Suspect Discussion: Prisoner

[Sparton_LOTB]

What It was Designed For
A character which supports his team by locking down enemy passives (with his passive) and abilities (by sealing/stunning).

What We Got
A character which defines the top-end PVP meta so much that he counters nearly every defensive strategy you can set up without taking a turn… and largely cannot be countered (as having a Prisoner sort of levels the playing field, but that doesn’t stop him from doing what he does).

Why This is a Problem

Almost every interesting team composition choice that uses passives to help weather the first turn is nullified, reducing counterplay options
Because the first turn or two are so critical (with many matches with 5 star characters only lasting 1-3 rounds), disabling all enemy first turn passive is disproportionately powerful


What We Could Consider Changing

Make it so his passive applies a block passive status effect to a random enemy each round (reduce amount of impact)
Make it so his passive doesn’t work on the first turn (reducing the scope of what he counters)
Make it so his passive works on only certain passives (such as passives which aren’t first turn effects)
Make it so his passive can still affect all enemies each turn, but only has a chance to per enemy (retaining his value most of the time while not being a sure thing each turn)
Introduce talismans which have set effects that provide Damage Reduction Shields, Immunity, etc (giving non-passive options to survive the initial onslaught)




Please let us know your thoughts on this character in the comments. Keep in mind that this is not a for sure set of changes we’re going to do to this character; this is merely where our appraisal design-side is of the character, and we want to discuss this more with the community to get a better sense if changes are necessary for this character or if this character is fine as is.

[Sag7272]

I'd personally vote for a tallisman set option, as it can make the matchup less predictable and prevent nerfing a character that isn't much more than what would be nerfed rendering him somewhat useless in PvE ...

A tallisman set have also the advantages of giving passive abilities to a whole new set of characters opening more diversity than a straight prisoner nerf would...

[zamasu]

I pretty much gave a few ideas in another thread. Glad that you devs are considering possible solutions:


1. Nerf prisoner's passive: "75% to disable one passive, 50% to disable 2 passives and 15% to disable all passives" or something along those lines.
2. Introduce more characters with the same or counter passive as prisoner
3. Introduce a new set of talismans, one that will grant the wearer "immunity to his passive", for example if gunner golden sons wear this sets of talismans his passive cannot be disabled by prisoner's one. I think this will be a great counter to prisoner's
4. Make a PvP rare "special reward" that grants the player first turn in any given match

[Shaolin85london]

I'd personally vote for a tallisman set option, as it can make the matchup less predictable and prevent nerfing a character that isn't much more than what would be nerfed rendering him somewhat useless in PvE ...

A tallisman set have also the advantages of giving passive abilities to a whole new set of characters opening more diversity than a straight prisoner nerf would...

I do agree with Sag, new talisman set s gonna be a further inspiration also for new toons with new abilities and also a revaluation of old toons. Very good thread, Sparton.

[mikmar]

My question is:
Is pvp so nice to justify all the nerf that is spreading to many chars ?
I'm not included in the pvp beta test, so I don't know if it's worth....
Pvp influences campaign gameplay causing disadvantages, and I'm seeing only that.
What are the advantages of pvp that can improve the campaign mode ?

[Mizrael]

A character i fell in love with already in my noob days in the campaign story, first play through (i didn't even know that he would be a powerful playable character)
Haven't seen him drop in a single soul i ever opened...sadly

On topic:
My vote too goes to the talismans. the prisoner plays also an important role in the PvE and any nerfing would turn him into a mediocre character, just not worth the slot.
considering his rarity, he should feel OP,same as other 5* characters i have never seen (CG,viking, tailgunner,pharaoh,aso).

[Derthona13]

Nerfing is bad for those that invested skill shard on a toon (I don't have the Prisoner by the way). Talismans seems the best option among the proposed solution.
And a way to evolve talismans quickly (BNW) would be appreciated

[Shaolin85london]

I don't think adding new talisman sets to the game will solve anything for pvp seeing that they can only be trigger on perfect attacks. Which we all know auto almost never hit perfect attacks without manually playing yourself.

There are already some chars in the game like Desert Marauder or Assassin pyro soldier, who got a perfect hit passivity, so they have a chance to trigger talisman effect. Furthermore they are dropped both at 4* so isn't so impossible get them from bos.

