Danger: Odin in The Red

[Puntwothree]

I’m seeing a problem, and I’m part of it. Seeing an Odin in the red feels bad. Putting an Odin in the red feels bad.. if you can’t finish him. Specifically Odin X, who is the gift that keeps on coming.

Nobody wants to battle that Odin. He doesn’t give good individual rewards; he doesn’t give good clan rewards. Without knowing exactly how much health he has, you don’t know how much power to bring to that fight. And as an officer, who should be leading by example, should I be the one to take him out? Or should I save my blood, because maybe I can help the clan more that way? But then, doesn’t everyone have that thought?

I like the Odin challenge most of the time and think he fosters camaraderie. But not when he’s in the red.

The good news is, I think this can be fixed. I think that we can have an Odin battle that is always good for the players and our community of players, and it might not be too hard to do.

Option # 1: Clear Bonus

Crafty clans might be able to take advantage of a clan clear bonus, i.e. set Odin low and send several players in at once. But what if there was an individual bonus, which was always the same, and only triggered on Odins that were below starting life total when attacked? It would not have to be much, maybe 10 ironite or something.. but would be a nice gesture to the person willing to do the dirty work and kill that Odin in the red. (Or even that Odin at 90%, because only a fresh Odin delivers max clan rewards.)

Option # 2: Refresh Button

We have it for Arena battles. Why not for Odin? Hit the button, and Odin comes back fresh (X only, please). Anyone who is in the battle gets to finish. Then there is a cool down for the refresh. Odin would never stay in the red for hours while people play chicken.

Option # 3: Odin X Works Differently

This might actually be the easiest (and best) option. Whenever anyone exits the Odin X fight, he pops up fresh automatically. You could still kill him and get the full compliment of individual and clan rewards, but you wouldn’t have to send guilty apologies when Odin gets you right at the end of a hard battle. More importantly, there would be no cause for conflict within a clan for leaving Odins incomplete; no discussion required about who should be responsible for that Odin. We could always use our blood when it is available and wouldn’t have to wait or request times to battle (for the sake of the clan).

As always.. if you made it this far, thank you for listening.

[scimitar]

First of all, thanks for the Care Pack.
Now on the topic: twice I was caught on such a fishing rod. For the first time it was like this: a little red on the scale, I waited, after 10 minutes the same thing. Okay, I went in with a team capable of a quick throw. Odin - 100%. Needless to say, I had to spend another team to get to the end.
For the second time, the same initial situation: but now you won’t deceive me. I take a strong team. Odin - 0.99%. One hit and I finished. As a result, instead of 3k, the clan gets 500 points

[thealchemist]

I was thinking we needed a thread about how to improve raid battles, some good constructive criticism rather than just talk about the bugs, connection issues etc. Which do need fixing but thats already been discussed.

I am enjoying the challenge but there is clearly room for improvement.

I think either of option one or three could work. If an individual still gets a decent reward for clearing Odin regardless of what health he was when they started it makes it worth it. If it resets back to 100% after every battle that could solve the issue too.

That would only leave the issue when you go in when it says its 100 percent health but between the brief time you select the team and go into the battle, someone else was in there and has had a loss and you had no way of knowing. Its now down to say below 50% and you get close to the bare minimum rewards. There is the clan chat but I'm not convinced it works all the time as it should (I mean no other part of the game does) and even if it does, how does one communicate via clan chat when they are in the battle? Discord is popular with clans, I use the browser version myself but what if they are using the app and on the same device as LotB? Im assuming they can't communicate when that is the case either. So maybe we need a way to know someone else is battling Odin? Or a way to communicate while in raid? Although if the problem regarding individual rewards for clearing Odin are improved like in the first suggestion maybe this issue wouldnt even be an issue.

Thanks for starting this thread OP.

[scimitar]

[QUOTE=thealchemist;123474]

I am enjoying the challenge but there is clearly room for improvement.



Reset Odin X to 100% after each battle. Perhaps this is what we need

[Puntwothree]

[QUOTE=thealchemist;123474]

I am enjoying the challenge but there is clearly room for improvement.



Reset Odin X to 100% after each battle. Perhaps this is what we need

Good summary of my post :-p. I can get a little long-winded..

[MuzakMaker]

I actually don't think it should be changed at all, let one of the lower members in a clan finish him off or just take a team whose power is based on Missing HP . Raids should take a bit of planning, coordination, and skill.


But hey, this is all theoretical on my part since I can't play this part of the game 50% of the time.

[Puntwothree]

I actually don't think it should be changed at all, let one of the lower members in a clan finish him off or just take a team whose power is based on Missing HP . Raids should take a bit of planning, coordination, and skill.


But hey, this is all theoretical on my part since I can't play this part of the game 50% of the time.

Well, I wouldn’t have posted without expecting some dissent.

Your point about coordination and skill is read, loud and clear. #2 would perhaps address part of this; allow you to attack a low Odin IF you wanted to.

Not trying to start an argument, but: there can never really be perfect coordination on Odin. Not thirty minutes ago I went in, battled him with an experimental team, and left some life up. Only when I checked out of the fight did I notice that someone had posted they were going in. See? I think/hope we overlapped, because Odin was fresh when I checked back. Otherwise I stepped on his toes and our clan lost 1,000 points. There was no chance for communication there, once I was in, unless we had both been using two devices with a non-game chat open on one and the game on the other, and we had both been assiduously checking the chat.

As to the “lower members” point... that has validity, too... but personally I would think it an abuse of power to ask that favor of a clan mate I presume to be “lower.”

Thanks for replying. Keep em’ comin’!

[Puntwothree]

Oo how about this:

Option #4: Clan leader can manually set Odin X to lose health/behave as is or refresh automatically after battles.

If there is Odin coordination, it’s going to start at the top. Clans could internally discuss/decide what’s best for them.

Ultimately for me, this is a post about clan health. Is Odin going to be a disruptive force or a constructive one? I don’t think “red” Odins are good for anyone, no matter how many good natured cooperators volunteer for the duty.

[MuzakMaker]

Well, I wouldn’t have posted without expecting some dissent.

Your point about coordination and skill is read, loud and clear. #2 would perhaps address part of this; allow you to attack a low Odin IF you wanted to.

Not trying to start an argument, but: there can never really be perfect coordination on Odin. Not thirty minutes ago I went in, battled him with an experimental team, and left some life up. Only when I checked out of the fight did I notice that someone had posted they were going in. See? I think/hope we overlapped, because Odin was fresh when I checked back. Otherwise I stepped on his toes and our clan lost 1,000 points. There was no chance for communication there, once I was in, unless we had both been using two devices with a non-game chat open on one and the game on the other, and we had both been assiduously checking the chat.

As to the “lower members” point... that has validity, too... but personally I would think it an abuse of power to ask that favor of a clan mate I presume to be “lower.”

Thanks for replying. Keep em’ comin’!

Yeah, the "lower member" was kind of poor wording on my part.

If you are a clan with all 30 members each with more than enough teams that can solo Odin X it's going to feel like a moot point until clans get fleshed out. But those clans are edge cases and we shouldn't be tailoring the game to them.

In fact looking at the last time the devs released any hard numbers that could be used to analyze the player base's "power level" most of the players can't even finish LOL XV. Most of the people on here fall in to the group that can finish so if the devs only listen to us, that can unbalance the raids to a point where it will become hopeless to the newer players or those with not as strong rosters.

You think it's disheartening to not be able to finish off Odin X in one goal? How do you think a clan would feel if no matter how much damage they do, if a single member can't kill him in one go, none of the progress really matters.

[MuzakMaker]

Oo how about this:

Option #4: Clan leader can manually set Odin X to lose health/behave as is or refresh automatically after battles.

