PvP broken mechanics

[Frost]

Start listing them here:

- Multiple hits are procing talisman effects in each hit.

- Marksman passive on Desert Marauder is making talisman procs to proc 100% for every toon. Seens to happen only with Desert Marauder, Pyro Soldier seens normal.

- Passive Agression has no counter. If your team don't go first, you will be cc'ed and lose 100% time.

[Sparton_LOTB]

Thanks for making this thread.

At some point either this week or next week, me and Kaz would like to have more formal threads investigating specific characters to help improve the balance of PVP. These threads will go into specifics for what kinds of nerfs (if any) we should do to characters, or if there are alternative solutions we can do to help improve the balance of PVP without directly reducing the power or capabilities of characters.

We will have some of our own thoughts for solutions, but if you (or others) have ideas for what a fair adjustment would be to solve any of the problems listed, definitely post that so everyone can have a discussion about what would be fair to do that doesn't make a character useless/not able to do it's primary job in a meaningful capacity.

[R1ck]

There is a problem with gunner corrupt rescuer, Eddies can't be revive by her (is it normal?), so when in a team there are two dead chars being one of them an Eddie, she tries to revive the Eddie and she can't so the turn to revive someone is lost.

Another thing to check is the rate paralize talismans stun, I notice freezzing talismans trigger more often. Maybe my perception is wrong.

[Frost]

Thanks for making this thread.

At some point either this week or next week, me and Kaz would like to have more formal threads investigating specific characters to help improve the balance of PVP. These threads will go into specifics for what kinds of nerfs (if any) we should do to characters, or if there are alternative solutions we can do to help improve the balance of PVP without directly reducing the power or capabilities of characters.

We will have some of our own thoughts for solutions, but if you (or others) have ideas for what a fair adjustment would be to solve any of the problems listed, definitely post that so everyone can have a discussion about what would be fair to do that doesn't make a character useless/not able to do it's primary job in a meaningful capacity.

I'm not a fan of nerfs AT ALL, but sometimes there's nothing else you can do.

There are a lot of ideas in my mind, but busy at work and my 1st daughter will be born soon so I have a lot else to think too! (No, I won't bring my daughter to the slaughter :P)

One thing I want o see that is both a fix and a nerf is talisman procs only procing once in multiple-hit toons. Yeah, people will cry, I myself will cry, but for the health of PvP this must be done.

Also, the procs are kind strange. Freeze and Paralize talismans have the same proc chance, but freeze procs a lot while paralize almost never procs. I'd triple check all the proc rates of all talismans. And also check Marksman passive both in Desert Marauder and Pyro Soldier, it seens to be working different in both and seen to have some glitch with Desert Marauder.


What is giving me the creeps is how we can tune Prisoner in PvP w/o destroying him and not making another toon too strong. Prisoner alone is fine, but when you combo him with another high proc toon like Gunner Golden Son or with a heavy defense toon like Warrior Troll or with a Marksman Desert Marauder he's simply too powerfull. The only counter to that combo is to have a Prisoner yourself and pray the aoe heavy CC enemy not to get a perfect hit.

The first thing that came to my mind is that Passive Agression could be changed to negate a passive from a random enemy every round instead of all passives. Or maybe it steal a random passive for your entire team.

[MrFreeze]

Somethings definitely not right with freeze/paralyze. I have freeze on my yellow golden son. Usually freezes 2-3 enemies minimum on perfect hits. I put paralyze on there and was lucky to get 1-2.

Your always gonna have some characters that are more desirable in pvp than others. You could make everyone fight with the same generic team, but that'd be stupid. For the maxed players who are running maxed out everything, it's gonna almost always come down to who goes first. That's the problem. You could change things about these characters but it'd have to be drastic to make much difference I think. Even if you follow Frost's suggestion about talisman procs, if you make a team with 3-4 freeze tali characters plus that perfect hit passive, it's gonna do the same thing. Nerf the prisoner and you still got the blue bat. I think there's gonna be strong teams no matter what. Making it hurt less (points lost) when you lose, might help. I think it's gonna always come down to who goes first when you've got a couple strong teams going against each other.

