The Envy of All

[Puntwothree]

Envious Talis seem fair, as written. This is what they say....: “... [some stuff], the AI gets to revenge on every attack, no exceptions, [some stuff], cleanse all negative effects, including silver effects, FROM SELF if [condition that is always met].” In practice, however, Envious Talismans cleanse Self and All Allies, making them an Alchemy Set + Serenity for All + Revenge + Effect Copying + Enemy Effect Stripping + Random Immunities.

They are, I think, better than intended.

Now we’re facing a situation where a meta that was fairly diverse is becoming GREDAN. That’s GRE + Redan, +Icarus, +Ancient Mariner. This defense has weaknesses. It has weaknesses you have to squeeze and contort yourself through, after which Icarus can apply invisible passive disable effects, your toons will malfunction unexpectedly (too fast for screenshots, at 3x speed), and you’ll lose anyway.

If Envious worked as written, a little passive disable could go a long way. You could begin to poke holes in this defense... or any defense playing Envious. I think this would be the simplest and best solution to ensure the current meta doesn’t earn new nicknames and stagnate. That is: fix the talisman. It should only cleanse the character wearing it... or the text should be changed to reflect what it actually does (but this seems maybe too powerful for a 5-set?).

Thank you... and yes, this is a Bug, which should be reported under Bug Reports. It is, in fact: in Maiden’s Video Bugs thread. That thread is better and more thorough than this one. Plus pictures of many impossible things.

;-).

[Durandal_LOTB]

In our next release, we'll be fixing Envious so that it only (and correctly) cleanses self if the condition is met.

We'll try to catch what we can with any invisible Passive Disable shenanigans, but I'm suspect to believe that it may be a result the effect being applied and removed in quick succession so that it appears invisible. What that means however, is that the brief application of Passive Disable can cause some effects to not become available again until the affected character's next turn (depending on how the individual effect is designed to reactivate).

You'll also get a few interesting new tools to deal with "GREDAN" in the next release as well. Hopefully we'll see players thinking carefully about how they wish to set up their defense teams with new offensive toys in the mix.

[Maiden]

Thank you for that fix Durandal! Btw, Are you guys keeping an eye on this thread https://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?13755-Video-Bugs! ?

There are 3 pages of well-documented bugs in videos and screenshots. Does the next tunning update cover some of them?

[Maiden]

....but I'm suspect to believe that it may be a result the effect being applied and removed in quick succession so that it appears invisible. What that means however, is that the brief application of Passive Disable can cause some effects to not become available again until the affected character's next turn (depending on how the individual effect is designed to reactivate).


It may be, but it would not explain why PD (icon) disappears in situations where no talisman or toon has the ability to clean PD at the start of the battle. Also, there are clear situations where the toons just stay disabled for the whole match no matter how many times you clean that toon. Being Moony the most noticeable case, where does not matter if you clean him, he just stays receiving buff and debuff until he dies and resurrects again. Or Warrior Odin, Or Redan, the same... all have in common that the only way to disable them is at the start of the battle. All of them (if they were disabled at the start of the battle) don´t come back to "normality" after any turn, only until you kill and resurrect the toon. Mostly happens with Icarus talisman bespoke interaction. But there are so many other examples (even Lilith bespoke) producing similar effects that I don't think the problem is the particular toons but the Passive Disable situation at the start of the battle. Again pls see the Video Bugs post in the Bugs section.

Anyway, I'm not dev... I dunno... As soon as you got it fixed, everyone will be happy :P

[Puntwothree]

This sounds great. Thank you for the quick response!

[Puntwothree]

Actually, @Durandal: question and observation. I have a maxed M. Odin facing off against an Icarus with Bespoke. M. Odin prevents all negative effects... including Passive Disable, but can be Passive Disabled himself at the start of battle.

Here’s the question: if M. Odin is NOT disabled (Icarus is only a chance), can another character in your party still be disabled before Odin’s protections happen? And if so, should this passive be turned back on the following turn (as Odin has “prevented” negative effects)?

Ok... now: what if that other character is a character like Moonchild, who (himself) can only be disabled “at the start of battle.” Is Moonchild now vulnerable to neg. (and beneficial) effects for the duration of battle... or can he only get beneficial effects (Odin preventing negs.) for one turn?

This is all ^^ a frustrating situation, because if your explanation is correct, Odin will clear passive disable right after it is applied, 100% of the time, and you’ll never know if your character’s passives are working or not. (Also, with the passive disable/instant clear, “invisible” situation... it seems like passives of characters never come back online if they have been disabled... even characters with passives that really should come back and do in other scenarios, like “Block” toons.)

[Durandal_LOTB]

Some of us might visit the forum more or less than I do, but I usually check on things here at least once or twice a day.

I might not always have time to chime in on some of these threads, but I do try to keep an eye on things and share important information with the rest of the team when applicable.

We're addressing a few interesting things in our next update and once everything is solidified, you'll hear more about it sometime mid-month. Not everything will be revealed, but I'm especially excited to see how you guys react to some of the highlights in store for October. If you have a grudge against anyone that relies on revive effects, know that they'll have finally met their match.

As for some Passive Disable info,

If what you're successfully disabling is a "start of battle" effect, it won't trigger again even if the effect is removed. The same thing happens for any effect that reads in a way such as "once per battle" or "the first time ____ happens" etc etc. These are all effects that fire off once at the start of battle. Otherwise, if they were not start of battle effects, they would come back every time a character's passive reactivates, including if the character is revived - which could make certain effects tremendously frustrating to deal with.

In terms of Immunity effects, there are cases where some are designed to remove the effect and apply an Immunity after the fact, while others are designed to only place an Immunity on you (meaning that any negative effects that are already on you will remain). Keep in mind as well that the priority of passive/talisman effects activating is also based on the character's slot position (Eddie, 1, 2, 3) which can affect how some characters are able to protect others at the start of battle.