If there is Odin coordination, it’s going to start at the top. Clans could internally discuss/decide what’s best for them.

Ultimately for me, this is a post about clan health. Is Odin going to be a disruptive force or a constructive one? I don’t think “red” Odins are good for anyone, no matter how many good natured cooperators volunteer for the duty.

Again, this is ok for those of us in "higher power" clans but again the devs can't just look at us as representative groups for the whole player base. I imagine once we get the other bosses, clans will naturally sort of self divide into those players who are "clean up members" and those who are going to be soloing.

And honestly, with all of the bugs that exist in our current system, I can only imagine what will happen if we introduce an option to toggle how raids operate. Now we have two sets of scenarios that can be bugged.

[MuzakMaker]

And if I was going to change anything about the current raid set up, I would expand the SoB limit. Sucks to be locked out for half the week and still have just as much resource as someone who waited 15 hours.

With a currenr refresh rate that low, if you have players waiting for it to fill up to max (say 5 or 10 SoB) they are going to be actively hurting their clan anyways. It'd would be nice to not have all that locked out time wasted.

[Maiden]

From the very beginning, there is little room to really "multiplay" Odin in the way that is currently designed. There is such an uncertainty every time you go in, sometimes as ppl already said, you enter waiting for an almost dead Odin and he is at his full health, and vice-versa. Yes, players must communicate better to reduce these situations but let be honest the clan chat doesn´t allow a fluid communication and depending on third apps like discord brings as many solutions as new problems...

Soooooooo maybe the game itself could have a better info interface inside the Raid section, it could say "Odin is currently under attack" or something... but if the "bar life lag" problem is not going to be fixed, for me the best idea is just reset Odin X after every battle and grant rewards according dmg.

[Puntwothree]

@Muzakmaker bugs proper need to take precedence over something like this, and I think Support agrees based on the number of times they have explained this to me when I complain about the Pharaoh Dog Cosmic not working. So, we should get you in and playing before we worry about automatic refreshes.

This all may be a consideration after X, Y, and Z are addressed, and after we circle back through the alphabet and get to about M.

Expanding the SoB also sounds like a good idea to me. Especially when the game is giving them away in monthly bundles and they’re dropping from clan challenges. Even for those of us fortune enough to have a working Odin, it could be frustrating to wait hours for that timer to tick down (or think you have hours before you need to play) only to have “free” SoB cap you and miss out on refresh time.

Finally, you’re right: Support should not cater to only the strongest players. I still maintain that any of these changes would cater to everybody.

Sorry, mate. I had to edit this post ^^ because the first time I missed one of your replies in the flurry.

@Maiden yours is also a good idea, and I think I’ve seen versions of it thrown around our discord chat. Knowing when Odin is being attacked would certainly be a plus. I am advocating for a little more, because I don’t think this solves the “assigning cleanup duty” issue... but I would welcome it all the same.

P.S. Your seat is still warm.

[Puntwothree]

A small, personal clear bonus and an “Odin is being attacked” notification together could satisfy me almost as well as Option #3, automatic reset.

[Saints_sin]

a few opptions
1 return odins hp to what it was before the patch update
2. add how much hp he has on the screen at the bottom
3. will there be an expanison for an odin XI-XV where we battle odin awakened + allys for even greater rewards (personally think this would be great)

[Muzzleloader]

The other option is just kill Odin outright and you wouldnt need to worry about low health Odins.

[Saints_sin]

The other option is just kill Odin outright and you wouldnt need to worry about low health Odins.

true but before the patch he had an extra 4 million i think health which made even lower health odins worth the effort they could also sort the scaling system for damage = points

[MuzakMaker]

The other option is just kill Odin outright and you wouldnt need to worry about low health Odins.

Yeah, screw those who don't have clans filled with active members with strong members. /S

I feel like this is such a bad attitude that ignores a majority of the player base. Since a lot of us long term players or whales are in a select few clans if we shouldn't be adding yet another barrier between us and the newer or less devoted players.

If you are that attached to the idea that you should always be attacking a full health Odin (which really defeats the point of a CLAN activity) why not look at the low health Odin as an effct for not meeting your goal and now even you have something to work towards.

[Saints_sin]

just wait until clan wars become a thing then the barriers will really hit

[Puntwothree]

The other option is just kill Odin outright and you wouldnt need to worry about low health Odins.

This only highlights the problem.

No one should be discouraged from playing the game. The only way to get the full Odin suite of rewards (individual & clan) is to kill a fresh Odin dead. I don’t want anyone in my clan to start thinking they shouldn’t attack a fresh Odin any more than I want them to think they should be obligated to attack an Odin in the red. I want them to feel like they are helping any time they choose to participate. (And I want them to earn the best individual rewards they are able to earn and participate whenever they can.)

Refreshing Odin addresses this concern.

[MuzakMaker]

This only highlights the problem.

No one should be discouraged from playing the game. The only way to get the full Odin suite of rewards (individual & clan) is to kill a fresh Odin dead. I don’t want anyone in my clan to start thinking they shouldn’t attack a fresh Odin any more than I want them to think they should be obligated to attack an Odin in the red. I want them to feel like they are helping any time they choose to participate. (And I want them to earn the best individual rewards they are able to earn and participate whenever they can.)

Refreshing Odin addresses this concern.

Refreshing Odin only disguises this concern. I'm sorry but this just seems to be a fundemental difference in how we believe Clans should work.

I agree that doing more work should net more rewards but having Odin's health refresh after every battle removes strategy and team work from the equation. What's the point of making this a team effort if your contributions only add to an arbitrary point total.

Leaving an Odin in the red allows you to use different teams, requires different strategies and gives some of the "lower power" members of a clan a way to contribute plus doesn't leave the clans full of players like this with a sense of hopelessness. Why on earth would they want to battle an Odin that they can't kill?

Edit for additional thought: Removing the need to kill Odin, also removes the reward of killing Odin. If you can't kill Odin in one go there should be some sort of punishment. Just refreshing Odin removes that punishment. There's a reason Odins 1-9 aren't permanently dead once you move to the next level. If you want to get more rewards and raid points for your SoB and Odin X is in the red, you can get more rewards taking down a fresh nine instead of finishing off the X.

[Puntwothree]

@muzakmaker: I’m not quoting your recent reply simply in an effort to save space. Nothing personal.

Player A can kill Odin at full health.

Player B cannot.

Scenario: Odin is at full health.

Question: Does player B have an incentive to play Odin?

If Player B does, Player A might be perturbed with Player B, because (s)he may see this as a loss of rewards for the clan. If Player B does not, it will show up in Player B’s contribution that (s)he has not played, and Player A might be mad anyhow.

Now we have a Catch-22 where Player A is always mad at Player B, when Player B was just trying to play the game.

So what if Player B waits? Well, Player A enters the fight, kills Odin, and Odin comes back fresh. Now what should Player B do? Wait for Player A to take another turn? Or for C to step in? How long should player B stare at his/her phone or computer before a low Odin appears, and (s)he can step in?

Automatic refresh addresses this. It doesn’t give Player B the satisfaction of killing Odin, but is that satisfaction worth the conflict that was just created or the minimal available rewards (with Odin in the red)? And who says Player B finds killing Odin satisfying? This seems to be where we disagree.

Truthfully (IMO) Odin X shouldn’t die at all, but you have to put a cap on him somewhere or the battle would last forever.

[waymo]

what if it's the end of the week & you have used your best teams? odin still needs to be killed. So far I'v only found 2 teams that will kill him outright so i just keep plugging. Hopefuly helping someone else with poorer teams to finish him off

[Puntwothree]

Aside/Additional: I have a few schemas up my sleeve that do well against Odin and/or Kill him, but they don’t do it quick. Communicating to thirty people in different time zones that I want Odin to myself for thirty minutes doesn’t seem like the most efficient way to play this.

