May 2019 Tuning Discussion - PRELIMINARY

[Kaz_LOTB]

This is the main post to discuss tuning changes that are in an upcoming update.

You can see the details for the preliminary tuning adjustments in the Game Updates forum post (https://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?11772-May-2019-Tuning-PRELIMINARY&p=98325#post98325).

[Esquatcho]

Whoa, will take a bit to digest the arena changes! Apart from that, happy to see all the other tweaks.

Anyway, looks like this week I have a chance of hitting warlord for the first time, so hopefully I can get that achievement before all this comes through and changes it all up! lol

First thought on arena levels is that the VP is a bit too high by maybe 500-1k, at least around that King region it is imo....

[Yup]

See what happens when people spend money and refill refill refill refill to get to 10k points...

[Esquatcho]

Yeah I suppose.... At least the awards for 1,2,3 will be worth it finally! Or will that mean even more people will try to compete for it!?

[Fudjo]

A bit odd that the cutoff for the King tiers goes from top-25 to top-1000.

[Blade]

Good to see an increase in Ironite rewards and the introduction of cosmic talis and some other good things as rewards!

BUT the VP requirements alone and their combination with #rank (or is it "one or the other" in the future?) plus the IC reward steps are completely out of line if the table is correct!

@ Kaz I have 2 questions: Does the number of VP per win/lose also change or do they stay as they are right now? What is the reset amount of VP after the weekly rollover? It is 1900 at the moment.

Example: last week I had 3906 VP with an unknown number of wins (due to display bug...should be somewhere 170-185 I'd guess) that resulted in rank #19.
With the new tier system, the rank would be Emperor 2, but the VP would result in King 2 - which is 5 (!) tiers lower! There seems something odd.

Thanks in advance!

[Bakura]

Hey Kaz,
The brand new Gambler Eddie has a broken passive, he has no affect on immunity, in cosmos or arena.
Please add that to the update. It really sux when we buy stuff and right outta the box, it's broken.
Remember Reaper talis?
Thanks.

[Kaz_LOTB]

Does the number of VP per win/lose also change or do they stay as they are right now? What is the reset amount of VP after the weekly rollover? It is 1900 at the moment.

The VP earned remains the same, but the reset amount is higher, currently planned to clamp at 2500.


Hey Kaz,
The brand new Gambler Eddie has a broken passive, he has no affect on immunity...

It appears there is a situation where if you go first, then he is indeed not transforming immunity on the first turn of battle only. I've passed this issue on to our QA for further investigation. It should work in all other instances however (i.e. Every turn after the first, at the start of your turn when you go second, etc.) Hopefully it is just a data fix and can make it into the next update.

An additional point on the current rankings, these are only reflective of the reward and tuning changes for the Arena. They do not capture additional work that is being done to revamp the structure, pacing, and challenge of the Arena itself, which is also in the works. The Arena will be updated in iterations over the course of the next few releases as feature work on it gets completed (not this next release, but the mid June update and beyond).

-Kaz

[scott-5496]

Good news! More information more than welcome on what these changes may be!

[Daviangers]

Even more Mystic Eddie buffs, Christmas is coming early this year

If only freezing glance was worth using...like ever. Oh well, most eddies have at least 1 useless skill so its understandable. Other than that Mystic is unbelievably useful right now, but I dont see him much in the arena so hes not too overtuned. Love it

[Bakura]

It appears there is a situation where if you go first, then he is indeed not transforming immunity on the first turn of battle only. I've passed this issue on to our QA for further investigation. It should work in all other instances however (i.e. Every turn after the first, at the start of your turn when you go second, etc.) Hopefully it is just a data fix and can make it into the next update.
-Kaz
Thanks for responding.
Well, I've used Gambler in many arena battles and saw nothing at all the whole time.
Perfect example is when Assassin Banshee is done and then it's my turn, nothing. I always have to remove the whole teams immunity another way.

[Yup]

Bakura, check if his passive is disabled. If it is, then no removal of immunity. Because his passive is relatively subtle, and some of the latest talismans/characters deal out silver passive disable, I overlooked that aspect a few times and was thinking "WTF!?" :)

[Kaz_LOTB]

Perfect example is when Assassin Banshee is done and then it's my turn, nothing.