As for M. Odin and Moonchild, I can't recall in this moment how each individual effect in their passives are applied, but I can have their abilities investigated to as least ensure that they are functioning as designed and that they are also accurately describing how and when the effects are applied.

[Puntwothree]

M. Odin and Moonchild was an example, but it is not actually the most interesting example that concerns me.

Really, I'm curious about the M. Odin/Icarus interaction. What I'm hearing you say is, if Passive Disable is applied and then swiftly cleared, a passive can be "turned off," at least for a round. What I don't know is, 1) Does Passive Disable supersede M. Odin's ability (I think yes, otherwise Odin's Ability couldn't be passive disabled...) and 2) Does it (Odin's Ability) act like a cleanse effect?

Because if Odin's ability (preventing negs from being applied) doesn't protect a unit from negs that *should already be there*, to me that means that Passive Disable should show up and doesn't, and 100% of the time you can't tell whilst playing an M. Odin against an Icarus whether your units' passives are working or not.

I've had, for instance, S. Desert Guardian (3* Gauntlet All-Star) fight alongside M. Odin, facing an Icarus and... this is very hard to prove, but I'm pretty sure (s)he never blocked. "Block" is not a "Start of Battle" passive, and in other scenarios (i.e., you put Metal on W. Undead Rescuer) it can be turned on and off in the same turn and still work (Rescuer still blocks). Was Odin's coverage failing to protect an invisible Passive Disable that was applied to Guardian at the start of battle? (A Passive Disable that perhaps was applied correctly, but I never would have guessed was there?)

This is the main issue (visibility/invisibility). I'm fine with the mechanics if I can see them... but knowing whether or not your units' passives are working is very important. It changes how you play the game (for instance, I might spend power on a cleanse effect if I know I'm disabled).

I know you said you're working on the catching invisible shenanigans, and I thank you for your good intentions. I just hoped to clarify my concern with this particular scenario. Making Passive Disable appear while it is there, or somehow marking "Start of Battle" toons as having been Disabled after they have been Cleansed would be very useful.

Thank you again for your time.

[Olevipoeg]

That explains a lot. My first Gauntlet S round team have 2 Envious sets and is practically unbeatable.

[Maiden]

Many thanks for your comments and info Durandal, very interesting and appreciated. Please keep paying attention to that Video Bugs post (https://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?13755-Video-Bugs), I'll continue posting solid evidence there.

The Grudge? that movie with Buffy the Vampire Slayer uohh ...haha not for real, finally addressing GREDAN and the Eternal Revival Loop (it sounds like the name for a folk band) can't wait until October (wake me up when September ends....?) ok I'll stop saying bad jokes xD

[scimitar]

In the arena, things can happen that shouldn't happen. Debuffs on Redan. ???
In fact, I'm more interested in what will happen to the team: Tsar, blue Lilith, dog-pharaoh, Mariner. I don't think the very possibility of this team's existence is right8730

[Maiden]

Scimitar that's "the invisible passive disable" on Redan we have been talking about. She (possibly) got Disabled by Icarus Bespoke at the start of the Battle. So she can get those debuffs. Passive Disable at the start of the battle does not work consistently or break toons/talismans all together. after applied.

According to Durandal, some toons can be disabled and not regain their abilities until the next turn, or until they are revived even if they got cleanse. Honestly, at the beginning was kinda happy with the reply given, but the more I think about that, the less sense I find it (no offense Durandal) Which toons can be disabled and not gain again their abilities? all of them or only those who can only be disabled at the start of the battle? some of them? where is that written? why there is no icon showing what's happening? why there is no consistency about passive disable?

Moonchild passive doesn't say anything according to that: " This skill can only be countered by Passive Disable applied at the start of the battle." Czar says even less about his immunity to passive disable. It doesn't specify that they will lose their skill completely after being disabled and even cleanse. Why there is no icon or symbol showing that? This looks like one of those nefarious ambiguities in the description playing frustrating a role in the game...

Possible we'll get a fix and/or clarification with the next updates...

[Mario.Ahner]

Passive disable was always bugged and will always be bugged (nowdays passive disable can also disable some talisman passives), NF simply can not fix it

[Celobeast]

I've see a lot of these invisible effects, in some battles I saw doomed characters coming back to life invisible, and even killing them with perfect death they keep coming back.
One more tip for NF, put some visual effect in characters afflicted with innate passive disable, like from ghost of navigator, we don't know when the enemies has or not the passive blocked, can be a visual effect like the soul shackless from the power of GoN.

[scimitar]

Two times with different teams an incident occurred that arouses interest.
Eddie the Reaper is resurrected in an incomprehensible way after dying of a apparition, following the fury of Eddie LaD8743

[Celobeast]

Two times with different teams an incident occurred that arouses interest.
Eddie the Reaper is resurrected in an incomprehensible way after dying of a apparition, following the fury of Eddie LaD8743

I've seen a lot of this happening, it happens a lot with GRE, Icarus, Domino and some other specific characters and talisma, it seems related to the talisma that avoid the last blow, like icarus and gre bespoken.
Also, the invisible icarus, even with him doing anything or frozen, he starts to revive characters every turn.

[Puntwothree]

I've see a lot of these invisible effects, in some battles I saw doomed characters coming back to life invisible, and even killing them with perfect death they keep coming back.
One more tip for NF, put some visual effect in characters afflicted with innate passive disable, like from ghost of navigator, we don't know when the enemies has or not the passive blocked, can be a visual effect like the soul shackless from the power of GoN.

This. Some visible effects are going save a lot of tickets down the line.