[Puntwothree]

what if it's the end of the week & you have used your best teams? odin still needs to be killed. So far I'v only found 2 teams that will kill him outright so i just keep plugging. Hopefuly helping someone else with poorer teams to finish him off

There isn’t really a reward for killing him, and that is part of the problem (solution #1). There is no reason we should need to “finish him off” other than for the private satisfaction of seeing him fall to his knees.

Conversely, if you were in my clan I would want you to keep plugging... in principle. But in practice, I might prefer you didn’t (if Odin was full) because I’d want a crack at him. The game shouldn’t operate this way.

[Maiden]

Maybe we are all seeing the same elephant in the room, if we set aside the satisfaction (???) of killing Odin, I mean the fact of giving him the final blow/kiss/goodbye/adios/sayonara (ok you got it xd) what´s the difference in rewards? Isn´t a big one right? Rewards according to dmg are kinda fair, it would be the same if you do the first 15% or the last 15% on Odin. In that scenario, the reset should work and everybody should feels that was equally done. On the other hand, we might lose motivation fighting Odin in that way.

In that case, we could improve the motivation of actually killing Odin if we had rewards according on how many times Odin X has died, aside from the total weekly puntuation. IE. 100.000 points and 500 Odin deads (I like as currency, hey give me 10 Odindeads for that! xD)

[MuzakMaker]

There isn’t really a reward for killing him, and that is part of the problem (solution #1). There is no reason we should need to “finish him off” other than for the private satisfaction of seeing him fall to his knees.

Conversely, if you were in my clan I would want you to keep plugging... in principle. But in practice, I might prefer you didn’t (if Odin was full) because I’d want a crack at him. The game shouldn’t operate this way.

There is a reward for killing him, he's back at full health which means full rewards are back.
I think we are just going to disagree on this and while I think you are absolutely wrong it's just two different opinions and both are valid.

Having Odin need to be killed before being back at full health is also a great way to help balance out the total clan points.

It's very easy as a player to say "I think it's best that all of our clan members should be able to get the max rewards at all times". As a player that sounds amazing.

The game as whole needs to be metered to lessen power creep and putting this restriction helps keep the gap between clans like ours from easily getting SSS every week while the rest of clans struggle to make even as high as B or A.

Trust me I want all those shiny trinkets that come with a clan that is acing the raids, but I don't want the game to be come so off balanced that the bulk of the players are left out in the cold. It can be hard for all us to remember (and I'm definitely including myself in this) that those of us on the forums and discord and even some facebook groups are the minority. If the devs only listen to us and cater to our levels, we run the risk of alienating all those casual players and all of the $5-20 purchases they bring.

[Natasmai]

Maybe we are all seeing the same elephant in the room, if we set aside the satisfaction (???) of killing Odin, I mean the fact of giving him the final blow/kiss/goodbye/adios/sayonara (ok you got it xd) what´s the difference in rewards? Isn´t a big one right? Rewards according to dmg are kinda fair, it would be the same if you do the first 15% or the last 15% on Odin. In that scenario, the reset should work and everybody should feels that was equally done. On the other hand, we might lose motivation fighting Odin in that way.

In that case, we could improve the motivation of actually killing Odin if we had rewards according on how many times Odin X has died, aside from the total weekly puntuation. IE. 100.000 points and 500 Odin deads (I like as currency, hey give me 10 Odindeads for that! xD)

there is a significant difference in rewards based on how the fights fall. Obviously a max kill from 100% awards 3000 points, but it also rewards significant prizes that really do add up and are worth the effort. On the other hand, if you go in and maybe do a 50% fight and die, you get significantly less rewards and the raid points may only be around 950ish. Now you can have 2 people each finish him off with 50% fights, but you are only getting 1900 points instead of 6000 points. Setting aside the point difference, the combined raid rewards of frags, souls, and other resources from the 2 50% fights is definitely a large step down from even a single 100% kill.

All that said, what you suggest makes sense, rewards should scale per damage done, and I think they actually already do. That isnt an issue at all.

The issue is when you have someone who can definitely go in and max kill him, but when he is ready to raid Odin is at 50%, hell even if he is at 95%, the max that person can get is 2000 raid points and a significant decrease in other rewards. So what do they do? Do they waste their team to clean Odin off for the greater good of the clan? or does they wait for someone else to do it? Do they go into clan chat or discord and "demand" that someone else clear it out so he can get full rewards? What if someone goes in with a mediocre team to try and finish it and THEY also lose? Now a 3rd person still needs to clean up. All the while, the person with the full kill team is irritated they have to wait, the other clan members are irritated that they have to argue over who will lose out on rewards and waste their blood to kill him, animosity within the clan grows and the whole thing is defeating the purpose of the clan idea.

I get what this thread is about... I also personally feel that it comes down to clan structure. If you have clansmen who cant clear him fully at least a few times a week and they are also not willing to be the on call clean up crew, then cut them loose and find a better clansman. That is easy enough for me to say, we have 30 of the absolute best people in this game and we are all 100% focused on dominating the challenge. We each take turns sacrificing for clean up when needed and we all work very well together. But it isnt that easy to have every clan out there be filled with premium players.

So do the lower/mid-level players just need to understand that their goals are too big and they need to be more realistic? Do they need to just accept that the raid just may not be for them at all?

I would say that the Devs did not intend for Odin to be solo killed. I bet that the way it works for most people, with a few people taking turns killing him until he is finally dead... that is the way it is supposed to be played. They needed a reward scale that goes all the way up to a full kill, sure, but they didnt expect it to be so prevalent. The whole idea of a "RAID" is multiple people focusing on a single target or goal to succeed. Is the focus on earning as many raid points as possible? Or was it maybe the intent that multiple people focus on killing Odin so he eventually dies as a group effort? Only the Devs know, and they dont seem to ever share information with us.

TLDR: You guys say there is a problem, but who is to say that everything isnt working as intended and it is SUPPOSED to take multiple people to get a kill?

[Puntwothree]

@natasmia: again, saving space here... more than anything else.

I think I agree with the underlying message of your post, as I am hearing it, which is that challenges should not be too easy to conquer, and that killing Odin is part of the challenge.

Over time I recognize that I’m beginning to feel a bit entitled. A new insane dungeon comes out, and some of us old-timers expect that we should be able to beat it in less than a minute. Frankly, that’s ridiculous.

However, you touched on two things that are central to my message.

One is the potential for animosity within a clan because of the ability to clear/not clear Odin. I see it. I think you see it. It's unacceptable. And while you may think the answer is for clan members to specialize or to prune the clan, I think there is value in clan members beyond strictly their in-game ability and there is an injustice in asking players who are not as well-developed to go out of their way to accept lower rewards. In addition, the Odin process is anonymous. Like you said, if you don’t have 30 “top end” players, how do you even know who to prune? I absolutely will not kick someone for engaging with the content. The game shouldn’t be set up so I’m tempted to.

Second, we do have some insight into what the Devs think is doable... it’s in the reward tiers. If they did not think it was possible for people to solo Odin, why did they make that a requirement to get 3,000 raid points? And why did they make it impossible to get to the highest tiers unless at least some of them members of a clan were achieving this mark at least some of the time? Sometimes I think we, as players, are underestimated. In the Odin challenge, I don't think that's the case.

Personally I would accept lower overall rewards (individual and clan) in exchange for a system that didn’t “punish” developing players for engaging in the content. I would accept lower weekly rewards for myself to achieve this as well. I like Odin, and I want him to be a constructive force. My shtick is about achieving this end, not about getting better stuff for me.

