Question on Order of Operations, for passives ,runes and ability stacks

[Jomama12341]

Trying to build a great team requires a lot of info from abilities, stats, all the way to passives and runes.
The most important is the order of operation. What order does everything tick?

These are a few question I have been wondering and I am sure at least a few others have also been wondering as well.

From what I have gathered they do have separate but stackable operations.

On Stacking ability's lets say you have 2 sets of freeze rune you have 2 different rolls like throwing 2 dice each one gives a separate 12% chance to freeze not a 24%.


With stacking here's an example base stat of 500 lets say you have a character passive ability raise hit points 10% and a rune that raises hit points 12%
would it be as separate categories like we see on freeze amulets? 500+50+60 =610

or would the second percentage be based off the percentage of the first? 500+50+6=556


As far as passives and the actual order of operation with stacks here's where it gets really important.

What order does the order of operations tick? Characters passive, runes passive, talisman passives, teammates passive, or opposing teams passive.

lets say you have a character whos character passive cleans off burn effects and heals you for 10% of your Max hit points and a rune that cleans off burn effect and heals for 12% of your with a chance to heal for 15% of your max hit points and a teammates passive to double all healing received. What order does all the passives and stats go now? Knowing this can make the difference between a character that gets wiped in 2 turns or one that can hang on for 6 turns in battle.

[zamasu]

Great questions & only the devs know the answer to these. Specially the order in whic buff debuffs are applied

[Muzzleloader]

If anyone can enlighten us on exactly how the prisoner or killer passive disable works, that would solve the eternal mystery.

[HK-47]

As far as I know, talismans do go first on the first turn, I believe. An immunity talisman will protect you from the Prisoner's first turn disable

[Jomama12341]

Thanks that’s a big help . If we can get more feedback from others or a helpful dev we could make a guide for the forums

[Olevipoeg]

Great questions & only the devs know the answer to these. Specially the order in whic buff debuffs are applied
I have serious doubts about it. :)

[Brickster]

I think is a very valid question to ask, and I would love to see an answer from any dev. This is probably not something in Ceeg's territory, but maybe he can convey the message.

If we don't get any answer here I suggest saving it for the next Q&A.

[EnricoPalazzo]

This question has already been asked in a much simpler time with less effects.
The DEVs could not even reliably state if passives from the enemy or from the home team get applied first.
I second Olevipoeg: I seriously doubt you will get an answer, much less an accurate one.
If the DEVs knew for certain, a lot of the current bugs could be resolved quite easily...

[Durandal_LOTB]

I can provide a few broad generalizations for you. While it's difficult to lay out the entire framework down to each individual detail in a quick forum post, hopefully this information helps to some degree.

In terms of stacking talismans, each individual trigger chance occurs separately. For example, if you are wearing two talisman sets that provide a "15% Chance to Stun a random enemy after every action.", you will have two separate instances of this that can then be modified by accuracy effects and potentially affect different targets.

As for effects that permanently increase or reduce characters stats, they are additive. For example, if you use an ability that increases your ATK by +10%, your ATK value will be 110%. If you use the ability again, it will be 120%. If your opponent then reduces your ATK by -70%, your current ATK value will then become 50% so long as that all the innate stat modifications are still active. Permanent stat effects like this will be reset upon death, but flat percentage bonuses from the likes of Bespoke Cosmic Talismans and some others will reapply the bonuses immediately upon revival so long as they are written as a constant effect (rather than a conditional effect such as "start of battle", etc).

In regards to combat order of operations, I can only give a brief overview for the time being. Please keep in mind that this is a generalized explanation aimed at helping you plan your teams for battle. When a match begins, the typical default queue of effects goes as follows:

1. Player Eddie Talismans
2. Player Eddie Passive
3. Player Ally 1 Talismans
4. Player Ally 1 Passive
3. Player Ally 2 Talismans
4. Player Ally 2 Passive
3. Player Ally 3 Talismans
4. Player Ally 3 Passive
5. Opponent Eddie Talismans
6. Opponent Eddie Passive
7. Opponent Ally 1 Talismans
8. Opponent Ally 1 Passive
9. Opponent Ally 2 Talismans
10. Opponent Ally 2 Passive
11. Opponent Ally 3 Talismans
12. Opponent Ally 3 Passive

As noted above, there is an order-within-an-order (an orderception, if you will), where the queue can be controlled somewhat based on the team order: Eddie > Slot 1 > Slot 2 > Slot 3. This is not a rule set in stone however, as each individual effect contained within each individual ability can be customized and weighted to occur earlier or later in the queue as desired with some restrictions. Custom weighting is usually done to make sure certain immunity effects can process regardless of where they are in the queue, but this in turn can still be cancelled by passive disable effects. As a result, it's impossible for me to remember offhand how every interaction will play out without fully investigating the characters and effects in play.

The one exception to most of this information is with "The Prisoner" character. He is coded uniquely in such a way to be a hard counter to this system, which is also why some of our passive effects will state something like "This effect can only be countered by Passive Disable applied at the start of battle.". Currently, his passive is the only one of its kind in the game to occur before any other talismans or passives are processed.