Keep in mind that Gambler Eddie is only intended to remove normal Immunity and not Perfect Immunity, as per his description. Perhaps this is what you are referring to outside of the issue I pointed out above.

-Kaz

[Zugzwang]

This is the main post to discuss tuning changes that are in an upcoming update.

You can see the details for the preliminary tuning adjustments in the Game Updates forum post (https://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?11772-May-2019-Tuning-PRELIMINARY&p=98325#post98325).

Hi Kaz,

Serious question here (not trying to be facetious at all). You said new talismans and toons slowing down in the coming months would be ideal. Is this actually going to happen? Some players want more time between to enjoy what’s already been released before something else comes out. In my case I have, but have not used Gambler Eddie yet because I’m still working with older Eddies and talisman combos. I hear he’s pretty good but by the time I get to him he will probably be replaced by a newer and stronger Eddie if the pace doesn’t slow down a bit. If I keep jumping to the new stuff so soon it’s not as much fun.

[Kaz_LOTB]

You said new talismans and toons slowing down in the coming months would be ideal. Is this actually going to happen?

Yes. As I said, it's something that we'll be working towards as we move forwards. It is a concrete goal of the team to reduce the number of events, but changes won't happen immediately as there are other important features that need to be in place to support the longevity of the game before we get there. It's also important to note that we plan things months in advance and you may not begin to see what we're working on in response to various requests / complaints until a few updates or more after they come to the forefront.

This, of course, can be resolved with a bit of communication on our part, and that is something we want to actively start doing more as well. Leviathan will be posting an update soon covering where we are at with everything to hopefully shed some light on the various initiatives we have in motion to try and address some of the community's top concerns. You can look forward to that sometime this week, hopefully.

-Kaz

[Zugzwang]

but changes won't happen immediately as there are other important features that need to be in place to support the longevity of the game before we get there.
-Kaz

Just thinking — if it’s a monthly subscription fee or some other form of revenue that’s required to support the longevity of the game when in-app purchases (for real world currency) are much fewer and farther between—I’d support that. VERY curious about these coming features. If they support the longevity of the game I’m all for them.

[druid138]

If they support the longevity of the game I’m all for them.

Amen, brother! We want LotB to be here for years to come.

[Mizrael]

-Viper tallie as expected. hope it won’t hurt those who bought them for $$$ much. still a pretty good set

-Arena: way too many VP required! i hope that the “more internal changes” addresses that. @Devs:i hope that you know that you shouldn’t adjust it to the top 3 fanatics who spend the whole day playing, right? Because the rest of the player base reaches around 50 battles a week and even that with disgust...

-One thing that caught my eye the most is the Brave set. 6 talisman set with a 50% chance that nothing will happen?! that seems a bit odd in times where such effects can be achieved with a 2 talli set and the other 6 tal sets add 20 different things...

[scott-5496]

Yeah, this sounds positive - better communication will always work better than not having them.

I have to say though that that old analogy of the nerf I used to use is strongly in play and it's not good. You buy the sports version of your family saloon car as it had a few more bells and whistles and that extra 50 BHP you were looking for on top of the 150BHP you get as standard - the car sits in your drive for a week or two looking awesome - nice rims, nice paint job,leather seats, flappy paddle gear box and that lovely extra 50 BHP you worked those extra hours and spent that extra money (time) to get. Those two weeks are cool - you get work quicker, you can have some fun on the back roads and those heated seats you paid extra for are great in the winter......then the news hits and there is a recall...Dear Customer we are sorry to tell you we messed up the specification of your new car and we need to take it back and remove all the extras we made a mistake in the brochure and that extra money you spent and that extra time you worked to get this version - well sorry but you only get to keep the paint job and as a gesture we will let you keep the rims but the rest has to come out.


Yeah, I know, in the real world this never happens. Sure there may be a recall but you are never really out of pocket with them and what you get back is safer/better whatever. OK, this example is macro and in this game we are alking micro but the analogy is the same - do not 'sell' something you advertise and let folk use for a week or two and then think - eh, we got that wrong lets take it back and remove anything that made this different or useful to our players - forget that they worked for it or had to do x,y,z to get it - that makes no difference we just need to bang on through to the next month and so the same thing again.