[Puntwothree]

If the clear bonus were 1,000 raid points and/or something small and personal, there would be incentive to go in an kill Odin no matter his health... and value in doing so. This would make sense, as bringing Odin from 99% health to nothing is still only 2,000 points. That last point of damage should be worth 1,000 points.

The only problem with this is that I think currently someone could set Odin at 1% health (or less) and 29 people could log in simultaneously and kill Odin for 29,000 clan points. The raid system would have to change so this couldn't happen, and the clear bonus would only be rewarded once.

I thought Maiden's "Odin is being attacked" message was a good idea; taking it a step further, if Odin COULDN'T be attacked when he was under attack already, we could have our cake and eat it to. The clear bonus, personal and clan. Strategy in who should be attacking Odin when. No more animosity between players. And no need to coordinate to a near-impossible degree in order to avoid frustrating partial-clear mishaps. This is the Holy Grail. I suggested the automatic refresh partly because it sounds simpler to implement.

EDIT: I guess what I am suggesting here is the same reward system, but first 2,000 clan points are based on damage dealt and last 1,000 are a clear bonus. In this scenario, it would be possible to get 3,000 points for an Odin that was not at full health when you attacked him (so long his starting health was high enough). But this would not effect the maximum number of points (3,000) a player could earn for his clan on a single blood. Both early attacks and finishing blows from all contributing members would become relevant.

[hugoW]

The only thing that you guys will be getting from this discussion is probably a change in the way that the Sands Of Blood work.
Nobody wants to use 1 SOB in a low odin and everybody wants to spend 1 SOB on a full odin... so they would/will probably change the needs of the SOB to fight an odin at different types of health.
And that is never good for your player wallet.

Example:

