Devs! Please leave the blue folks alone! :)

[Witkacy]

Dear Devs,

It seems that you not like blue, don't you? When I finally managed to upgrade my CR Eddie with max tallismans and skills after a lot of time and efforts - you nerfed him... When I do the same with Corru... No... AXIS General - you nerfing him as well as I read... So why always blue? Maybe try to nerf Samurai, Vampire Hunter, Rainmaker or Cyborg Eddie? (I don't have these yet) - either nerfing everyhing and everyone's toons or nothing - that's fair I guess :)

[OpticSugar]

Nerfing (balancing) is a way of leveling the playing field for PvP, not a way of punishing you (or blue). Nerfing everything would defeat the purpose of creating balance.

I feel your pain tho...

[Eagleknight]

How can you have a balenced pvp when it is based on chance. The chance you we get the right toons, the chance to get the right drops to upgrade, the chance for a skill to proc, the chance to get a perfect hit ect... This is not chess, checkers, or go those are balenced as everyone has the same starting pieces. Those are games of skill and strategy this is a chance game. Which is very fun but by its nature cannot be balenced.

[Witkacy]

Nerfing (balancing) is a way of leveling the playing field for PvP, not a way of punishing you (or blue). Nerfing everything would defeat the purpose of creating balance.

I feel your pain tho...

Optic :)

I know, but it looks how it looks :( When you get good characters in majority of of one class (blue in that case) and you build your teams using them and sson you'll know that two your best chars are nerfed it's not fair... You say balance for PvP - how great chances would have my (balanced) chars against those which are NOT balanced yet, or never will be... Fair? Or rather not? Joke not balance :)

[Aristo4]

How can you have a balenced pvp when it is based on chance. The chance you we get the right toons, the chance to get the right drops to upgrade, the chance for a skill to proc, the chance to get a perfect hit ect... This is not chess, checkers, or go those are balenced as everyone has the same starting pieces. Those are games of skill and strategy this is a chance game. Which is very fun but by its nature cannot be balenced.

Agreed on everything. It never can be 100% balanced. If this update leans towards the greater good (of god)= closer to optimal balance than what we have now then why not, though.

[Eagleknight]

I understand the need form striving for balance. But there are other ways to do it then nerfing a toon you were lucky enough to get. Let alone a specific class like blue.

[FlyingV]

How can you have a balenced pvp when it is based on chance. The chance you we get the right toons, the chance to get the right drops to upgrade, the chance for a skill to proc, the chance to get a perfect hit ect... This is not chess, checkers, or go those are balenced as everyone has the same starting pieces. Those are games of skill and strategy this is a chance game. Which is very fun but by its nature cannot be balenced.

Agreed. Nerfing as a rule is stupid. Why not improve some poorly-conceived characters if you must, or better yet leave things alone, in all the unequal glory that is life.

It is unconscionable in my opinion to have people work hard and commit resources on a character only to discover their hard work has been ruined by some myopic people who feel the need to 'fix'what is not broken. And if balance in fairness is REALLY the objective, I think it only fair that such affected players should expect compensation for ruined characters, like restored Evo shards and skill shards, that have now been wasted or compromised on the ruined/nerfed character

[Demoonchild]

When a char like Paharoh Eddie has a Fury that gives the whole team 3 turns of invincibility, and another one like F'n Visions Eddie which deals awful damage, stun enemies (not bosses) one turn and you get 2...(please dont respond with bullshit like AOF Extra turn strategies to avoid it or something like that..) One simply cannot discuss about "BALANCING"....

[OpticSugar]

A lot of you are only looking at this from your perspective, and that's understandable.

Striving for balance is absolutely the right thing to do. This is not like chess... where everyone has the exact same pieces. The idea here is that no matter how beastly a character can be, there should be several other things out there that are able to counter that. Learning about the characters' strengths, and weaknesses, and learning how to counter any situation that you are dealt with makes for great strategic gameplay. If there are some characters, abilities or talismans that are way out of balance (either way too underpowered or way too overpowered), then small adjustments need to be made so that they are not exploited unfairly (in the case of OP) or ignored by players (in the case of underpowered like F'n Visions Eddie). The more balanced the game becomes, the more fair it will be in PvP, and the more interesting the gameplay will become from a strategic standpoint.