I know, I know I got out the wrong side of the bed again...probably correct but honestly revising what you create a mere week or two after selling it is not cool and if it were another industry you would get grief for it - probably even taken to court for fraud or miss selling wares - in the UK it is trading standards. You cant sell a lie here legally (Brexit aside) so please guys try to make sure you are not screwing the pooch every other new thing you put out - especially an OP thing like these viper talisman. It would be better and fit your model to put out somthing that fixes them in a talisman or character.

Personally I think they work as expected - I do not always get a hit with them though I think the defences I go against do or at least a lot closer to 100% - pretty sure I am around the 75% on attack. If I do auto on arena I thin kmine trigger more btu I could be just thinking that of course as no defence boost exists...cough cough.


I am all for variation and the next shiny new thing but please make sure you have thought it out and more importantly that it works as stated at the basic level. Less work for you guys and less moaning from the customers. ABove allelse do not nerf stuff folk have actually paid for - on a simple level that just sucks and is without doubt not a great approach to dealing with your customers. I know If I had paid for anything and this happened I would not be pleased.

[Banished]

Changes in Arena look good but I still don't understand this gap between Duelist 1 and Warlord 1. should be a bit less

[Natasmai]

Yes. As I said, it's something that we'll be working towards as we move forwards. It is a concrete goal of the team to reduce the number of events, but changes won't happen immediately as there are other important features that need to be in place to support the longevity of the game before we get there. It's also important to note that we plan things months in advance and you may not begin to see what we're working on in response to various requests / complaints until a few updates or more after they come to the forefront.

This, of course, can be resolved with a bit of communication on our part, and that is something we want to actively start doing more as well. Leviathan will be posting an update soon covering where we are at with everything to hopefully shed some light on the various initiatives we have in motion to try and address some of the community's top concerns. You can look forward to that sometime this week, hopefully.

-Kaz

2 thoughts here...

First, if you are working months ahead, you should have at least a "goal" of release date that the team is working towards. It would be great to then share that with us. Obviously, with the caveat that things happen and schedules change etc etc, but if you are working on adjusting the release of talis and characters and you "hope" to have that implemented by say August, then at least we would know it is coming and we wouldnt (or at least shouldnt) keep bitching about it until August rolls around at least.

Secondly, I guess I am speaking for myself here, but I dont necessarily want to see less events. I only want to see new product released less often, perhaps with a much longer time frame to acquire them. I like the event frequency, give or take 1-2, 6-8 events a month is fine. But how about re-releasing older stuff that was hard to get during the events. It doesnt always have to be the shiny new thing, plenty of people have missed out on offerings. I would like to collect the Angry Bird toons. I would like an opportunity to collect Charlotte frags without spending a ridiculous amount of iron coins. We can have events, even events that generate cash flow, for older rare items.

Another option could be this: First of the month, announce a new eddie and a new character plus 1 new set of talisman that work well with both the eddie and the toon. Give us various events throughout the entire month to earn these items. Maybe I despise Arena (I really do...) and I dont want to be forced to play arena for some special item. Well thats fine, I can skip that and still get the item through a different event, maybe a dungeon event or a debuff event, etc. You can still sell the items in the store and the whales who gotta have it will buy it so they can play it immediately, but those who are willing to ACTUALLY PLAY your game can also just grind it out over an entire month and get the item also, up to a month later. I think this would be a nice way to do it. We still know there will be 2 new toons every month (not including gauntlet special toons or holiday stuff like krampus and pumpkins) but we also know we have a full month and our choice of how to earn them.


EDIT: Oh, one other thing.... If you guys are working months ahead on releasing these items, it REALLY is unforgivable to release a toon where the Passive doesnt even work, or a talisman that does nothing (like the Reaper Talis). How can you have months to release and not playtest them at least long enough to go "Oh shit, this is a virtual paperweight, it does literally nothing"

[zamasu]

So far I like the arena update, let's see how it works. I think most players wanted a Second division where newer player can compete against each other without getting stuck when facing ALL RELICS MAXED teams. But the new rewards are welcome here.