0,01~9,99% health Odin - 1 SOB
10,00~19,99% health Odin - 2 SOB
20,00~29,99% health Odin - 3 SOB
30,00~39,99% health Odin - 4 SOB
40,00~49,99% health Odin - 5 SOB
50,00~59,99% health Odin - 6 SOB
60,00~69,99% health Odin - 7 SOB
70,00~79,99% health Odin - 8 SOB
80,00~99,99% health Odin - 9 SOB
~~~100%~~~ health Odin - 10 SOB


Anyway i would not be mad with this dynamic way of SOB consume change of use, actually it makes sense "sands of blood", if odin doesn't has his full "health" he lost some blood, soo you don't need that much of SOB to enter the dungeon.

BUT ONLY IF ITS FAIR FOR THE PLAYER, and by this the normal regeneration of SOB need to be changed aswell:

1- Same time cooldown time but instead of 3 SOB, now would be 30 SOB, and the in-between times added regenerations 1-10, each 10% of the normal cooldown for 1 current would be added 1 SOB.
2- Purchased 1 SOB (60 ironite) would be changed to 10 SOB without ironite price change, and other currently ways of obtain SOB would not be changed their price and changed the ammount proportion by 10.


This would optimize even more the Clan's need's for cooperation and added another level of coordination to be synchronized between SOB cooldowns and players to take alternated Runs:

Example coordination between 3 Clan Players in Odin X:
1- has 30 SOB
2- has 4 SOB
3- has 7 SOB

Odin has 69% HP, how to maximize their play?

Player 3 plays first, and depending on how well he goes, has Player 2 as backup to finish his odin if he falls below 40%.
Player 2 Finishes Odin X and tells the big guy player 1 to make his 3 Solo Runs.
If he dies in the middle of the way some other player may help to finish the runs.

In the end everything will be about coordination and would be able to achieve even better results in the Rank Points than now.

[Puntwothree]

@Hugo I think this is a very interesting idea and/but a completely different way to attack the problem. Totally for the innovation... but it does seem like kind of a major revamp of the everything. I am hoping (because I am techno-dumb, and absolutely not a programmer) some of my suggestions would be tiny code tweaks by comparison.

So for it/not for it?

Definitely interesting. Thanks for posting!

[Puntwothree]

Another thought on the "clans decide" idea:

In another mobile game I played (once upon a time, and I don't remember what it was called) the clan leader had to initiate an event (i.e. Raids) before everyone else could participate. If the Devs could be "in" on the idea of, "letting Odin function as is or allowing for an automatic reset on his health on Odin X," it could be set up such that the clan leader makes this decision, once, at the beginning of each "Odin week" and sets the decision for the week. After the decision was made, all could participate.

This seems like it would be less bug-prone than a system where someone could waffle on that decision at will.

Again, I know nothing about programming.

[hugoW]

Nothing really changes, it just stops being unfair to clean red odin because its proportional to the sands you can use... except the ammount of times that the dungeon can be played leading to more connection problems predictively

[MuzakMaker]

I think a huge thing we're all forgetting is that until raids are actually in a playable state all the time for all the players, it wouldn't be smart to get any re-balancing or restructuring how raids.

The devs and game designers will have a much better picture of how raids are being played for a larger swath of the player base which well help keep it properly balanced.

I highly doubt it was intended to have clans with a bunch of players constantly clearing Odin by themselves. Expecting to get the best of the best rewards every time is most likely not a good thing from a game balance stand point.

[Yup]

Too much thinkin......

When Odin dies.. clan should get the 3K pts... doesn't matter if he started with 100% HP, 90% HP or 5% HP.. when he dies the clan gets 3k pts and every member of the clan should get the other rewards associate with a full-health kill.. skill shards, frags, tribute, etc.... the individual player that lands the actual killing blow.. should get MORE rewards.

think of it this way....

Odin kill is like a tier 5-6 sacrifice... decent rewards and all clan members get them each time Odin dies, clan gets 3k raid pts.
The killing blow is like a vortex fill.. better rewards and ONLY the player that dealt the killing blow gets those.

Other rewards are as they currently are.. based on dmg dealt.. so, if a player can full-kill Odin, he earns 6k raid pts for the clan plus other clan rewards AND the killing blow rewards for himself.

This eliminates and hesitancy to clean things up when Odin is in the red and actually causes a race to the Odin's death within the clan.... But also ensures the 3K pts for death is always awarded. Within the clan, anyone capable of a full-kill would need to work with the clan to ensure they are the only person fighting, otherwise its' a free for all...with little or no downside. Biggest drawback is communication.. if you want a full-kill you have to have clan members that will back off and let you start and end a battle. -- and the HP bar BEFORE entering the battle needs to ACTUALLY reflect the correct amount of HP Odin has -- so annoying to see it 100% green, start the battle and see he's got 30% HP left.....


------------------------------

All this posted....

Devs most likely (hopefully) mapped all the rewards out. And I imagine they are how they want them to be with only quantities to possibly tweak. I suspect any change in HOW rewards are awarded is going to fall on deaf ears. They aren't exactly known for listening to player ideas.

[Mateja]

@Puntwothree, to not quote what you wrote until now.

While I agree with most of what you said, one big hole in your thinking is the assumption that newer/weaker players are entitled to highest possible rewards. Now I drew this out of your responses throughout the thread and if I got the wrong idea correct me and move on.

If you cannot beat something, what is your first thought?
1) Alright, I'll come back to it later with stronger toons
Or
2) This is too hard, I'll ask developers to make it easier.

Point stands that beating not-100% Odin gives worse rewards and something should be done, Hugos idea is the best one so far in my opinion. Setting up damage points scaling up to 2000 and an additional 1000 for a kill is also a pretty good idea. I don't know much about programming either so can't tell if it requires much work, but are we only suggesting easy fixes or actual good solutions for a better game? Let the idea out and maybe after all the bug fixing it gets implemented.

Back to my original topic. Changes to Odin have to actually better the performance, not make him more accessible for new players. If you can't beat Odin X, try lower levels. If you can't beat those maybe raids aren't for you. Not everyone has a clan of 30 high tier players who work all week to get as high as possible. Raids so far seem kind of similar to gauntlet. Not everyone is meant to reach S+ tiers. For gauntlet you need a good collection of characters and for raids you need a good clan.

To sum it up, changes should be made but they should not be aimed at making raids easier (as that's what some of proposed things would undoubtedly do).

For now someone will have to waste a SoB, which is very expensive too, to clear a non-100% Odin. I hope devs will find a proper way to change this up while keeping a sense of achievement for clearing Odin and reaching high weekly reward tiers.

[Puntwothree]

@yup: I like a lot of the concepts, here. Like, a lot. What you’re asking for may be a tad too generous, but “something triggers for everyone when Odin dies” (rewards, clan points, et. cetera) seems like an idea around which a compromise could be struck. And if Odin functioned this way, one could really “be the hero,” by finishing Odin off, which is an appealing idea.

With the kill-shot individual bonus (#1) so there is always some incentive to battle “Odin in the Red,” I think a lot of people could be happy with this. Without it, rewards seem to get more generous but the same play/not play dynamic may still exist.

[Puntwothree]

If something triggered for everyone when Odin died, I think more casual players might start to take more notice as to when Odin was being attacked and get more excited about playing him.

[Yup]

Yeah that's why I say tier 5-6 sacrifice.. the death rewards should guarantee a given amount of raid pts... then other rewards I'll leave for devs to figure out... they shouldn't be too generous.. perhaps like some tribute and some talisman frags... but it should be a clan-wide reward every time Odin dies.

Biggest drawback.. someone going for a full-kill and another unwitting clan member joining.... ruining the full kill bonus rewards.. but... the killing blow rewards would still be possible if they aren't sniped by the unwitting clan member. To be frank, I can see some clan members being ejected for taking advantage of killing blows.... So a lot of in-fighting could occur.

If nothing else.. the clan-wide rewards and guaranteed 3K raid pts upon Odin's death should be a thing...

[Puntwothree]

@Hugo: actually... methinks if our resources were just multiplied by 10 (30 blood instead of 3, et cetera) and refresh time divided by 10, then they could charge 1 blood * (percentage of Odin’s health / ten, rounded up) to fight Odin. Then, change Odin so he gives 2,000 clan points max with a 1-time 1,000 clear bonus. This could solve everything...

I think this is almost exactly what you said, but the numbers scared me off.

EDIT: The more I think about your suggestion, @Hugo, the more I like it. One of the Forums I was a part of once had a "solved" button. Honestly, if I had that option here I might exercise it.

[Saints_sin]

Too much thinkin......

When Odin dies.. clan should get the 3K pts... doesn't matter if he started with 100% HP, 90% HP or 5% HP.. when he dies the clan gets 3k pts and every member of the clan should get the other rewards associate with a full-health kill.. skill shards, frags, tribute, etc.... the individual player that lands the actual killing blow.. should get MORE rewards.

think of it this way....

Odin kill is like a tier 5-6 sacrifice... decent rewards and all clan members get them each time Odin dies, clan gets 3k raid pts.
The killing blow is like a vortex fill.. better rewards and ONLY the player that dealt the killing blow gets those.

Other rewards are as they currently are.. based on dmg dealt.. so, if a player can full-kill Odin, he earns 6k raid pts for the clan plus other clan rewards AND the killing blow rewards for himself.

This eliminates and hesitancy to clean things up when Odin is in the red and actually causes a race to the Odin's death within the clan.... But also ensures the 3K pts for death is always awarded. Within the clan, anyone capable of a full-kill would need to work with the clan to ensure they are the only person fighting, otherwise its' a free for all...with little or no downside. Biggest drawback is communication.. if you want a full-kill you have to have clan members that will back off and let you start and end a battle. -- and the HP bar BEFORE entering the battle needs to ACTUALLY reflect the correct amount of HP Odin has -- so annoying to see it 100% green, start the battle and see he's got 30% HP left.....


