I really don't understand how Relics are supposed to work.

[Yup]

This makes little sense to me....

I fight a PvP battle... Characters were nothing out of the ordinary, G Lilith, Cyborg, Horus, M Lilith... beaten that set up a great deal... but... I lose.. no big deal clearly the Ai was giving the boost it gives.

Fight the same team again... and lose again. Pretty rare for me, but not impossible.

So the 3rd time in I check relics....

That team had MAYBE 4 relics.. global health around level 7 and then global ATK and Mag at level 2.. and then typically class HP at about level 4-6. That was it.. not a great many relics.... But compare that to my relics.. full HP global and class, level 4 or better for everything else, level 10 Fury...

Theoretically the relics I have should have made quick work of that team in all 3 instances. So then how are relics calculated??? Is THAT the AI Boost? That sometimes the AI merely ignores relics or boosts relics that are NOT present??? There's no reason whatsoever I would lose to that team twice (I won the 3rd battle). I had at least 100% more HP per character via relics. I had at least a 40% or better boost to all other stats.... so why was it not a quick battle?

Note that even after killing the M Lilith that team was more resilient that it should have been and it wasn't due to the Eternity talismans clearly on Horus.

[Liebhild]

http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?10485-Why-invest-in-relics

[Leviathan]

Hi Yup.

It's difficult to say exactly what happened or why you lost those 2 battles without a more complete picture (i.e. your team set up, attacks used, talismans present etc.).

Regarding how Relics work, they modify the base stats of characters, and they are always active in any battle. You will see the most meaningful increases in characters that have a higher default base stat. Also, there is no 'AI boost' present in the game. AI uses the same system as our 'auto-play' feature.

I hope that helps!

[Liebhild]

...and all fairy tales are real stories

[Yup]

Hi Leviathan,

That's the thing... I use pretty much the same team. For the 3rd battle, I beat this team rather easily. But the first two battles were a near impossible uphill struggle. Not because of specific moves, but because of the impact they had. It was as if I had 4 relics and the other team had 20. If I fight the same team, with the same team, several times in a row and twice there's no way I'm winning... and the third time all I need is 3/4 of 1 turn.. well....I realize that the specific battles would need to be examined and no one really cares or wants to do that. Not faulting anyone there.

I'm sorry but I do not believe the "no Ai boost" claims. I understand stats may not be boosted, but accuracy absolutely appears boosted at times by 15-20% - talismans fire more, extra turns near double-digit values for the AI team when I can't even get 1, etc. I've tested this theory with a PHP random generator. It's clearly not my perception. There's a marked difference in results at 35% and results at 50%. The ONLY way M Lilith (or any "extra turn" character) can get 6/7 or more turns in a row is if the accuracy is around 50% or greater. In dozens of tests at 35% the maximum extra turns should be around 3 or 4, and even that should be very rare. Most often at 35% it's 2 maybe 3, which is what I've always experienced for the Attack team.

Now multiply this by all possible accuracy options - talisman buffs, extra turns, negative buff inflictions, stealing buffs ... and if the character has a native 85% chance due to skill shards, you are now looking at a 100% chance when the AI gets it's boost. There are absolutely battles where the Ai is favored.

My suspicion, and why I started this thread, is that Relics ALSO may be factored by accuracy. As in, the +30% Magic Resistance has a % chance of acting. But there's no data or even discussion about relics in this way. If you say they are "always on" then I believe that and it's merely the other aspects boosted by accuracy that I keep seeing.

I can say, my full power Alex Ed, should EASILY defeat a full powered Cyborg Ed in every possible situation and talisman combo. 1 for 1, there's no way Cyborg beats Alex. Throw in relics and that gap expands greatly. It's the support team with boosts that make things more complex.

[DanielRacy]

There is definetely something with the AI. Horus/Corrupt General stun is ridiculous. I don't know if it is a boost or some kind of handicap or whatever, but something is up there. No doubt. That S Valkyrie (or priestess, don't remember now) counter attack is not 35% on AI, no way.

[Amarthir]

Lol, the devs could literally show you the exact coding involving the computer A.I. and you would still say there's a hidden boost.