As I am not an engineer, take this information with a grain of salt. However, my goal is to help you leverage this knowledge to help understand why he is seen as a such a valuable component to many teams. As for "The Killer" character and his reported invisible disabling effects, this has yet to be reproduced, so do capture whatever footage you can to help if something is truly amiss. Please keep in mind that some seemingly bugged interactions are often the result of our limited visual playback system, where you only ever see the final result of what could have been a long string of bouncing effects and counters. If the playback system stopped to show every interaction, battles would often take forever to complete - having to watch each effect get applied and removed and reflected and baked at 450 degrees until golden brown and so on.

[MuzakMaker]

Has yet to be reproduced????

More proof that the team must not play the game. Here's the steps for replicating with 100% success(in my experience)

1. Have the killer on the enemy or your team.
2. There is no step 2. It is that simple.

No I will not even think about dealing with the horrible new bug submission forms for such a simple test especially when I still have plenty of unanswered support tickets.

[Durandal_LOTB]

Has yet to be reproduced????

Here's the steps for replicating with 100% success(in my experience).

Players occasionally write in about The Killer from time to time but none, sadly, have provided explicit evidence of this actually happening without question.

I err on the side of players as much as I can, but when I bring this character into battle and see that he is correctly applying Perfect Disable with visible negative effect icons on his unfortunate enemies, it's tough to escalate the issue any further without an angle of attack.

Considering other angles, a possibility that I can imagine happening is that - as a result of various passive effects firing off in succession at the start of battle, highlighted in my previous post - there might be situations where the Killer successfully applies Perfect Disable before another effect removes it. To the player, there is no Perfect Disable to account for once all the effects are finished processing. However, because the passive was at one point disabled, some elements of it (depending on how it was designed) might not resume until that character's next turn - hence the "invisible passive disable" effect.

While some ability descriptions have been getting longer in recent days (apologizes, small phone users), we've been working on better describing when certain effects trigger within passives so you can better anticipate when they will proc again. Most of the time, it's at the start of the user's turn so long as that their passive is no longer disabled. This is why you've also been seeing an increasing number of "until they die" effects to help make certain effects stick. If you ever see a character whose passive is not disabled, yet they are failing to block or stop certain effects, it's generally because it wont fire off again until their next turn.

We'll continue to polish elements these elements of communication as much as possible without causing too much bloat in regards to skill descriptions. Hopefully this information helps plan how you approach certain fights.

[MuzakMaker]

Players occasionally write in about The Killer from time to time but none, sadly, have provided explicit evidence of this actually happening without question.

Two points about that.

1. How do you know someone hasn't actually submitted proof with the all of the unanswered tickets?

2. Even if you did answer the tickets, as I stated in one of my tickets, even if I wanted to, attaching files doesn't work on the new form.

[IronMaster]

About killer. The most annoying thing is ability to turn off talismans.
Shinobi and Musashi have bespoke cosmo. They haven't Passive disable displayed, but has Doom
8585

[Maiden]

Thank Durandaral for coming by with some info and feedback! It's been ages since I saw someone from the team having a chat or replying something at the forums, for real very much appreciated!

Just one thing more, from time to time we actually see some of our feedback as implementation (like the life bar in Raids, etc) and that's it seems to suggest that you actually read/listen to us. But regarding tickets and reports, we still got the feeling that if the report isn't answered, is not read it at all.. and doing a video or writing the ticket it's also time-consuming for us... there is any way to knowledge our tickets? (without an automatic and empty reply ofc)

thanks for the info!

[Durandal_LOTB]

About killer. The most annoying thing is ability to turn off talismans.
Shinobi and Musashi have bespoke cosmo. They haven't Passive disable displayed, but has Doom


How recent was this screenshot taken? There was an issue with Musashi and Shinobi talismans in that they could be disabled by passive disable effects, but this has since been fixed in our last update. I believe the Banshee Cosmic suffers from this as well and is scheduled to be fixed soon (barring any other related issues). If the talismans in question are still acting up, please post about it with as many details as you can.


Thank Durandaral for coming by with some info and feedback! It's been ages since I saw someone from the team having a chat or replying something at the forums, for real very much appreciated!

Just one thing more, from time to time we actually see some of our feedback as implementation (like the life bar in Raids, etc) and that's it seems to suggest that you actually read/listen to us. But regarding tickets and reports, we still got the feeling that if the report isn't answered, is not read it at all.. and doing a video or writing the ticket it's also time-consuming for us... there is any way to knowledge our tickets? (without an automatic and empty reply ofc)

thanks for the info!

Your kind words are appreciated, Maiden.

I think more of the LOTB team would like to participate in the forum, but it really boils down to time management. I'd be down to spend all day answering questions on here if it weren't for the multitude of other tasks calling my name in a day's worth of work. :p

Please check out my response here for additional insight regarding bug reports and tickets: https://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?13104-List-of-bugged-features-in-the-arena-that-make-it-a-chore-and-annoying&p=126665&viewfull=1#post126665

[IronMaster]

How recent was this screenshot taken? There was an issue with Musashi and Shinobi talismans in that they could be disabled by passive disable effects, but this has since been fixed in our last update. I believe the Banshee Cosmic suffers from this as well and is scheduled to be fixed soon (barring any other related issues). If the talismans in question are still acting up, please post about it with as many details as you can.


This screenshot was made in spring (in april, if I'm not mistaken). It's good if problem was fixed, but I haven't The killer yet to check in arena defense((( Maybe someone else will check it later.