PvP broken mechanics

[Sparton_LOTB]

This is probably going to be a pretty large thread, so I won't be responding to everything, but there is a few things I want to touch on that I won't end up covering in eventual character-specific discussions.

The defeat and revenge mechanic is also really broken, as is the matchmaking. I dunno why high rank guys like Nicko, Pizzafryday, etc. keep attacking me, because they are 4000+ points and I'm 1300~ points. They never pop in my attack list, I wonder why I keep popping in their list. Shouldn't they also have the cap of ~1000 difference points like I have?

The most common complaint we've seen about matchmaking is seeing the same people over and over. The reason people at the top can see people way below them is if it was something like only seeing people within 1000 points of them, some of them would literally only see 1 other person, or in the case of ranks 3-10 of this writing only seeing 10-20 people (and if that's all you see and are consistently winning... you'll be pushing a lot of what you see below you, seeing even less people).

It's annoying, but it's largely a product of this being in beta and there being a limited pool of our playerbase having access to PVP. Once we have the full player base at it this'll be a bit more constrained, but there's not much we can do about that with a limited player pool, sadly.

Also the endless attack/revenge cicle hurts a lot. Be attacked by the same player 5x times a day... The system is very strange. I think it should be like troopers: you can attack someone only once a day, and revenge only once. The beta playerbase is small? Ok, but I'd take it to have fewer people to attack/revenge every day than right now that I go to sleep and drop 300 points because high rank guys attack me multiple times.

Basically the same answer as above; even though most people aren't attacking 100+ people a day, it'd start discouraging people from playing as they either only start matchmaking people way above them (punishing and asking for a loss) or matchmaking people way below them (basically bullying people who are weaker/not engaging as much).

(There's still the subject of the game encouraging people to revenge more than we expected people would; that's still on our radar as something to better constrain/discourage.)

Points system is also broken as I said. If I attack Nicko and win I get 24 points, but if he attacks me he also gets 24 points. If I attack someone with almost the same points I get only 10. Shouldn't we get less points the lower the rank the guy we attack? Like if I attack someone with 500 points I get 2, if I attack someone with 2000 points I get 24.

The points do scale based on how different your points are from your opponent already; if you can get 24 points against him, he's certainly getting less than the baseline 19 points from beating you. The reason the scaling isn't more aggressive is it would otherwise make it near impossible for people who more consistently win and climb higher to not immediately lose all that progress (since they have far fewer/no people with similar or better points than them). Obviously losing most of your progress from one day to the next is disheartening and also a problem we need to solve, but I don't think making it so top-ranked players cannot keep slowly climbing if they're investing in it will help people in the 1100-1800 VP range.

the point of using them, is their ultra hight damage. yeah they are glass cannons but did you see the thread where someone put 21+ burns on an enemy, that's ridiculously broken. you can burn down every enemy without a chance to counter. that's no nerf that's simply fixing a broken mechanic.

they can mutihit, that's perfectly okay, but they shouldn't abuse the talismans proc chance by doing that. that's the only point, and i bet this is not intended as well, it's simply a bug, like the multiple mark consume where you could do 108% damage to all enemies for 7 power....

This is basically the stance of the designers at Nodding Frog; multi-hit having multiple chances to proc talismans was never the intent. We will be fixing this in advance of PVP going live, because it's becoming increasingly clear that this one of the biggest factors that pushes the game too far into "go first and win" territory, which is inherently anti-competitive.

@Sparton, @Kaz. Have you thought about lowering the damage for PvP purposes only? It is very discouraging that whoever goes first wins. The damage set up is too high. You shouldn't be able to murder 2-3 characters in one turn (Not even with class advantage). The team that goes second should be able to still win the match, by setting up shields/healing/debufs etc. I believe that PvP should be about strategy not about whoever goes first for the kill.