@Kaz

A little out of topic here but, is there any plans to release characters that were only available for purchase into the game? Such as Sirius the dog and the 3* Eddie?

Also, I know you can pull some strings, My friend submitted a ticket about 20 days ago with an issue with the Labyrinth Talismans but haven't gotten an answer yet, is there any way you can take a look at this? ticket # 37093.

Thanks!

[Kaz_LOTB]

Is there any plans to release characters that were only available for purchase into the game? Such as Sirius the dog and the 3* Eddie?

Yes. The methods and means will be revealed soon.



My friend submitted a ticket about 20 days ago with an issue with the Labyrinth Talismans but haven't gotten an answer yet, is there any way you can take a look at this? ticket # 37093.

I'll forward this to our CS department and ask them to follow up, if possible (not sure what their bandwidth is at the moment).

-Kaz

[scott-5496]

That would be a nice move Kaz and I am sure many of us welcome this. It sounds like Leviathan and that new state of the union thing you mentioned will be good news for many of us hopefully.

Cheers

[Amarthir]

Yes. The methods and means will be revealed soon.



I'll forward this to our CS department and ask them to follow up, if possible (not sure what their bandwidth is at the moment).

-Kaz

Kaz is there any update on the situation where you can't sort your gauntlet characters? You can do it in Arena and PvE stuff, but Gauntlet is stuck on being sorted by class and you can't change it.

[Kaz_LOTB]

Kaz is there any update on the situation where you can't sort your gauntlet characters? You can do it in Arena and PvE stuff, but Gauntlet is stuck on being sorted by class and you can't change it.

Yes. There are some fixes and updates coming to sorting to make it simpler and easier to sort and to have a more consistent default sorting across all screens. That should be ready for the late May/early June update.

-Kaz

[Sunzu]

Yeah, not okay to advertise something for real cash then turn around and change your mind about what you are offering after the purchase has been made. Buyers may have changed their minds had they known to begin with that you were going to alter your agreement. You have plenty of time to test items before they are released. This almost appears to be a sleight of hand card trick with patron's money. This happens one more time this new player is out of here. It won't be the first time I have stopped patronage towards a game that is pulling tricks to take your money.

[Metallicamilo]

I just wanna comment my appreciation for this coming update. I barely do +100 arena battles, but the subdivisions seemed neccesary for the community.

An idea. Something like a limited rank where you can only use maxed out 4star chars, or even 3 star characters, or class limited teams in the arena to add variety to ranks. I dunno. Just an idea.

[Esquatcho]

OK VP points - This has to be dropped imo. The VP points v rank are mismatched on historical scales. Imo, VP levels from King upwards need to drop by 500-1000! To get so many VP points youd be relying on teams getting a heap more wins, but if anything the long battles caused by the proliferation of damage avoiding 5 set talismans is suppressing the total number of battles.

[Blade]

On page 1, Kaz already confirmed that the Gambler's passive is broken in the first turn if you start.
We can hope that the fix can be implemented in the update for next week, as I also really like the Gambler a lot!

[Bakura]

On page 1, Kaz already confirmed that the Gambler's passive is broken in the first turn if you start.
We can hope that the fix can be implemented in the update for next week, as I also really like the Gambler a lot!
Yeah, my bad. I deleted my last post.
1- I realized it didn't work on "Perfect" immunity, just regular.
2- Those pics were taken just a few days after Gambler's release, and they had turn 1 displayed.
I just tested in Arena, it does work.
I was hoping the passive was a counter measure to Assassin Banshee's perf. immunity.

[Blade]

I was hoping the passive was a counter measure to Assassin Banshee's perf. immunity.

This was my first thought aswell! But then I remembered that golden and silver effects normally are explicitly mentioned if a skill also involves/affects them (or something like "all types of immunity").

[Killer-Frost]

Glad Grim Reaper got a magic scaling buff but it still needs a lot more adjustments to be able to compete against the current meta. I look forward to see more changes to him :)

[Bakura]

This was my first thought aswell! But then I remembered that golden and silver effects normally are explicitly mentioned if a skill also involves/affects them (or something like "all types of immunity").