[XcarecroW]

Nerfing multi hit chars to only proc once is bad idea, they are so common chars that easily everybody can have so everyone can do the same, and they usually dont have so much hp, so you want to make them useless? I see no problem here. Nerfing prisoner? Lots of people have it lately, i have one myself and i still lose many defenses, having him is not a win 100% everytime, i dont think he should be nerfed as well. There are many ways to counter teams, is not about crying like a child because you dont have those chars and want to nerf them. The people complainings is about who starts first usually wins, if you have a good team, it is almost a 100% win. And of course the bugs, paralisys talismans dont proc like freeze even with the same chance. Fix the desert marauder marksman to not proc the talismans 100% everytime, it seems ok in the assassin pyro soldier. And fix the thief talisman to not fill the fury bar with just one char perfect hit in the first round. Teams like Nicko's, that exploit all this things should not be permited, 2 tailgunners fury in 2 rounds? Are you kidding me? Even just one fury in the first round is enough to kill a team without a chance to do nothing, remember that tailgunners fury gives extra turn to the team if kills someone.
And if the devs still think that nerfing prisoner is a must, how about make him that he cant get affected by any status (stun, freeze, etc) and make his attack AOE.

[BillLion]

And if the devs still think that nerfing prisoner is a must, how about make him that he cant get affected by any status (stun, freeze, etc) and make his attack AOE.

If the Prisoner had to get nerfed then maybe a fair move would be to make his passive ability his power ability instead. Still gives him the powerful skill, but gives those who don't go first a fighting chance against an offensive onslaught.

[Frost]

Somethings definitely not right with freeze/paralyze. I have freeze on my yellow golden son. Usually freezes 2-3 enemies minimum on perfect hits. I put paralyze on there and was lucky to get 1-2.

Your always gonna have some characters that are more desirable in pvp than others. You could make everyone fight with the same generic team, but that'd be stupid. For the maxed players who are running maxed out everything, it's gonna almost always come down to who goes first. That's the problem. You could change things about these characters but it'd have to be drastic to make much difference I think. Even if you follow Frost's suggestion about talisman procs, if you make a team with 3-4 freeze tali characters plus that perfect hit passive, it's gonna do the same thing. Nerf the prisoner and you still got the blue bat. I think there's gonna be strong teams no matter what. Making it hurt less (points lost) when you lose, might help. I think it's gonna always come down to who goes first when you've got a couple strong teams going against each other.

I agree with some points, some teams and some toons are stronger than others, and end game players with everything maxed could go down to who strike first, but there's a difference between having a chance to win and having no chance to win. IMO having no chance to win is wrong.

The defeat and revenge mechanic is also really broken, as is the matchmaking. I dunno why high rank guys like Nicko, Pizzafryday, etc. keep attacking me, because they are 4000+ points and I'm 1300~ points. They never pop in my attack list, I wonder why I keep popping in their list. Shouldn't they also have the cap of ~1000 difference points like I have?

Also the endless attack/revenge cicle hurts a lot. Be attacked by the same player 5x times a day... The system is very strange. I think it should be like troopers: you can attack someone only once a day, and revenge only once. The beta playerbase is small? Ok, but I'd take it to have fewer people to attack/revenge every day than right now that I go to sleep and drop 300 points because high rank guys attack me multiple times.

Points system is also broken as I said. If I attack Nicko and win I get 24 points, but if he attacks me he also gets 24 points. If I attack someone with almost the same points I get only 10. Shouldn't we get less points the lower the rank the guy we attack? Like if I attack someone with 500 points I get 2, if I attack someone with 2000 points I get 24.

Again nothing personal against Nicko it's just he's a very good example to test things.

[Hypnos]

How about changing the prisoner's passive to: "disable random enemies' passives". In my opinion this is the perfect solution to this issue. Prisoner's passive still works, but luck is introduced for both teams and there is no certain winner every time.

[slauki]

Nerfing multi hit chars to only proc once is bad idea, they are so common chars that easily everybody can have so everyone can do the same, and they usually dont have so much hp, so you want to make them useless? I see no problem here.

it's absolutly necessary IMO to nerf them so that only the first hit procs or not, where's the fun then the guys always freezes 2/4 or 3/4 of the team? that's absurd, and i feel that some chars are more broken than others. so the gunner golden son is more broken then the assassin or the possessed multihit rockets i feel. cannot prove this, but it seems so.

The defeat and revenge mechanic is also really broken, as is the matchmaking.

Also the endless attack/revenge cicle hurts a lot. Be attacked by the same player 5x times a day... The system is very strange.

Points system is also broken as I said. .

totally agree with this...

To the prisoner:
the prisoner is okay, i wouldn't nerf him the only problem is that his passive cannot be counterd. so we need a way to counter him.
it would be enough to add the passive to some more characters, that would do the job. even a corrupt ox cultist would be great with this passive, so
maybe that would be a good option. the prisoner would stay as powerfull as he is but the other team would have have the chance to block passives as well.


OR: change the prisoner, so that he also removes passives of the own team.... that would be probably easy to do and would also be an option. if you want to use this guy, you also have no passives...