------------------------------

All this posted....

Devs most likely (hopefully) mapped all the rewards out. And I imagine they are how they want them to be with only quantities to possibly tweak. I suspect any change in HOW rewards are awarded is going to fall on deaf ears. They aren't exactly known for listening to player ideas.

honestly this is the best suggestion i have seen for odin although less skillshards would be nice also the rewards should only be for people who damaged him

[Puntwothree]

Well, @yup, if there was a individual clear bonus.. it could in theory be doled out more than once (no in-fighting, no sniping) so long as it was relatively small and clan rewards were not doled out this way (this could be taken advantage of too much by savvy clans). Or, the "Odin is being attacked!" option could come into play, and simultaneous clears made impossible.

[Puntwothree]

@mateja: I think you did get me wrong, at least a little bit. So I'll try to summarize the crux of what I believe to be the problem.

The way the Odin raid is set up right now, a player can actively hurt his/her clan by playing at certain times, causing frustration and potentially in-fighting. What's worse, it's hard to truly coordinate the Odin fight with the tools we currently have at our disposal.

I don't necessarily think that all players should get the same, or more, or better rewards regardless of participation. But I do believe that anyone who does participate should be able to feel like he/she is doing his/her part, and each fight should be useful in the clan's progression toward its goals.

That's why I really like @hugo's idea of scaling blood needed to enter a fight. A player able to clear Odin could, under that system, get the same individual rewards for the same investment, and a player who isn't really playing (i.e. sends in a 3* Ed) might earn the same (s)he receives now (or worse, if rewards were scaled back after making changes). However, there would always be opportunity/incentive to battle an Odin in the Red, because your proportional rewards might end up being just as good for the investment you put in (less blood). In fact, this could be a great option for players worried they are not going to be doing as much damage. I also like the idea because it has... flavor. You have to admire flavor. Less blood to fight a weaker Odin. I like that.

The only problems I see with @hugo's idea are: it seems very different, perhaps scary, and perhaps complicated to implement. There would have to be a little rethinking to make it work.

Back to the origonal point: I'm not advocating for any change in individual rewards if Odin gained an "auto refresh." No one would be responsible for finishing Odins in the Red, however, which would benefit everyone.

[Mateja]

Right, it seems that we are (more or less) on the same page. I may have taken my frustrations with people who are not able to beat something and immediately go try to make devs ease it up and put them in my response. Sorry about that, entitlement of any kind makes my skin crawl.
As for the topic at hand, there are some great ideas on here that could even be combined to make a better experience for all of us. Only thing we can do at the end of the day is give our feedback and hope that devs listen.

[infinite dreamer]

I'm really enjoying Raid Boss so far. Rewards are fair and it's fun coming up with different methods to attack him. Hopefully the devs work out some of the kinks (like players getting frozen out), but it is still in beta. Cleaning out a low health Odin is not the worst thing, it allows the clan to continue and you still get some rewards. It's really been a fun challenge and great addition to LOTB.

[MuzakMaker]

I'm going to continue to be the dissenting opinion.

There should be consequences for not being able to do as much damage and not coordinating well. A lot of these requests (especially the auto refresh) are removing any group aspect of raids aside from an arbitrary group of players having their totals added.

Yes, it sucks trying to coordinate with a chat system that is only visible in one place and there is no way of notifying you that someone said something.

If your clan is infighting or picking on players for not doing as well as others, that just sounds like a toxic clan which is not the devs problem.

[thealchemist]

well I did a raid before where I had to clean up my own mess. so for one Sands of Blood I got a measily 2 or 3 tributes. After having a think about it, in this situation they could just increase the tributes you get for the kill, maybe a bonus 5/10? If you do enough of those you still get enough tributes to buy things in the clan store like character fragments. Any other tweaks outside of better communication abilities would probably alter the whole dynamic too much. As clans we need to work together to solve issues like Odin being in the red, not just when he's at full health.

[Puntwothree]

@thealchemist: I believe you’re suggesting a kill bonus (option #1), which yes, I believe does solve the problem. You don’t need much, just some incentive beyond what is there. If there was a small kill bonus and some other small effect (Odin rewards distributed immediately on kill to clan instead of delayed, or you get a ticker next to your name to show how many times you killed Odin) that might be even better. This second small “bonus” is not really a reward at all, but would show you’re a cooperator... which is great in Game Theory. If someone is taking on “clean up duty,” better they are recognized than be anonymous.

@MuzakMaker: Our clan is not having any problems, at lease on the surface. The fact remains that the situation is frustrating for all involved and could create problems. Odin can be better than that.

[Puntwothree]

New Idea #4, V. 2.03:

"Continue Button."

After defeating Odin, you have the option of continuing the fight. Odin pops up fresh, and you can keep going.

All the benefits of auto-refresh; all the satisfaction of killing Odin.

Rewards would all be capped at what they are now (both individual and clan) for a full clear. However, you could max your rewards no matter when you decided to enter the battle.

Eh? Eh? I know @Musakmaker doesn't like it :-p.

[MuzakMaker]

Of course I don't like it. At this point we're reaching a point where we're just trying to change the point of raids to better fit our wants instead of adapting to situation we have.

Want the max rewards possible for fighting Odin? Either wait for Odin X to refresh or remember that you can fight a lower Odin. A full Odin 9 grants more than a red Odin X.

Yes this should be a group effort, maybe we should have Odin X have the 4 Million HP added back.


We already get a reward for killing Odin X. He's back at full health so the clan can get more points.

[Puntwothree]

[Previous post deleted. Duplicate. My bad.]

Small point, but OK. Odin IX is not also in the read (theoretical). Now what?

If this were an individual challenge, I'm with you. Adapt to the situation; it doesn't need to be fair. When the Banshee Cosmic was broken and we were getting Banshee/LAD in gauntlet... and I already spent my LAD... I didn't send any tickets or make any posts. I tried to beat it, anyway. (And I did. With Killer's Ed. Boy, did that feel good.)

But we should not need to adapt to a situation that pits players against players, if unintentionally and not all the time. In this situation, the Devs should meet us halfway for a better experience for everyone.

I know you have your opinion and I'm not going to change it. Honestly, I wasn't planning on posting at all, but my "Continue Button" thing was still up on my screen and I thought I hadn't sent it off yet...

Still coming down off the high of having a working Pharaoh Dog Cosmic. OK? Don't judge.

[MuzakMaker]

It really does seem like the root of the problem is that you have a clan where everybody wants max rewards all the time and when they can't get those max rewards it pits those players against each other.

If your clan can't cooperate and give and take, that's not the devs fault and they shouldn't have to rework raids just to deal with that.

If all of the Odin's are in the red, then someone in the clan needs to just suck it up for the good of the team and be okay with only getting the minimum number of points.

I agree we shouldn't have to resort to outside resources to coordinate raiding.

There's also the fact that clans are limited to 30 people and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that small of a group to be able to work together and trade off clean up duty and soloing/doing massive damage.

Now of course as a player who wants all the shiny things and to max my own experience I always want to be able to do max damage to Odin. I just don't think that's a good idea for the game as a whole.

[Puntwothree]

I respect your opinion, but don't dis on my clan, man. (Or woman.. but that doesn't have the same ring to it.)

Did you miss the part where I said I would never kick a player for engaging with content and wanting to play?

The problem is, we have players hailing from probably about ten different countries speaking about four different languages. And our Discord is optional. (We'd like to keep it that way.) So 1) I want to encourage players to play, whenever they can. And 2) I don't want them to feel obligated to attack or not attack at certain times but 3) this shouldn't create situations deleterious to all players.

And I said at the very beginning that I'm part of the problem. I shouldn't have to feel guilty for doing a really good job in a difficult challenge, but leaving Odin in the red because RNG and Odin cheats after about ten turns (Attacking through shields, immunity, and invincibility, sometimes all at the same time. Where in his skill set does it say he can do that?). I've also (as I said) gone in, only to come out again and see that someone else posted they were going in moments after I decided to, or moments before I exited. Some of these times, we're going to step on each other's toes, coordination or no.

[MuzakMaker]

I (male, but yeah that phrase sounds so much better with man) did not intend to insult your clan and I agree that it would be stupid to kick a player for engaging content and wanting to play. If you felt insulted I do apologize.

The thing is, none of that in your statement, to me, sounds like a problem with how Odin is set up currently. Since the actual raid battle is primary focus we shouldn't be adjusting that because some tertiary functionality doesn't function well or properly. The primary is working just fine (aside from that wonkiness you mentioned which I agree is annoying).


There is no good way to coordinate - Not Odin Problem, in game chat sucks I don't think any of us are going to ever say that in chat feature is great.