Look at a game like Starcraft ][... there are three totally different races (Terran, Zerg and Protoss) with totally different builds, abilities, evolution paths, etc... Blizzard™ has done an incredible job to making sure that these three different races are balanced out, and that no matter how good someone gets at the game with one race... they can be countered using any of the other races if the opponent knows how to do it. This delicate process is always ongoing and each change takes the game closer to perfection. Then, when a player loses a match, It's the player's fault... it's not because "well he was up against the Demigorgon and nothing can beat the Demigorgon when he has the crystal of fate and the gauntlets of pain".

[Eagleknight]

Hahahajahaj blizard has done a crap job with balancing that's why they went from over 12 mill players to numbers so low they don't even post them.

But yes balance is nessesary the ability to counter is great. However, nerfing is not always the answer. I have played games since ultima online and in every game were pvp come in every one tries to balance the classes and ends up screwing up the pvp side or finding out that no matter what some classes will always be preferred or better.

I like pvp and this game but I hate having my time and effort wasted.

[FlyingV]

I mentioned in another thread that you do not have to touch a character in order to balance things in PVP. This is a nonsensical neutering of people's hard work.

Just because there are better characters or better set ups that people don't have access to at first doesn't mean that they should be entitled to a level playing field. I started this game and I got hosed with the luck of the draw but I kept at it and have been able to put together a solid team or two. I don't need to find out that would few things I've actually developed are in jeopardy of random changes.

PVP does not exist at the moment. Other issues in this game however are pressing. PVP should be made it to work around the characters, not the other way around… Especially since people have been invested in the system for quite some time now.

There can be magus league PVP, 3* limited leagues, and other ways to allow everybody to adjust and develop their corner of an imperfect world rather than unjustly level everything to a boring and frustrating humdrum.

[Witkacy]

Agreed. Nerfing as a rule is stupid. Why not improve some poorly-conceived characters if you must, or better yet leave things alone, in all the unequal glory that is life.

It is unconscionable in my opinion to have people work hard and commit resources on a character only to discover their hard work has been ruined by some myopic people who feel the need to 'fix'what is not broken. And if balance in fairness is REALLY the objective, I think it only fair that such affected players should expect compensation for ruined characters, like restored Evo shards and skill shards, that have now been wasted or compromised on the ruined/nerfed character

FlyingV :)

Well said... So if there really was such a goal to create everything balanced they should make a game with dozen balanced Eddies and so support characters having exactly the same balanced abilities yet different skins and looks and voila! Vive la égalité :) Have fun and play, people!

[slauki]

How can you have a balenced pvp when it is based on chance. The chance you we get the right toons, the chance to get the right drops to upgrade, the chance for a skill to proc, the chance to get a perfect hit ect... This is not chess, checkers, or go those are balenced as everyone has the same starting pieces. Those are games of skill and strategy this is a chance game. Which is very fun but by its nature cannot be balenced.

it's true it's not like chess, since luck will always matter. look at it as it were poker or backgammon. chances matter too in these games, but in the longterm the better player will win. in chess the better player will win almost 100% of the time. in backgammon 80% of the time and in poker 65% of the time. these games are perfectly balanced too (in the longterm). so even if some luck is involved, you will win in the longterm if you are the better player. the toons shoulnd't be that important, everyone should have the possibility to beat anyone, that's my opinion.

sure it's a little bit of a strech to compare these different games, but i want to make a point. balance is everything, if you are inetersted in a fair, competitive game. even if it's not possible to get a 100% balanced game, they should try to do the best that they can. if they take their job serious, this is just the beginning. balancingis a process and it won't stop. so we can easily expect more nerfs,but that's the only way to get as close to perfection as possible.

i can understand the frustration, but these changes are important for the upcoming development i think.

