PvP broken mechanics

[Nicko]

Agreed Sag!

And interestingly enough - as I type - the #5 player is currently a level 94 player named Marcio

Is he some tactical genius who has managed to outmaneuver all the level 100 players? Does he have some insane overpowered team that compensates for a lower ranking?

Highly unlikely. He likely attacks and revenges smart.

[Sparton_LOTB]

Does such a defense exist? Cause I know I haven't faced one yet I couldn't beat repeatedly...and seems like I'm always going second

Well, maybe there's much you know that the rest of us don't... but that wouldn't surprise me!

That's also why we're wanting to be more open about discussing these kinds of (potential) changes, because if there's stuff we're missing, then sure, we're happy to tuck the nerf bat away.

I would respectfully counter with this question, noble Sparton: Has not a person who has put in the time to invest in characters and test specific combinations of characters in an effort to earn a very high win percentage (bug-exploiters aside, and luck notwithstanding) earned the right to reap the benefits of such efforts?

We do agree in that, but I guess it's more a matter of where we think it's fair for that to land. Personally, I agree that "a very high win percentage" is something that someone with a massive collection and excellent matchup knowledge should have, but it worries me if anything but the top few players have 95% or higher win rates (assuming you're in a competitive division for your progression). The multi-hit-proccing-talismans-multiple-times bug obviously skews things, but I don't think it'll be at a place we'll be happy with after fixing just that bug, but we'll be taking our time and still looking to do more in the way of buffs to alternatives than doing nerfs if we can.

To the point of my emphasis in your question: given the current (or even projected) roster limitations in place, is it actually even possible to collect every character in the game in the first place? And, as such, do (or should) these limitations render such questions of acceptable win percentage moot?

Assuming you disregard most of the 1 star and 2 star characters (there's a few gems, but most are fodder for the sake of PVE), yes, there should be barely enough capacity. We're also planning to add more character inventory space in the next update (one of our programmers resolved the task that let us work around the technical problem that was blocking us before earlier this week), so it will keep pace with new content releases until Sacrifice arrives.

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Regarding the Prisoner, I want to stress that we specifically do not want to nerf him if we can at all help it. I don't want this to become too much of a Prisoner rant thread, though... we'll discuss him more in detail later.

[Shaolin85london]

C'mon Sag - every kid gets a trophy!

Without mincing words, the difference here is the Prisoner/Desert Maurader combo. But there have been some epic battles tonight between Sag and myself - all day actually - and our Prisoners are neutralizing each other

We've both lost some battles but the majority of the time we've won as attackers - and I've gone second a ton of times - and I'm sure he has as well

The Prisoner can be beaten. Consistently. Please fix the broken Talismans but leave the characters alone. And if you're afraid of the Prisoner/Maurader combo cause you have no Prisoner? Attack someone else! It's not rocket science! Plenty of other teams to attack. A combination of hard work and a lot of hours, luck, and some money spent on the game has given players like me and Sag solid teams. Everyone has that option. Very few have the Prisoner/Maurader combo - why change the game around a statistically irrelevant minority? Prisoners have been popping up like weeds anyway since the Christmas event. And of course I have a vested interest. But many others like Shaolin85london and The Educated Fool have piped in recently with the same sentiments - because where does it end?

Exactly, why to waste and to vanish time, dedication, money and energy of people spent into, just because it's a 5* extremely rare? There is no point here, prisoner is not immortal, he can die, it's Just built following his balance. Instead why don't introduce new toons in the game who can at least counter attack prisoner ability? Nerfing existent chars isn't the Way to get there, I think that is a sort of lack of respect in players confront. Devs can do better than this.

[slauki]

While i agree with most of your statements guys, i would only like to add one thought:

I fully agree, everyone should't be able to beat every possible combination, since that would ruin the fun and neglect the effort many people put into this game. If someone invested much time/money he should have an substantial advantage over a causal player.
But in theory every combination should have their nemesis. So if anyone has every possible toon, and knows how to use it perfectly, he should be able to outmaneuver every defense out there with pretty high %.

That's my theory of balance at least. Every charater should have a counter character. There are multiple ways to reach that. You can nerf characters,
you can add new characters you can add passives to old characters or buff them, till some point where a good equlibrium is reached.

I agree, i wouldn't be happy to see a huge nerfbat on many characters out there. I would like to see the bugfixes, changes in this ridiculous pointig system and some more balance to the gameplay, than i feel pvp would be very good. It is pretty good so far, but this thread has pointed out substantial leaks and i hope we will see some sensitive adjustments soon.

[MrFreeze]

We'll soon be at a point where every defense at the top is prisoner/DM. Take those two, mix in a golden son and any Eddie, and you got lotbs first meta. You can counter DM by himself with a hellhound. No counter if they're together unless you also have the prisoner. No surviving two rounds of freeze regardless of what team or build you have. I know it must be nice looking at all those defensive holds, but do you guys really want to fight the same defense over and over. I've seen everyone switching to some form of this setup. Once it's live and everyone's in, it's all your gonna see. It'll be, go first or die, unless you have a prisoner. Sounds boring to me.

theres another game I mess around with thats pvp is like this. Everyone runs the same team. I barely play pvp in that game it's so monotonous.