Feeling obligated to attack or not attack - Not an Odin problem, that's purely clan culture and a result of the fact that the rewards are too valuable for a horribly broken part of the game.

Stepping on other's toes because of attacking at the same time - Again coordination issue. Still don't see how that requires an entire rework of how Odin's health works. Miscommunication can happen sure but adding in that Odin's health can fluctuate, with the dev team we got, is for sure going to introduce more bugs into the system.

But as I've mentioned all of this just a place for us to get our differing opinions out there and might all be irrelevant once this buggy and only accessible to a few players part of the game leaves beta.

We could see an entire restructuring or maybe my dissenting opinion get's swept under the rug as "can't please them all". I never meant to insult or belittle your opinion as I see where it's coming from and I do think it's very valid. But, the devs and CS read these forums and I just wanted to offer up my differing opinion so that hopefully they can get a more complete picture of how players are feeling.

Plus it's not like I have anything else to do right now in relation to this game since the servers are crapping themselves.

[ElvisIsDead]

The current system definitely needs tweaking. Since they changed the scoring, weak players inadvertently screw over the whole clan every time they play, by reducing the overall number of clan points available.

The clan feature is supposed to be about working together but is actively designed to turn clan mates against each other.

[Puntwothree]

The current system definitely needs tweaking. Since they changed the scoring, weak players inadvertently screw over the whole clan every time they play, by reducing the overall number of clan points available.

The clan feature is supposed to be about working together but is actively designed to turn clan mates against each other.

This is the reason I’m advocating a change; it’s not really about rewards.

If you’re the person responsible for putting Odin in the Red, as stated ^^, it feels bad. And that’s silly, because you’ve done a good job on a tough challenge. It it were an individual challenge, I would just kick myself a few times (figuratively speaking) and regroup. NBD. Good effort/Engagement shouldn’t “let the clan down.”

This is the thesis of my (at this point) novella. I’ll be adding a Table of Contents and Chapter Titles next.

[MuzakMaker]

So just because a top tier clan can't play 100% optimized it needs reworking? I still don't get why the possibility of leaving Odin in the red needs a rework of his health system entirely.

If they did implement this "auto refresh" we're just going to get the raid points required for each level raised back up which would only benefit those of us in the top tier clans. The game is not just for us.

If you honestly feel bad (or your clan makes you feel bad) about doing your best even if it leaves Odin in the red that is the problem.

You did your best, if what you left bugs you that much either cough up an extra SoB (or buy one) and clean up your own mess. Your roster can hold up to 600 characters, there's no way all 600 of them are optimized to solo Odin X each and everytime. Have some on hand that specialize in clean up duty. There are toons that capitalize on missing HP. I find those are super useful when cleaning up Odin.

[Puntwothree]

Compromise: All rewards based on damage dealt, maxed at 3000 raid points for clan and et cetera. (Difference between points for 100% Odin and 98% Odin possibly more frustrating than Odin in the Red. 1000 point difference? Seriously?) Small individual bonus for clearing an Odin no matter his starting HP

[Alvorada]

Compromise: All rewards based on damage dealt, maxed at 3000 raid points for clan and et cetera. (Difference between points for 100% Odin and 98% Odin possibly more frustrating than Odin in the Red. 1000 point difference? Seriously?) Small individual bonus for clearing an Odin no matter his starting HP

that would be a nice adjustment. 1000 points for less tha 5% of max hp is way to much.

[Hartacus]

As much as the killing off then back to 100% health does my nut in, if you can find a time he's at 90-100% health: PoM Ed with as high HP as possible. S. Banshee W/ Impulse, Necropolis W/ Ragnarok/Echo Cosmic and S. Onyx Son W/ Alchemy absolutely annihilates him in one run. Simple fact is save those till endgame and your clan will climb way up there in the ranked rewards

[Puntwothree]

@Hartacus: save what until Endgame now? I have Odin teams for Beginning, End, and Middle game. And they all kill. I can kill Odin 21 times easy. No need to save anything.

This post is not about getting advice for full kills. It is about making Odin fair so he is a force for clan unity as opposed to clan division. Someone going in on a full Odin and putting him at 98%... that subtracts from the clan’s potential (Fewer points can now be earned than had they not gone in). Odin should not be set up that way. I want to assume that person ^^ made an honest effort for the clan, and an honest effort for the clan should not be punished by the game’s reward system.

[MuzakMaker]

Again fully disagree. Odin's health is perfectly fine the way it's set up.

This still sounds like you have a toxic clan if people are getting upset because they have their "max rewards ruined". I've given plenty of reasons why his current set up can foster unity that I have listed throughout this thread.

TL;DR of those for a refresher, by having his health not regenerate you are actually forced to work together as a team to either take down Odin together (for smaller/newer clans) or coordinate/maximize your teams so that everyone who can solo odin does so in a way to fit those min/maxing needs(for the clans full of top tier players and/or whales).

If his health was always at 100% for everyone who attacks then it's just up to 30 players just having their totals thrown together which sounds a lot less like team work to me. There's no coordination or team work involved if you can don't rely on or (hopefully not) get hindered by your team.

[Rain88]

Again fully disagree. Odin's health is perfectly fine the way it's set up.

Perfectly fine?
99% damage = 2500 points + average rewards
100% damage = 3000 points + full kill rewards
The mathematics in me is outraged...

It's plain simple, it should be:
99% damage = 2970 points
100% damage = 3000 points

[Azile]

Perfectly fine?
99% damage = 2500 points + full kill rewards
100% damage = 3000 points + average rewards
The mathematics in me is outraged...

It's plain simple, it should be:
99% damage = 2970 points
100% damage = 3000 points

Agree 100% with this and rewards should be based on the % of damage you do to him with bonus rewards for finishing him off dead.

However, this does not fix or address the numerous issues present when 2 players enter and fight at same time because what happens is 1 player goes in, fights him from 100% to 0%. Meanwhile, while he was doing this, another player entered, did 20% damage and wiped. First player then gets rewards based on doing 80% damage instead of the 100%.

That mechanic is also a serious issue.

[Mateja]

However, this does not fix or address the numerous issues present when 2 players enter and fight at same time because what happens is 1 player goes in, fights him from 100% to 0%. Meanwhile, while he was doing this, another player entered, did 20% damage and wiped. First player then gets rewards based on doing 80% damage instead of the 100%.

From my experience it's not like that. You will get full rewards if Odin is at 100% when you start, no matter how many players are in or how much damage they do. If it suits you, the entire clan can go in at once and everyone will get max rewards.

[MuzakMaker]

Perfectly fine?
99% damage = 2500 points + average rewards
100% damage = 3000 points + full kill rewards
The mathematics in me is outraged...

It's plain simple, it should be:
99% damage = 2970 points
100% damage = 3000 points

That I do agree with (as it's a complaint about rewards not health), but the OP thinks that Odin should always have full health when you attack which is the point I disagree with.

[Puntwothree]

@MusakMaker please read the whole post. The Compromise eliminates the instant refresh from the equation.

I enjoy a good debate, but I thought we agreed you would stop bad-mouthing my clan on this thread? Please do so, or I will have to refer to you as NoiseMaker. I mean, it makes sense that a man who presumes a thing about a cloud would presume a thing about a clan he isn’t part of. But I am really, really asking nicely.

Points based on % damage, no refresh, small individual bonus for clear. This is the compromise. (Or if you like, idea.... 5? 6? Whatever.)

[Puntwothree]

One more thing... because I just can’t seem to get all my ideas into single posts today. The individual rewards don’t seem to be affected when you kill an Odin from 98%. At least not in any sense I care about (they’re always good). It’s just the Clan points that are hurt... which doesn’t make sense.

That’s all.

-Fan of the game; “the OP”; noise-reduction specialist

[MuzakMaker]

@MusakMaker please read the whole post. The Compromise eliminates the instant refresh from the equation.

I enjoy a good debate, but I thought we agreed you would stop bad-mouthing my clan on this thread? Please do so, or I will have to refer to you as NoiseMaker. I mean, it makes sense that a man who presumes a thing about a cloud would presume a thing about a clan he isn’t part of. But I am really, really asking nicely.

Points based on % damage, no refresh, small individual bonus for clear. This is the compromise. (Or if you like, idea.... 5? 6? Whatever.)

I never said "You're clan is toxic" I said if people are upset about other people screwing each other that behaviour is toxic. It was your own words that are making it sound like your clan is toxic.

And as you can see from any of my other posts (like my last one, did you read?) I do agree that points should be based off of damage. I only missed that you finally conceded that refresh is a bad idea, as I tend to only skim posts of those who resort to name calling.

I assumed when you were talking about the 98% you were still talking about personal rewards. That's a mistake on my end.

I skimmed and assumed. For that I do apologize.

[Puntwothree]

Oh... I conceded nothing. I still think “auto-refresh” is a good idea. It just wasn’t an element of this most recent idea. That’s why the most recent idea was a “compromise.”

You can call me a name, just don’t apply adjectives to my clan. Maybe I’ll call you @SoundsMaker, or someone who sometimes makes music, and sometimes makes noise. (Just another compromise.)

Thank you for acknowledging your skimming. I am also guilty of this from time to time.

[MuzakMaker]

Oh... I conceded nothing. I still think “auto-refresh” is a good idea. It just wasn’t an element of this most recent idea. That’s why the most recent idea was a “compromise.”