[OpticSugar]

There's also another part of the balancing process that we are not giving much attention to in these discussions:

Buffs!

There are probably just as many buffs done during these adjustments as there are nerfs. Noone seems to complain much about buffs.

[Eagleknight]

To me this just means you should only play the game once a day to use your troopers or else you will be screwed by the nerf bat. Because if you only play once every other day you have only a little to loose. Or you could stop playing for 6 months and hope the game is still here and fixed.

I'm sorry if I sound like a dick today. I'm just frustrated seeing that I have wasted almost 3'months of full time play on this game. Mabey I'm wrong and it's not as bad as I think it will be. But right now I'm at my limit.

[hold]

To me this just means you should only play the game once a day to use your troopers or else you will be screwed by the nerf bat. Because if you only play once every other day you have only a little to loose. Or you could stop playing for 6 months and hope the game is still here and fixed.

I'm sorry if I sound like a dick today. I'm just frustrated seeing that I have wasted almost 3'months of full time play on this game. Mabey I'm wrong and it's not as bad as I think it will be. But right now I'm at my limit.

I could level 7 toons up to 5*, another 6 runes to 5*, have 5 million gold, 7 skill shards, 25 rare souls (can't spend more, 100 spots taken) and 3800+ ironite ( a lot from LoL that I didn't spend). Only spending stuff carefully because I feel the game is still in a public beta state and delete elopement is very unpedictnle.Too much jumpy moves for my taste and I do understand what you mean - you feel sometimes punished supporting the game and that can't be good.

[Witkacy]

If we want to be such perfectly balanced and have perfectly balanced game - please remove the stars in evo runes! Let them be accessible equally by everyone even just starting the game - unlocking the access in further levels is not balanced enough (I mean fair...)... Please remove also stars from the chars - they all have to be balanced - they either all having the same number of stars or none - that's the balance...

P.S. EGK - Since Slauki and Optic are standing together - I'll take your side - it's about wasting people's time, efforts maybe money as well... Very unproffessional approach no matter what great words everyone using... Life and so world is not perfectly balanced... And we all have to live with that and it WON'T change... So why to destroy something good... Hate when some trying to be more saint than a Pope...

[FlyingV]

To me this just means you should only play the game once a day to use your troopers or else you will be screwed by the nerf bat. Because if you only play once every other day you have only a little to loose. Or you could stop playing for 6 months and hope the game is still here and fixed.

I'm sorry if I sound like a dick today. I'm just frustrated seeing that I have wasted almost 3'months of full time play on this game. Mabey I'm wrong and it's not as bad as I think it will be. But right now I'm at my limit.

I'm not even sure how these new developments might even affect me if they do it all. Nevertheless, I feel that our voice needs to be heard on the matter even if it doesn't have a huge impact on me or you personally… This time.


I urge extreme caution with the manner by which adjustments are made. In order to make a game thrive you need a core group to maintain its existence and spread the word. there may come a time or two where the player has to take it in the rear, but when this is done without extreme care and consideration, the players WILL leave, and then it won't matter after all.

We can't know all the hard work the developers have invested into their plans and the specifics of what those plans are, but again, I would suggest the philosophy as a rule should be to move the development around the play and the players, not the reverse.

[OpticSugar]

If we want to be such perfectly balanced and have perfectly balanced game - please remove the stars in evo runes! Let them be accessible equally by everyone even just starting the game - unlocking the access in further levels is not balanced enough (I mean fair...)... Please remove also stars from the chars - they all have to be balanced - they either all having the same number of stars or none - that's the balance...


Okay that's just taking this to the extreme. When we talk about balancing a game, we mean being balanced between similarly equipped players of a similar XP and skill level. All PvP games have some kind of matchmaking process that's purpose is to select players of similar skill levels based on a number of different critera so that an experienced player isn't matched up against a noob, or a well outfitted player isn't matched up against someone with 1* talismans. The idea being that two players of comparable skill level and similarly equipped should have a good match that allows the better player to be the victor.