It's something we're considering, but it's a fine balance to strike. If the damage reduction is too strong, durable Sentinels and damage shield status effects (Reflect Shields, Damage Reduction Shields, Magma Shields, etc) start to become way too powerful, making certain characters unkillable machines (there's one character in particular that we have concerns about, much to my chagrin). We want to look into options that could allow players to do this if they sacrifice other opportunities, but are not sure how long it would take to implement such ideas, which may instead come out around or after PVP goes worldwide.

For the most part, the most likely case we've anecdotally seen with people having teams 50-75% crushed in turn 1 usually boils down to one or both sides having glass cannon teams (which works well in PVE when you're just strong enough to do that to enemies, but is a lot less consistent in PVP) or is fighting at a rank well below where someone should naturally be. We're still gathering and analyzing data to see how widespread this is at various divisions and to help us guide VP point gains and losses to help naturally push people into ranges of points that best fit their power and skill levels.

[BillLion]

Obviously losing most of your progress from one day to the next is disheartening and also a problem we need to solve, but I don't think making it so top-ranked players cannot keep slowly climbing if they're investing in it will help people in the 1100-1800 VP range.

Thanks for the replies, Sparton. This is my greatest frustration right now -the Sisyphus factor. In Greek mythology Sisyphus was punished by having to roll a large boulder up a hill every day only to watch it fall back down the hill. He had to repeat this eternally. This is the current iteration of PVP -even after I spent some ironite after all.

I still love my suggestion to cut defensive trophy losses in 1/2.

[MrFreeze]

About the golden son and freeze talismans. I've got one, and I use it in my defense. Maxed talismans and skills and all. My defense only wins when I get really lucky. Without the perfect hit passive it's not all that great. My defense percentage is pretty sad.

[Zapathusara]

CC stands for CrowdControl, ie, Freeze/Stun/Taunt

@Prisioner: I believe making its Passive "steals" others passives leads to bugs. Made him disable a random passive, or better, disable all passives from all teams. This may leads to teams w different toons.

@MultHit: I agree its proc are messed up

Now, Sparton add a thing Im thinking recently. My team used to be a glass cannon army in first week. My GR had +3k magic w Ignore MR. Was a OHKO most of time. I notice that was overkill and started to add a sort of Health Talismans to all my main toons, wothout losing too many dmg output. And then I started to win even when I go second. I dont think I abbuse CC, despite having 5 full 50 sets of talismans in my rotating main attack. Ok, sometimes I buff Accuracy, but nothing like the broken mechanics. PvP demands more health. +2k attk/magic is enough most of time.

But I agree about the broken team ups / setups. Going second hurts a lot, but in a fair-normal match, u can turn over in attacks. In defenses, tanky sometimes work, but I basicly give up defenses teams for now.

(A bleed/permadeath 3 set-talisman would be nice)

[Nicko]

Certainly a Talisman adjustment is in order, though I will be sad to see that day

I kid! (Sort of ) But I get it. It's fair.

As far as nerfs, the Prisoners passive, etc there is one more option everyone has to them - be smart about who you attack or revenge. A level 87 player attacked me five times in a row today. Lost every single time.

I think Killhouse wrote an excellent analysis of his rise to the top that first week, and an important part of that was knowing who to attack and who to avoid. He has no Prisoner. He had no Dessert Maurader. He was the top player

I'm not saying some minor adjustments aren't needed. I cried a bit about the Corrupt General nerf before I played PvP and now see its importance. But how far do we take this?

I'm going to cite an example of my own stupidity and that's GMACs defense. Two maxed Angels, a Corrupt General, and Grim Reaper

No Maurader. No Prisoner. But if he goes first? He usually wipes me out because the Angels and Grim Reaper have no issues doing 15k + of damage AND stunning


I'd love to have a Troll. It would really help me in this situation - but I don't. My bad decision to attack him without a Troll or shield - but I get tempted and cocky - and often slaughtered

If this was pure strategy, like chess, we'd all have the same characters. But this isn't chess. Some of us have put a lot of time - and some money - into building teams that include rare or more powerful characters. Neutralize that and the specialness is gone.