You can call me a name, just don’t apply adjectives to my clan. Maybe I’ll call you @SoundsMaker, or someone who sometimes makes music, and sometimes makes noise. (Just another compromise.)

Thank you for acknowledging your skimming. I am also guilty of this from time to time.

Than, we will still have to disagree. And once more I'm not saying your clan is toxic, I'm saying ANY CLAN that derides, chastises or any sort of other negative action towards an other playing how they want to play is toxic.

Just for reference you should look up Muzak and see if it's actually a good thing.

[Puntwothree]

Will do ^^. Haven’t done.

There has been no deriding or chastising, though, and whether or not you said it straight out I think we both know what your implication was. I am allowed to be displeased with implications.

The only thing I’m deriding and chastising is a reward system that invites division.

I think that point ^^ is to bed, at least on my end.

Point #2: of course we still disagree on some things. If we were both in total agreement on everything, we have both wasted a lot of time and a lot of words on bad skimming technique.

[Puntwothree]

Haha. So Muzak basically is noise?

I have to say that improves my opinion of you.

My Sig, if you hadn’t noticed, is basically a self-effacing admission that my thoughts are a mess, but read carefully and there are some good ideas in there.

[MuzakMaker]

Yep I of course agree that discourse is necessary for society.

However I stand by my words that if ANY clan is being disrepectful to its players than it's a toxic clan. If your clan does that, it's toxic. If not, than it's not.

And while I disagreed with you at many points not once did I call YOU names which you have been doing all morning. If you want we can carry this over to a DM thread where we aren't clogging the feed but until then I do want to make sure the devs are aware (as they do sometimes read the forums) that the are players who DON'T see a problem with how Odin's health is set up.

[Puntwothree]

Technically I didn’t call you a name, I implied that I *would* call you a name. At least that’s my story so long is yours is that you didn’t call my clan an adjective.

I apologize for any misinterpretations.

[Puntwothree]

Aside: this is how I’m reading your toxic comment. (That’s a pun. You used the word toxic, also: the comment was toxic. But you are not toxic, and I would never say or imply as much.)

I pointed out that the current reward system has the potential to cause division. You’re saying: if division is caused, the fault is mine.

So if I said a chair has the propensity to collapse, would you say I must be a bad sitter? Because the chair does not always collapse, so I must be sitting on it wrong?

And if so, aren’t you assuming my chair has collapsed? Because that’s not what I said at all. I just suggested one rebuild the chair.

About the name I didn’t call you... and for once I will be 100% genuine: I hope you weren’t offended. I didn’t really mean to offend you, and if I did I’m sorry. By your own admission, I basically called you by your chosen name. Right? Is it offensive to be called by your chosen name?

In my clan I’m called all sorts of things that I didn’t chose. I take them as terms of endearment, whatever they might actually be.

[MuzakMaker]

Aside: this is how I’m reading your toxic comment. (That’s a pun. You used the word toxic, also: the comment was toxic. But you are not toxic, and I would never say or imply as much.)

I pointed out that the current reward system has the potential to cause division. You’re saying: if division is caused, the fault is mine.

So if I said a chair has the propensity to collapse, would you say I must be a bad sitter? Because the chair does not always collapse, so I must be sitting on it wrong?

And if so, aren’t you assuming my chair has collapsed? Because that’s not what I said at all. I just suggested one rebuild the chair.

About the name I didn’t call you... and for once I will be 100% genuine: I hope you weren’t offended. I didn’t really mean to offend you, and if I did I’m sorry. By your own admission, I basically called you by your chosen name. Right? Is it offensive to be called by your chosen name?

In my clan I’m called all sorts of things that I didn’t chose. I take them as terms of endearment, whatever they might actually be.

The things is where I see a place for cooperation and unity you are seeing one for contention and division. The current health system encourages the clan to work together. The more you coordinate and work together the better your rewards will be. No reason to rework a crucial part of the raid because a clan can't work together.

In your analogy you see a chair that will break if you sit on it wrong and I'm wondering why would you sit on it wrong in the first place because almost any chair can be broken if you sit on it wrong.

Anything can be taken negatively or rude if you are looking for it to be. Just like the raid set up, sure I can sit there and whine and complain if other's aren't playing "as efficiently" as me but that is a personal problem that the game has no reason to fix. Either you can clean up your clan so everyone plays to your style or you can find a new one where players are of like mind. My first clan was trash, they had no regard to the clan as a whole so I left and found a clan that works together and fits my play style.

[Puntwothree]

Fair, mostly. I just want it on the record that I am neither whining nor complaining about the faulty chair. I’m just making reasonable suggestions about how it might be made less faulty.

Whining and complaining without offering suggestions is an idea I feel neither of us could get behind.

[Puntwothree]

I would add that my suggestions (especially the last one, which you seem to agree with.. though it does not give me everything I would prefer to get) do not destroy the cooperative nature of Odin, they only eliminate the (potentially) divisive aspects.

[MuzakMaker]

Haha. So Muzak basically is noise?

I have to say that improves my opinion of you.

My Sig, if you hadn’t noticed, is basically a self-effacing admission that my thoughts are a mess, but read carefully and there are some good ideas in there.

Similarly my signature addresses the fact that I've gained the reputation of being a "yelly boi" as one other player called it but has anyone asked why that old man is yelling at the cloud.

I do fully understand your stance, I just firmly disagree that group effort should be reworked because the group aspect is causing problems.

There are plenty of things that do need to be fixed about raids. People getting locked out, blood disappearing (purportedly fixed but I haven't heard from players if that worked), chat needs to be overhauled, there should be a way to tell if someone is currently in the raid, and probably many more things.

Once all that has been settled maybe then we can look into addressing Odin's health if a lot of clans still have issues with cooperating.

[scimitar]

I said that auto-update is perhaps what we need. Now I think that everything is correct. The current system encourages clan collaboration. There are questions about scaling rewards from damage, but here everything is simple - clear Odin completely. There are several things that can help you achieve results.
I will say the most obvious: Odin X is played only by those who clean it completely, the rest - IX

[MuzakMaker]

Fair, mostly. I just want it on the record that I am neither whining nor complaining about the faulty chair. I’m just making reasonable suggestions about how it might be made less faulty.

Whining and complaining without offering suggestions is an idea I feel neither of us could get behind.

True, I did not mean to say you were whining and complaining, simply that we both easily could have done so but instead went to the dedicated place to voice our concerns with the faultiness of the chair.

[MuzakMaker]

I said that auto-update is perhaps what we need. Now I think that everything is correct. The current system encourages clan collaboration. There are questions about scaling rewards from damage, but here everything is simple - clear Odin completely. There are several things that can help you achieve results.
I will say the most obvious: Odin X is played only by those who clean it completely, the rest - IX

We shouldn't discourage others from playing X if they can't solo it. Maybe they just need all 3 of their sands or they coordinate with other players and between all of their sands they can clear an Odin or 2. Both of which would be easier if we didn't have to resort to outside methods to collaborate.

[Muzzleloader]

Besides the loss of clan raid points, clearing an Odin above 60% health give nice rewards. So if someone loses due to wrong team/talis setup or the missed button it isnt a big deal to clear above 60%.

[Rain88]

Agree 100% with this and rewards should be based on the % of damage you do to him with bonus rewards for finishing him off dead.

However, this does not fix or address the numerous issues present when 2 players enter and fight at same time because what happens is 1 player goes in, fights him from 100% to 0%. Meanwhile, while he was doing this, another player entered, did 20% damage and wiped. First player then gets rewards based on doing 80% damage instead of the 100%.

That mechanic is also a serious issue.

That's absolutely true... there are plenty of issues in the raids especially what you mentioned about two people going in at the same time. I just thought changing the points to be proportional to damage could be the easiest thing to change right now until a better system is in place.

[IronMaster]

That's absolutely true... there are plenty of issues in the raids especially what you mentioned about two people going in at the same time. I just thought changing the points to be proportional to damage could be the easiest thing to change right now until a better system is in place.

it's not true. You easily may check it with your clanmates - enter at the same time, the first make 100K damage, the second make 10.5M damage. And each of you receive different rewards according damage dealt.
But the health of Odin will be counted by the damage of the player who entered the last. So it's better the strong player enter the last.

[Puntwothree]

it's not true. You easily may check it with your clanmates - enter at the same time, the first make 100K damage, the second make 10.5M damage. And each of you receive different rewards according damage dealt.
But the health of Odin will be counted by the damage of the player who entered the last. So it's better the strong player enter the last.

I don’t think it matters who entered last... only who exited last. But if the combined damage is equal to or greater than 100%, neither factor should matter... Odin should come back fresh.

This is one coordination trick to get around the faulty chair that is Odin. But it requires people to be in the same time zones (or at least similar...) which is not always the case...