[Yup]

Amarthir.. I doubt the devs "literally" even know the exact code controlling all of PvP. As stated, sure there's no stat boost.. but denying the accuracy boost is playing dumb. There absolutely no other explanation for a character getting 6/7/8 turns in a row. Even RNG isn't that "lucky".

[Porron87]

I have also felt even disgusted about M Lilith extra turns (no less than 3 times every time I fight it). And my samurai eddie with full basic attack and accuracy buff rarely gets more than 2 extra turns.

Also the stun chance in corrupt general/horus has made me use immunity talismans in some characters so as to not get stunned at least in the first round.

[Amarthir]

I never really pay attention to my fights. I just win them.

[CamiloEgea]

I also think there’s something going on. I have won battles against your team Yup, and against the top 5 (except you, damn shaolinlondo :D) and pretty much everyone in the top 100, and I’m not saying I have a great win rate, (it’s arround 78/85% in attack and 30/35% in defense while being in the top 100), but my highest relic is at lvl 4, mostly are lvl 2 and two or three at lvl 3. That makes no sense for me, even through I’m confident I have great characters on my team and a pretty good and creative talisman setup. Players with more leveled relics should be kicking the ass of players like me. For me, the relic system is not fair and promoves the unbalance of the game in PvP, but given the fact of the relics being a real thing (and expensive, and hard to get), it is also not fair for the game to be working in that way. In another topic I would also say that magus Lilith has also made the arena boring and sometimes unplayable, because of the Destiny talisman set, (and I do have both of them, but I’m not using them), almost every player in the top 100 have M Lilith, the prisoner, and Iron Eddie or Doomsday Eddie (not talking about you, Yup). When every team is a copy of the last one, the game becomes very boring.

[CamiloEgea]

I forgot one thing, fury relics does seem to work correctly, I can always see the difference between my team and leveled teams.

[Yup]

players with more leveled relics should be kicking the ass of players like me.


That's my thought. It's not really about win/loss. Everyone wins and everyone is beatable. But really if someone has massive relics, they should be winning fairly easily against a team with fewer relics. Well, at least if there's a gap between the relics - i.e. level 3 relic vs level 10 relic. Of course, a great deal depends on characters, talismans, and actual moves. I'm not stating "more relics should always win". But certainly more relics means you should find winning a tad more effortless.

I see this at weekly rollover... 99.9999% of the battles the first few hours after rollover are practically mindless auto-play wins for me. Clearly thats due to relics and skill shards against teams without those. But it kind of looks to me as the week progresses, either relics start to factor less or... there's some other thing resulting in some sort of attempted "strength balance." Which is fine. Even considering battles against the top 15 players... at rollover matches against them are way easier than they are Friday night. (Understanding they may have added relics during the week, I certainly do.)

I realize the devs are probably never going to fully disclose what factors into match ups, enemy lists, etc. And this is one of those things that, while I don't mean to imply any sort of collusion whatsoever, it does seem like there's some point or trigger which alters the amount of weight relics may have. i.e X points and relics effect -10% or something. It could also be just sheer number of fights. That's how Shoalindo's team gets so tough.. he/she fights way more than I'll ever have time for. I can beat that team at times, but not regularly. So once you hit top of the list teams with similar relics seem to be similar. But it seems the more you fight the better a team's defense may be. It's the teams with few relics near the top that make little sense to me. How is someone with lvl 4 relics even coming close to competing with those that have lvl 8-10 relics regardless of characters?

And for the record an 75%A/35%D rate is not a bad rate at all.

[Sick]

This thread is interesting and the stuff described happened to me too. There are low level teams which are unbeatable for one or two fights, there is definitely a difference if you fight the top level teams at the start of the week or at the end and there is something else which is strange. Maybe others experienced the same. There are some players in the game which are extremely hard to beat for me. I am not talking about top level players. They are hard to beat, but this is normal. I am talking about players ranked below me. Maybe between rank 50 and 150. There are a few players against which I loose very often. They don’t have a special setup and they don’t have a lot of relics. Surely it is not about my team, because I never change my attack team.