Yeah, I know.... It's just sometimes it is and other times it isn't very descriptive.
The Angel Ed's passive says prevents "immunity effects" and it prevents PERFECT IMMUNITY.
Then Gambler's says "transforms immunity" meaning just regular.
Sometimes they will word it like "all types" or something similar. It's all very important detail. Especially when buying talis in the store and the short description just isn't informative enough.
I've been burnt buying some and then reading more info on it later and it wasn't what I was lead to believe.
I wish they had a chat box pop up like some product websites, where we could ask detailed questions before purchasing....LOL.
Anyway, I've included pic of the passives below. I went up against Angel Ed with 2 Ass. Banshee , Musashi and Gambler. Due to his passive, a viper disabled passive and, well , the pic speaks for itself.54945495

[Yup]

Labyrinth Talismans don't seem to be blocking as much. That's not mentioned anywhere in updates.

Seriously, it's like they aren't even there most of the time. WTF??

[Esquatcho]

@Kaz, when I logged in, I got an achievement for acaloyte level in the arena, then on going into achievements, it seems there are none for the arena anymore. Is this intended? Thanks!

[trooper206]

After a little playing on the arena, I saw how much difference it will make for the few players who will achieve those high VP and on the other hand to the majority of the players who will may be earn ranking,but be with "low" VP, according to the new ranking system. Given the fact that arena has become nothing more than a tedious, time consuming chore, it really saddens me to say that the new division system is not what the player base had in mind, in my humble opinion. I am currently around #20 and have 2966 VP, and I will be getting like, Warlord II rewards? I mean, are we serious?There is a huge and obvious gap created.

Talismans:Please, stop the release of so many of them. We will soon be needing 10000 slots in order to collect every new set.

Other than that, thanks for the team effort to try to make tuning better, and to get rid of bugs, nevertheless it still needs a heap of work to be done.

[Blade]

Relics:Please, stop the release of so many of them. We will soon be needing 10000 slots in order to collect every new set.

You mean Talismans, right? I can agree, the 500 slots really feel little in the meantime.

[Yup]

Given the fact that arena has become nothing more than a tedious, time consuming chore, it really saddens me to say that the new division system is not what the player base had in mind, in my humble opinion. I am currently around #20 and have 2966 VP, and I will be getting like, Warlord II rewards? I mean, are we serious?

Agreed. Pathetic.

Anyone above 3-4k pts has simply been those that wanted to spend and spend and spend and take every waking moment to repeatedly mash buttons. Having a strong team and using your SOW as they naturally accrued put you at around 3 or 4K each week, Warlord I or King level, if you had relatively decent win/loss numbers.

I'd wager that most don't have the time or the inclination to spend that much money to achieve 6K+ each week. the one week I made Eternal and 11K pts, I did NOTHING else but tap buttons as much as I could.. refilled and continued tapping only stopping to sleep. It was an all out, fully dedicated, time sucking experience I never want to do again. So.. now they've made it so you MUST be that involved. It's just sad. They RUIN a part of the app that wasn't great to begin with, but was passable.. so now it's jsut total shit without spending money and not having a life.

Add to that they have underhandedly changed other things.. the arena today is MUCH MUCH different than it was yesterday in terms of battle expectations and there are no new talismans or characters at play.

There are matches I should EASILy win.. but no matter what I do.. I'll lose. Go back in.. same teams.. and I win in 1 or 2 hits. There's NO LOGIC to it other than a hidden AI boost which is insurmountable at times. My Defense % has dropped 15% in a day.... how is that possible without new characters or talismans or "tuning" notes???????

Do we at least get a reach around????

[Muzzleloader]

As I stated before they should have waited until the weekly reset to make the changes to the reward system. Since they made the changes mid week they should have bumped everyones VP accordingly to compensate for the changes.

I am lucky to be coming close to finishing my relics off. With all the new toons/talisman it is becoming insane to play. Wins and loses are becoming random, more players are playing auto just to use their SoW, matches can drag on for long periods. Let's throw in the disco bug for added fun.