So certainly some minor rebalancing is in order. I think Slauki has had some great comments - fix the "broken" mechanics, but not over tinker with damage adjustments, nerfs, etc

I personally feel that the win/loss point system is the most critical isssue affecting every player in the game. Couldn't imagine if this were live and there were thousands of people out there gunning after high ranked players like me and Pizza Friday - we'd be in the negative by morning!

[Nicko]

Now, Sparton add a thing Im thinking recently. My team used to be a glass cannon army in first week. My GR had +3k magic w Ignore MR. Was a OHKO most of time. I notice that was overkill and started to add a sort of Health Talismans to all my main toons, wothout losing too many dmg output. And then I started to win even when I go second. I dont think I abbuse CC, despite having 5 full 50 sets of talismans in my rotating main attack. Ok, sometimes I buff Accuracy, but nothing like the broken mechanics. PvP demands more health. +2k attk/magic is enough most of time.

This. I win going second on a very consistent basis - including most Prisoner teams - by choosing which teams to attack, character selection, and then building those characters talismans accordingly.

Aur0ra85 had been saying for a long time - before PvP - the poor drop rate of green runes was a killer because most toons ultimately could use at least one green talisman for health. Yes, you sacrifice some damage, but what good is damage if you're wiped out with two hits?

Great example of a strategy that is open to everyone - one that can make a huge difference - yet many overlook it

[zamasu]

It's something we're considering, but it's a fine balance to strike. If the damage reduction is too strong, durable Sentinels and damage shield status effects (Reflect Shields, Damage Reduction Shields, Magma Shields, etc) start to become way too powerful, making certain characters unkillable machines (there's one character in particular that we have concerns about, much to my chagrin). We want to look into options that could allow players to do this if they sacrifice other opportunities, but are not sure how long it would take to implement such ideas, which may instead come out around or after PVP goes worldwide.

For the most part, the most likely case we've anecdotally seen with people having teams 50-75% crushed in turn 1 usually boils down to one or both sides having glass cannon teams (which works well in PVE when you're just strong enough to do that to enemies, but is a lot less consistent in PVP) or is fighting at a rank well below where someone should naturally be. We're still gathering and analyzing data to see how widespread this is at various divisions and to help us guide VP point gains and losses to help naturally push people into ranges of points that best fit their power and skill levels.

I can see where you are coming from. But I def think that it needs a small tweak, maybe take a look a class advantages, I have seen a full HP built AG been murdered with one warrior hit and I don't think that should be that way.

Can I ask you one more question? how is determined who goes first? it seems like when I am in a win streak and continue winning, 99% of the time I go second.

CC stands for CrowdControl, ie, Freeze/Stun/Taunt

@Prisioner: I believe making its Passive "steals" others passives leads to bugs. Made him disable a random passive, or better, disable all passives from all teams. This may leads to teams w different toons.

Thanks!

And I agree that Prisoner's passive is way too overpowered and there's no way to counterattack him (unless you have another Prisoner). I think one possible solution would be to introduce new characters that can do something about it.

This. I win going second on a very consistent basis - including most Prisoner teams - by choosing which teams to attack, character selection, and then building those characters talismans accordingly.

Aur0ra85 had been saying for a long time - before PvP - the poor drop rate of green runes was a killer because most toons ultimately could use at least one green talisman for health. Yes, you sacrifice some damage, but what good is damage if you're wiped out with two hits?

Great example of a strategy that is open to everyone - one that can make a huge difference - yet many overlook it

I like the idea of counter picking characters. PvP should be about strategy not about who goes first but the problem with counter picking is that there are not many characters where to pick from, with the current drop rates getting a rare character is almost impossible. I've been playing since the game came out and I still don't have Corrupt General, AG, prisoner, etc.. fu** I don't even have a Carriage Rider lol

And btw, stop attacking me lol

[CanyptianFit]

So I couldn't stand it anymore and I finally bit the bullet and "moved to Canada". I found out that 1/3 of my troops also live in Canada! Hey neighbors!