[FlyingV]

Okay that's just taking this to the extreme. When we talk about balancing a game, we mean being balanced between similarly equipped players of a similar XP and skill level. All PvP games have some kind of matchmaking process that's purpose is to select players of similar skill levels based on a number of different critera so that an experienced player isn't matched up against a noob, or a well outfitted player isn't matched up against someone with 1* talismans. The idea being that two players of comparable skill level and similarly equipped should have a good match that allows the better player to be the victor.

But aren't similarly-experienced players balanced as is? I mean, how many level 85 players are out there that do not have a well-built team with similarly strategized talismans? Second, as you mentioned there are mechanics that make matchmaking perfectly straight forward… Such as matching attack magic and hit point values when determining potential opponents. If two identical characters with equal stats have dramatically unequal talisman representation, then the mechanic will detect this and they won't be pitted against each other anyway.

[slauki]

.. Life and so world not perfectly balanced... And we all have to live with that and it WON'T change... So why to destroy something good... Hate when some trying to be more saint than a Pope...

life and world are not perfectly balanced for sure...but the most games are...look at monopoly, stracraft, chess ludo, backgammon ;-)
some characters/talismans are not as strong as they were before. but that doesn't mean, that they are useless or trash now.
they are less effective, but my corrupt general will still be badassas hell. so i don't feel, that i wasted my life, because he is getting nerfed. i had a
good time anyway and if the game starts to suck, i can move on. it's just a game...

In my opinion the faul isn't the nerf they released today,the fault was that they released a game in july with very important leaks. but unfortunatly that's very common in the software scene. cannot imagine any other industry, where they release and sell products with such poor quality (let's forget about samsung note 7 ;-). that's why i understand the frustration of some players. maybe the game will be finished in 6 months, i hope it will survive through the months...

[Ian]

I liked the PvP in Wow, EVE, and a couple of lesser known games. Even though they weren't always perfectly balanced there was plenty of strategic depth and you knew that if you lost to an opponent of similar 'level', it was because you were out-planned, out-thought, or out-fought. But one thing in common was that with fairly few exceptions, if you needed something to improve your character, ship, guild, whatever - you could go work for something, or trade with others to get it. Need a particular armour? You can grind mobs for it, buy it, or maybe even make it.

Here? Need a particular ally, or talisman? good f--king luck with that. You can literally play every day for a week and not get it, and there's no *way* to get it unless you get very very lucky. I wouldn't mind a Carriage Rider Eddie, yet if I throw precious and expensive ironite or trooper badges at getting it, I may still just end up with more stupid owl cultists; it's perfectly possible I could never actually get the Eddie I want despite doing everything in my power to obtain it, even to the detriment of my remaining characters (because why buy souls when i gcould be getting skill shards - gotta level Acrid Smoke, right?). So when the one or two decent characters you have got are going to have their skills nerfed in the name of balance, its annoying, because there was no balance to start with; not everyone has the same characters, or gets the runes they need for upgrades, it comes down to sheer luck.

[Witkacy]

Okay that's just taking this to the extreme. When we talk about balancing a game, we mean being balanced between similarly equipped players of a similar XP and skill level. All PvP games have some kind of matchmaking process that's purpose is to select players of similar skill levels based on a number of different critera so that an experienced player isn't matched up against a noob, or a well outfitted player isn't matched up against someone with 1* talismans. The idea being that two players of comparable skill level and similarly equipped should have a good match that allows the better player to be the victor.