[invictus]

There are already some chars in the game like Desert Marauder or Assassin pyro soldier, who got a perfect hit passivity, so they have a chance to trigger talisman effect. Furthermore they are dropped both at 4* so isn't so impossible get them from bos.

I don't think I've ever seen an Assassin Pyro. You have one?

[Aristo4]

What We Could Consider Changing

Make it so his passive applies a block passive status effect to a random enemy each round (reduce amount of impact)
Make it so his passive doesn’t work on the first turn (reducing the scope of what he counters)
Make it so his passive works on only certain passives (such as passives which aren’t first turn effects)
Make it so his passive can still affect all enemies each turn, but only has a chance to per enemy (retaining his value most of the time while not being a sure thing each turn)
Introduce talismans which have set effects that provide Damage Reduction Shields, Immunity, etc (giving non-passive options to survive the initial onslaught)



Make it so his passive applies a block passive status effect to a random enemy each round (reduce amount of impact)

Make it so his passive can still affect all enemies each turn, but only has a chance to per enemy (retaining his value most of the time while not being a sure thing each turn)

One of the above are the only options imo. Which is better is to be discussed, both have + and - .

A passive that's not working on the first turn is a bad idea imo,since most of them are first turn based anyway (moaning from prisoner owners).....working only against certain passives not appealing also (which to include and which not? - incoming moaning)....introducing talismans? why should I be forced to equip most of my team's chars with those to face a certain OP char? (no thx - my own moaning here).

[Shaolin85london]

I don't think I've ever seen an Assassin Pyro. You have one?

Yes I got one and he does same passivity work as well as marauder does, but presently the second one passive is overpowered due a bug that it's already been detected and ll fix in a future update, I guess

[Sag7272]

I don't think adding new talisman sets to the game will solve anything for pvp seeing that they can only be trigger on perfect attacks. Which we all know auto almost never hit perfect attacks without manually playing yourself. So my option would be to only have his passive work on 1 enemy per round. And as for angel of fear which is not mention. I think his passive should also be changed to giving 2 members on his team a extra turn instead of all.

If the new sets where to act as a passive unaffected by prisoner ability anyone could "immune" self from him, no nerf needed for ANY character this way as you could build yourself passives out of talismans as a solution if you don't have right characters..

[slauki]

i appreciate the discussion and the in depth analysis regarding the problems he cause:

i have one additional counter idea for the prisoner:

what if "immunity" save us also from prisoners passive? so he cannot remove our passive if immunity is on.

he would have his natural counter and there are some chars which have an immunity passive or who can give the party immunity. that sounds good to me since it would give us more room for tactical maneuver. the game would gain some tactical depth too.

and yeah i agree with aristo, why should we be forced to equip our team with specific talismans only to counter a OP char?
but i could also live with that solution although i wouldn't love it.

i would opt for the seal one passive option or something similar. But the problem is, that very few chacters have passives, so if he seals more the one
nothing would change since there are maximal 3 passives available per match.

but my favourite solution is immunity > passive agression :P

ps: many more thoughts, but the broken machanic thread contain all relevant information so no need to get repetitive...


Edit:

point 3: also sounds okay, that he blocks all not first turn passioves like aof extra turn, block and revive. so we could survive the first round without beeing frozen or dead.
btw: what about if prisoner removes all passives, also the passives of the own team? we had that suggestion in the other thred, sounds also okay for me.

[Sparton_LOTB]

Man, we got a handful of off topic comments faster than I thought it would.

Please keep the discussion on topic (ie specifically relating to the Prisoner/dealing with him/why he shouldn't be nerfed/etc). I'll be deleting any comments/sections of comments which are off topic without prejudice. EDIT: Actually, maybe it wasn't that bad; tangential discussions relating to countering the Prisoner is OK, I guess.

Also, even if I don't respond to many of the comments and suggestions, we're reading everything that's coming in. Definitely some interesting suggestions we hadn't thought of.

[Sag7272]

Just imagine how unuseful he would become in PvE with a one sealed passive or something...
In lightbrigner deactivating one troll can't even imagine how unuseful in LoL with only one or two passive sealed? Sound like he'll be collecting dust and become a false joy to get one like a green pyro...

[Kaz_LOTB]

There are already some chars in the game like Desert Marauder or Assassin pyro soldier, who got a perfect hit passivity, so they have a chance to trigger talisman effect. Furthermore they are dropped both at 4* so isn't so impossible get them from bos.