So I've had about a day and a half playing with PvP and it is cool, and my experience is limited, but felt compelled to write.

There is a lot of whining going on. It seems like people are expecting to have a single 4 man team that wins all the time. That isn't how it works. Nicko nailed it above by saying it all comes down to toon selection, and strategy. I like you Nicko! I actually don't mind going second and, like Nicko, I pick my toons strategically against each opponent and their team, and have faired very well. I don't have the prisoner, and by himself, he's not a problem. I've beat a ton of prisoner teams going second. They don't scare me. It is when someone thinks through the pairing of the prisoner with other toons that can make that character difficult. Every character has a nemisis, except the prisoner...although I guess another prisoner is his nemisis? I'm willing to accept that if that is what the developers choose. I'm not scared of the Corrupt General, again every character has a nemesis/weakness to exploit. My defense loses regularly. I accept that, because I could easily beat me too.

I actually laugh after a tough back and forth battle that I lose. I failed to identify the foundational element of the defense. I just go back and win, order doesn't matter. But I really enjoy reading the defense to try and figure out the "weakness" that I will need to exploit to win. There are some creative MotherF**'s out there.

I've read whining about multi-hitters and trolls and other characters and I don't think it is valid. I demonstrated the 21 DoT affects in one round, but that was an extreme example of a legitimate play. One where the Warrior Golden son would be worse than a glass canon, a glass canon shattered put back together that would break if the wind blew on it. In other words, I could never replicate that performance in PvP and win. I can't replicate that in the Cosmos either, I don't think. If you tried it in PvP it is a losing strategy for sure. I hope the developers realize this and take the complaints for what they are. Bugs should be fixed, but changing mechanics and nerfing should not be done lightly.

Sparton, I'd love to be on the toon nerf advisory feedback team.

This game is like an ecosystem, and changing the mechanics (a la multi-hitter approach) is very dangerous, and the wrong solution IMHO. The multi-hitters have a weakness too and they have a place in the game as designed.

So here I sit with 40k trooper points and a decision. Do I buy 10 G/A souls or do I get 8 skill shards. Do I go for the prisoner or do I strengthen my team to fight him. It is my choice to make, we all have a choices.

My 2.5 cents Canadian.

[The Educated fool]

Interesting comments, CanyptianFit, and I agree with you 100%, the nerf bat should definitely be used sparingly!

I also continue to agree--hard--with BillLion's suggestion to cut defense points lost in half, but that's another matter.

P.S.: Get the skill shards, man!

[Sparton_LOTB]

I can see where you are coming from. But I def think that it needs a small tweak, maybe take a look a class advantages, I have seen a full HP built AG been murdered with one warrior hit and I don't think that should be that way.

I don't think I've ever seen an Angel of Fear (the hardest-hitting Warrior I've ever encountered) do more than about 20k to a Sentinel (3 hits of ~6k each), and most top-end Allied General builds should have at least 30k HP. There might be weirdness when you're not talking about level 100's with all 5 star talismans or if buffs aren't being taken into account (which only affect Angel of Fear so much, due to how much of it's damage is based on Max HP and it being True Damage and therefore not affected with Physical/Magic Charge and Def/MR Down).

If you have any specific examples where that's not the case (am I missing something and typical Angel of Fears can output more before buffs, or is there an even better single-target damager that doesn't take a setup?), then that's definitely interesting to know. The Angel of Fear is one of the premiere single-target damagers, so I don't really want to nerf it for doing it's job well unless it does it's job too well.

Can I ask you one more question? how is determined who goes first? it seems like when I am in a win streak and continue winning, 99% of the time I go second.

It's a coin flip; 50/50 chance. We hope to add a visualization at the start of battle for this in a future update, too (you may have seen it incorrectly pop out mid battle).