[Sag7272]

When PvP began, for me at last, everyone was running a troll, now I hardly see one from times to times it was reputed as a game breaker though, now it's prisoner/DM combo...
Have to keep in mind that without shards prisoner but for his passive is average at best as for Marauder, if they go 2nd it's defeat 90% of time... Kind of balance with greater odds of winning first round, with a troll and a sentinel bboy you can win ran by AI after several turns but odds of winning on 1st round are lowered too it's a matter of witch strategy you choose to adopt...
For now, to me, even while using it the problem is the multiple hits with multiple freeze/stun chances without those one or two cleansers and you are good to go Marauder or not, not having anyone to cleanse is a bad strategy not an unfair disadvantage...

[MrFreeze]

It'll be interesting to see how it changes once they fix the multiple proc thing. Once this goes live I don't expect to be able to keep up regardless of what happens. I think it would suck though if there's one defensive team that dominates the upper ranks. You either have that setup or you don't. I personally think it would be more fun with more variety. With all that said, would I run that team right now if I had them? Hell yeah I would!

[Sag7272]

I personally think it would be more fun with more variety. With all that said, would I run that team right now if I had them? Hell yeah I would!

As I do :P
On a more realistic note, it's fun to tinker around with defence and obviously working on something else for future since it definitely can't hold as is...

According to my testings on defense tests and GoD farming probability for stun/freeze go down significantly without the multiple hits, by Marauder or by mashing buttons you rarely see more than two toons disabled at same time even with 4 sets of effects tallismans... My Golden Son have kind of an advantage for now... But any good cleanser will soon have a chance me think...

[Nicko]

Well, maybe there's much you know that the rest of us don't... but that wouldn't surprise me!

That's also why we're wanting to be more open about discussing these kinds of (potential) changes, because if there's stuff we're missing, then sure, we're happy to tuck the nerf bat away.



We do agree in that, but I guess it's more a matter of where we think it's fair for that to land. Personally, I agree that "a very high win percentage" is something that someone with a massive collection and excellent matchup knowledge should have, but it worries me if anything but the top few players have 95% or higher win rates (assuming you're in a competitive division for your progression). The multi-hit-proccing-talismans-multiple-times bug obviously skews things, but I don't think it'll be at a place we'll be happy with after fixing just that bug, but we'll be taking our time and still looking to do more in the way of buffs to alternatives than doing nerfs if we can.



Assuming you disregard most of the 1 star and 2 star characters (there's a few gems, but most are fodder for the sake of PVE), yes, there should be barely enough capacity. We're also planning to add more character inventory space in the next update (one of our programmers resolved the task that let us work around the technical problem that was blocking us before earlier this week), so it will keep pace with new content releases until Sacrifice arrives.

---

Regarding the Prisoner, I want to stress that we specifically do not want to nerf him if we can at all help it. I don't want this to become too much of a Prisoner rant thread, though... we'll discuss him more in detail later.

Thanks for the response Sparton - it's always appreciated!

I'm not sure what you meant by that first answer - I read it as you HAVE found a defense you can't beat going second. I personally have not. I'll use my own as an example since it's been cited quite a bit lately. When I won the DM I put that defense together, and now face many similar defenses. I routinely beat them going second - but I have a Prisoner. If you don't have a Prisoner and go second? Good luck! There have been a few who have appeared here and told tales of victory going second, but it's almost impossible. Perhaps that's what you were referring to

But to Slauki's point - every character should have a counter - and there is one for this combo. He's called the Prisoner.

I think Sag's Hellhound/CG analogy is a good one. I would imagine if you're facing a CG/DM combo - no Prisoner in the mix - without a Hellhound you'll have as much luck going second against that defense as someone without a Prisoner has going against mine. And frankly, Prisoners seem to be as common as Hellhounds these days...

I know this combo doesn't work the same with an Assassin Pyro soldier - I've tried it - his Perfect Hit doesn't trigger the same. The DM triggers more like me playing manually - and DM seems much less common than APS

With all that being said - I hear what Mr Freeze is saying. I'm sitting here typing while owning the combo in question; I'd perhaps feel like him on the other side of the fence. At the same time I've put a ridiculous amount of time into this game - and some money too - and so I would think my defense SHOULD be really strong. But not unbeatable.

I initially griped about the Corrupt General nerf and it ended up being a good thing. We all want this game to be fun, so I appreciate this dialog and look forward to seeing what you bring to the table. While this isn't a democracy - you guys ultimately calls the shots - it would be great if there was at least some dialog about your proposed way to handle this before implementation as it is an issue that is pretty significant.

[Nicko]

When PvP began, for me at last, everyone was running a troll, now I hardly see one from times to times it was reputed as a game breaker though, now it's prisoner/DM combo...
Have to keep in mind that without shards prisoner but for his passive is average at best as for Marauder, if they go 2nd it's defeat 90% of time... Kind of balance with greater odds of winning first round, with a troll and a sentinel bboy you can win ran by AI after several turns but odds of winning on 1st round are lowered too it's a matter of witch strategy you choose to adopt...
For now, to me, even while using it the problem is the multiple hits with multiple freeze/stun chances without those one or two cleansers and you are good to go Marauder or not, not having anyone to cleanse is a bad strategy not an unfair disadvantage...

Really good point. With my glass cannon approach if I don't go first it's lights out for me. But other teams I've faced - often Sentinel heavy - can be deadly throughout the match and survive much longer than my defense does

If you attack a Prisoner/DM combo without a Prisoner and they have a Golden Son on the team, I don't think a cleanser will help if you go second - cause he'll be frozen too. It's the talisman issue at work again...

And I haven't been using a Cleanser at all - though I did just level up my Mummy Eddie and experimented with him a tiny bit - but I have other tricks up my sleeve