I don't think adding new talisman sets to the game will solve anything for pvp seeing that they can only be trigger on perfect attacks. Which we all know auto almost never hit perfect attacks without manually playing yourself. So my option would be to only have his passive work on 1 enemy per round. And as for angel of fear which is not mention. I think his passive should also be changed to giving 2 members on his team a extra turn instead of all.

Just to be clear, the new Talismans we will be introducing allow characters to have an Immunity, Shield, Counterattack, etc. buff for 1 turn at the start of battle (they can be stacked to extend the duration). These Talisman Passive effects cannot be disabled by the Prisoner or other passives.

-Kaz

[slauki]

Just imagine how unuseful he would become in PvE with a one sealed passive or something...
In lightbrigner deactivating one troll can't even imagine how unuseful in LoL with only one or two passive sealed? Sound like he'll be collecting dust and become a false joy to get one like a green pyro...

hmm i don't thinkt PVE is so important, as i stated in the other thread i feel PVP is the future. But yeah he wouldn't help you in the troll levels anymore, that's right.


Just to be clear, the new Talismans we will be introducing allow characters to have an Immunity, Shield, Counterattack, etc. buff for 1 turn at the start of battle (they can be stacked to extend the duration). These Talisman Passive effects cannot be disabled by the Prisoner or other passives.

-Kaz

actually i thought about the talisman solution:

maybe it's not that bad, since it would also give us plenty of new options not only against the prisoner, also for the game in total. would give us more tactical opportunities.

so maybe the solution is better than i thought at the first glance. but it could change the whole game dynamic, depending on what talismans you are planning to introduce. if you don't do it carefully, you could create plenty of more options to make ridiculous OP tactics possible. some tactics, we cannot even imagine now...
so it would be dangerous to change the whole dynamic, only to counter a single character....

[Frost]

boy, I don't want to be in your skin now devs. This is a really hard one. Well, let me consider a bit:



Make it so his passive applies a block passive status effect to a random enemy each round (reduce amount of impact)


I don't think this one is a good idea. Could introduce more bugs, for example block a passive on an Eddie (does not have passives) instead of a Troll. Also this would de-characterize Prisoner.



Make it so his passive doesn’t work on the first turn (reducing the scope of what he counters)


This also no good. Since the first turn is so powerfull if you disable it in the first turn this would destroy him for teams that don't go first. We would have the same problem in the end, but this time Prisoner would be very very underwelming.



Make it so his passive works on only certain passives (such as passives which aren’t first turn effects)


This would also create a lot of bugs. Besides it is the same as removing Prisoner passive. He is there for this reason, and disablinf only for the first turn could be disastrous for the team if it goes second.



Make it so his passive can still affect all enemies each turn, but only has a chance to per enemy (retaining his value most of the time while not being a sure thing each turn)


This is one of the best solutions so far, althought I think the last one is better (see below). If well done this could make him viable in both defense and offense, introducing RNG that is something cool about this game and its PvP: you never know what will happen next.



Introduce talismans which have set effects that provide Damage Reduction Shields, Immunity, etc (giving non-passive options to survive the initial onslaught)


IMHO this would be a really good solution, because could make even more toons viable in PvP. Right now for example no one uses PSS: he's squishy, easily countered, not great damage, just heal for utility, hard to land his debuff. But, if we change for example Explosive talisman so that it gives explosive shield to all allies every turn, returning damage? Or Magus CotD with a Cyclone talisman that gives cyclone shield to all allies and freeze enemies at the end of turn?

This has a really large potential to be a game changer in PvP. And the good is: counters Prisoner and Blue Bat and Death Dog. The only con is that we'll have to farm and level a whole new set of talismans, especially because they might be 3 set, so it mighjt take some time to see them shine.

[Aristo4]

Just imagine how unuseful he would become in PvE with a one sealed passive or something...
In lightbrigner deactivating one troll can't even imagine how unuseful in LoL with only one or two passive sealed? Sound like he'll be collecting dust and become a false joy to get one like a green pyro...

He will still be useful deactivating 2/4 trolls out there....think of people with no CR and no prisoner who fight them with their passives on for months ;)

[AmBush-UK]

Make it so he drops instead of Corrupt Ox Cultists, that way everyone will get one
If everyone has it no issue lol :p

[Kaz_LOTB]

so maybe the solution is better than i thought at the first glance. but it could change the whole game dynamic, depending on what talismans you are planning to introduce. if you don't do it carefully, you could create plenty of more options to make ridiculous OP tactics possible. some tactics, we cannot even imagine now...
so it would be dangerous to change the whole dynamic, only to counter a single character....