[Cefiar]

Yup: Yeah I hit #1 at the start of this week on a winning streak, basically cos of 100 wins in a row from rollover. Then I lost a game to someone way down at 2200 points (I was at ~3300 points at that stage I think). From that point on, things got more difficult and the losses mounted up. After a while I decided not to really bother anymore, simply cos I was starting to dig into my ironite reserves and didn't have a huge amount left to throw into SoW. Also, there is only so much time in a day to play, and lots of other things that I'd prefer to do than stare at my tablet all the time.

FWIW: A LOT of those battles were against people who were ~1900 points. The game just kept throwing them at me as I completed each set of 10 battles. This is probably why it's important to play hard on that first day (cos the system throws these people who have the same rank/points at you cos everyone is ranked the same), but you need to keep playing hard and I suspect the relics will help the further into the week you get. I basically threw all my winnings (and those from Gauntlet) into relics, but as you say, they don't always seem to make that much of a difference.

[Liebhild]

For me the fact the the [moderators] don't even think that there could be a bug involved, is the evidence that the defense bonus and Relics reduction is existing.

They made this, so that new players get a chance, otherwise they would run away screaming.

If [moderators] would say it is there, we could like it or not, so it is simply another fraud of the [moderators].

Where is the guy that wanted to sue them? If someone would see the sourcecode they would be in big trouble.

[Stormseye]

Perfect example today. Running my final burst to secure a spot and come across a non standard team of

Edward the Great
Horus
Prisoner
Wrath

“This should be an easy win” as there is no blocker. Primordials and Eternity so thats a given buf I notice Wrath has Strike. Having single hitters, I focus on Horus first and toss a couple of hits but Wrath counters every attack. Don’t keep a lot of blue buffs since they are too easily removed. They proceed to kill my Destiny Magus on my own turn, and stun the AG. I have Exhaust and perfect corruption on my remaining team. They finish the job in short order on their turn. EtG never even got to Fury. This was a player ranked 2700 with no relics higher than 3. I have over half relics maxed.

Rematch...I win toss again and proceed to kill his entire team before they have a turn.

Earlier today I faced one Shaolin ‘s manifestations (he has been changing it every few hours) and he killes every ally except my Sentinel Lillith on the opening turn.

It is really hard to accept there is no boost of any kind. Calling it “the same AI as auto-play” does not mean there is not something odd in the code because when I started trying to crack top 100 I would be on the losing end of a battle down 2 allies to their full team so rather than concede I would just run it on Auto and was surprised to see how many fights I actually won considering my team would be near defeat.

[Icarus]

Actually that declaration ''the same AI as auto-play'' may be not so correct, maybe most of us may remember the ''old days'' teams with Grim Reaper, each one of them. And then having a Grim reaper and going in autoplay, the difference? When i go to farm with my Grim reaper (example), it just does 1 or 2 resets if im lucky, but besides that, very normal. Now what happens when i went to the arena? BOOM, the enemy team's Grim reaper has 3 resets minimal, and also Extra turn on his buff before proceeding to attack.
What is rare? Every time before attacking, he does that buff and then he attacks, is a classic and one of the older patterns to these days, and he does everytime while gaining that extra turn almost everytime also.

Now with that someone must realize how familiar it is with other AI patterns such as Eternity Eddie and M Lilith Extra turns, and of course that Stun from Corrup general that seems a bit weird...

[Liebhild]

This arena event shows again pretty clear, that something is totally wromng with the relics.

Players with almost no relics seem to be stronger, than "stronger" teams.

If this this is not a bug (and I am sure that it isn't a bug), that is the same frauf shit like the defense bonus.

Hey [moderator], why can't you be honest to the players and tell what you are doing there, do we have to contact again Apple/Google before you start to tell the truth?

[CamiloEgea]

Liebhild, chill a little bit dude... We all feel frustrated because of different aspects of the game, but there’s no reason for being this angry :) enjoy the game while it’s possible, and if you’re not enjoying it nowadays, quit. Being rude won’t solve the problems of the game. And you will likely banned from the forum :/