Ok, fair enough... But then again what fun would be of a match between two noobs or two experienced pleyers? I say boring... True excitement would be if you being a noob defeat the veteran... Not possible? David defeated Goliath though :) And that would be challenging to win tho... Not forcibly making everyone's equal... I was gifted by some great chars - I mean superb, premium - you name it - and now feel like somebody has stolen something from me... I am having what I have - not having everything, yet someone else having another great characters - which is great - the differences are great... All this making me play more and more... Cause I'd like to have more different characters - not balanced... And that WAS beauty of the game... Or if so... The plans were that to make everything balanced for PvP they should say a word to players much earlier about the changes that not invest too much time, money, efforts, blood, sweet and, ironities, grain of sands and whatever else to build your charaters whom will be nerfed later on... But who wish to play such a game then? I guess less people would pay for rare souls pack, skill shards etc. - all this because they would like to have some better things than others (at least in theory)... So where you see the balance, Optic?

[OpticSugar]

Ok, fair enough... But then again what fun would be of a match between two noobs or two experienced pleyers? I say boring... True excitement would be if you being a noob defeat the veteran... Not possible? David defeated Goliath though :) And that would be challenging to win tho... Not forcibly making everyone's equal... I was gifted by some great chars - I mean superb, premium - you name it - and now feel like somebody has stolen something from me... I am having what I have - not having everything, yet someone else having another great characters - which is great - the differences are great... All this making me play more and more... Cause I'd like to have more different characters - not balanced... And that WAS beauty of the game... Or if so... The plans were that to make everything balanced for PvP they should say a word to players much earlier about the changes that not invest too much time, money, efforts, blood, sweet and, ironities, grain of sands and whatever else to build your charaters whom will be nerfed later on... But who wish to play such a game then? I guess less people would pay for rare souls pack, skill shards etc. - all this because they would like to have some better things than others (at least in theory)... So where you see the balance, Optic?

You make some good points and you are certainly entitled to your opinion of what type of game you enjoy. Personally, I don't imagine that the balancing tweaks are ever going to be that extreme, unless the imbalances are that extreme (as in the corrupt commander). I personally have a ton of green overwhelming and red fierce maxed talismans. I don't think they will be useless after this, they're still maxed talismans! I like the fact that now - all the other talismans are suddenly viable options for us, whereas before, everything that wasn't overwhelming or fierce was pretty much vendor trash. The corrupt commander is still going to be a beast of a character. If I was lucky enough to have one, and I invested in a bunch of skill shards, I'd still be happy that I had him. Maybe having the unfair advantage of stunning the entire team was fun against the ai, but I would not want to face one of those guys stunning me 90% of the time in PvP. There is just no question that things like this needed to be fixed if the game were to be played against other humans. I would feel weird and selfish if I had a character in a PvP arena that was a guaranteed win. I would also get really bored with it.

I don't mean to butt heads with anyone. I know we all love this game, and change is hard to swallow when it affects us negatively. I'm just hoping that when the dust settles, we give it a fair chance. It is also possible that I'm wrong and this game is just going to suck after this update. If that is the case, then I will certainly stand corrected. I hope that's not the case.

[The Educated fool]

if the game starts to suck, i can move on. it's just a game...

This is something I think we all need to remember... though I have no plans to move on until I finally see for myself just how the PvP and actual content changes go down. I've put in too much time not to satisfy my curiosity. :cool:

[Kardas]

I haven't really kept a close eye to this thread, but other than Magus Allied Soldier and Corrupt General, is there anyone getting nerfed? Heck, the Corrupt General's getting an AoE debuff added anyway!

I'd say that indirectly, the blue guys are getting buffed, since the Talismans of the Warriors and Sentinels are getting brought down to Magus level

Plus Speed of Light is getting a few buffs, and I saw both Pharaoh Dogs get some nice things too

[GreyMouser]

I did not see where CR Eddie was getting downgraded in the charts? REALLY hope this is not the case as it looks like my allied soldier is getting taken down to 1 testicle.

[Esquatcho]

Just one game testing so far today & blue magus doesnt seem to be reduced that much. Sure reflect wont win hard level games by itself, but he still packs a punch!

And OH MY SoL Eddie now! Woot! Mines doing about double the damage and healing 20X more!