[Yup]

I have all the relics.. they make shit difference at times. The AI boost has been CLEARLY increased.

But I am now sitting on tens of thousands of iron coins which don't have much use if I don't want the relatively weak talismans, or duplicate Mariner/Charlotte frags.

[Esquatcho]

I said it earlier - The VPs need to drop by 500-1k in those mid-levels!

[trooper206]

You mean Talismans, right? I can agree, the 500 slots really feel little in the meantime.

Yep,sorry for that,I just edited so it appears correct!!

[trooper206]

Agreed. Pathetic.

Anyone above 3-4k pts has simply been those that wanted to spend and spend and spend and take every waking moment to repeatedly mash buttons. Having a strong team and using your SOW as they naturally accrued put you at around 3 or 4K each week, Warlord I or King level, if you had relatively decent win/loss numbers.

I'd wager that most don't have the time or the inclination to spend that much money to achieve 6K+ each week. the one week I made Eternal and 11K pts, I did NOTHING else but tap buttons as much as I could.. refilled and continued tapping only stopping to sleep. It was an all out, fully dedicated, time sucking experience I never want to do again. So.. now they've made it so you MUST be that involved. It's just sad. They RUIN a part of the app that wasn't great to begin with, but was passable.. so now it's jsut total shit without spending money and not having a life.

Add to that they have underhandedly changed other things.. the arena today is MUCH MUCH different than it was yesterday in terms of battle expectations and there are no new talismans or characters at play.

There are matches I should EASILy win.. but no matter what I do.. I'll lose. Go back in.. same teams.. and I win in 1 or 2 hits. There's NO LOGIC to it other than a hidden AI boost which is insurmountable at times. My Defense % has dropped 15% in a day.... how is that possible without new characters or talismans or "tuning" notes???????

Do we at least get a reach around????

I cannot agree more...I will not,however,participate in this rank “chasing”,unless I find it sometimes worth it to.I mean, what the heck,I will not give a damn if I don’t earn 30 more ironite and a legendary soul ;)

[Natasmai]

so for a little perspective on this arena thing. I usually made sure i was above 1900, that gave me some ironite and a few frags. now i am getting more rewards for no extra effort. I dont mind this change at all, and i suspect that if there are 10,000 people playing arena, 9,950 of them are pretty happy about the changes. I mean, the entire system is still complete shit, a lot of what you guys are suggesting makes sense and might actually promote more people to actively chase higher tiers, but this IS an improvement.

[Yup]

Point being Natasmai, is that the upper tier players got screwed. So those that were already dedicating more effort ant time, get less for the same effort. Sure it's great that the casual players lower in the ranks get more. That's not something I would change. It was a decent move. But to essentially ruin things because a handful of upper tier players have no lives and want to spend money repeatedly on ironite for refills is punishing the upper tier players. There's a world of difference between being above 1900 and being above 50 or even 250.

[Blade]

...and they removed rare G/A souls as rewards for Arena! One of the very few "sources"
We all can hope that there will some more changes come. Right now it is obviously wrong. ATM I am rank 12 but points are only enough for top 500 tier...lol

[Muzzleloader]

I thought I read somewhere that we would start at 2500 points at reset. If that is true is true it would help out the top players. Thet should not have implimented the arena ranking change until the weekly reset. I'm close enough to complete the relics that earning IC isnt that important to my game.

[Natasmai]

Point being Natasmai, is that the upper tier players got screwed. So those that were already dedicating more effort ant time, get less for the same effort. Sure it's great that the casual players lower in the ranks get more. That's not something I would change. It was a decent move. But to essentially ruin things because a handful of upper tier players have no lives and want to spend money repeatedly on ironite for refills is punishing the upper tier players. There's a world of difference between being above 1900 and being above 50 or even 250.

So it turns out they just screwed everyone. I wasat exactly 2100VP last week with a rank of 1330. This awarded me more rewards than i have had before. HOWEVER, the reset put me down to somewhere around 1400VP and if I do my typical 1 game per day, i wont get shit for rewards this week.

So the whole thing sucks.