We've had PvP focused Talismans planned for a while now. It just so happens that a few of them would help add some counterplay to characters like the Prisoner.

Also, the buffs generated by the Talisman Passives are still just buffs and can be stolen, stripped, etc. by other character abilities, so we're less worried that they will create a new problem as there are already plenty of existing counters to them.

-Kaz

[Sag7272]

We've had PvP focused Talismans planned for a while now. It just so happens that a few of them would help add some counterplay to characters like the Prisoner.

Also, the buffs generated by the Talisman Passives are still just buffs and can be stolen, stripped, etc. by other character abilities, so we're less worried that they will create a new problem as there are already plenty of existing counters to them.

-Kaz

Really interesting...
Could open so many possibilities 😊

[Demoonchild]

i appreciate the discussion and the in depth analysis regarding the problems he cause:

i have one additional counter idea for the prisoner:

what if "immunity" save us also from prisoners passive? so he cannot remove our passive if immunity is on.

he would have his natural counter and there are some chars which have an immunity passive or who can give the party immunity. that sounds good to me since it would give us more room for tactical maneuver. the game would gain some tactical depth too.

and yeah i agree with aristo, why should we be forced to equip our team with specific talismans only to counter a OP char?
but i could also live with that solution although i wouldn't love it.

i would opt for the seal one passive option or something similar. But the problem is, that very few chacters have passives, so if he seals more the one
nothing would change since there are maximal 3 passives available per match.

but my favourite solution is immunity > passive agression :P

ps: many more thoughts, but the broken machanic thread contain all relevant information so no need to get repetitive...


Edit:

point 3: also sounds okay, that he blocks all not first turn passioves like aof extra turn, block and revive. so we could survive the first round without beeing frozen or dead.
btw: what about if prisoner removes all passives, also the passives of the own team? we had that suggestion in the other thred, sounds also okay for me.

Lately we are disagreeing alot my dear dutch friend!!

I believe that your "immunity passive" solution, will filled PVP with Angel Of Pain/Death Dogs + Artillery Dogs+Hellhound teams, and thats looks not that cool to me, since every team would have 2 of the mentioned chars + Mummy......
Cancel passives starting on second turn, just will make him useless on campaign or LOL Dungeon...
The option of 100% block one random enemy passive, 75% 2 enemies, 50%3 and so on sounds more likely to me...(% to be defined anyway)
The talisman solution will break actual builds on any character.

[BillLion]

i appreciate the discussion and the in depth analysis regarding the problems he cause:

i have one additional counter idea for the prisoner:

what if "immunity" save us also from prisoners passive? so he cannot remove our passive if immunity is on.

he would have his natural counter and there are some chars which have an immunity passive or who can give the party immunity. that sounds good to me since it would give us more room for tactical maneuver. the game would gain some tactical depth too.



I like this idea a lot. Not loving the talismans idea because very much.

[MrFreeze]

I think the talismans sound pretty interesting. What happens when you put a blue bat in there though?

The prisoner by himself isn't a problem in my opinion. It's the way he can be combined with others that causes the issues. Changing him might not be the best fix. Maybe looking at some of those other characters would solve the problem better.

I don't have a prisoner by the way.

[Kraznoff]

I do not like the idea of talismans that will be able to counter because that will take WAY too long. We're talking about an entire set of new talismans that need to be created and tested for bugs. Honestly no offense intended, but with the track record of the game this will set back the release of PVP, BNW, Night City, and most importantly sacrifice by many months. This is a needlessly complicated solution for a simple problem. The prisoner's passive should just have a chance of randomly blocking passives each round. This still makes him very useful but you won't automatically put him on any team and it solves the first round problem. You guys can still create awesome new talismans, but do it after you release all of the other promised content.

[RCarter]

Why not just ban the Prisoner from PvP?

Seems a whole lot easier. And won't wreck him for other aspects of the game.

[invictus]

Why not just ban the Prisoner from PvP?

Seems a whole lot easier. And won't wreck him for other aspects of the game.

Now here's an idea that makes sense. Either this or make him drop like stupid corrupt ox cultists.

[CanyptianFit]

Here is a crazy one.

For PVE, no change to skills.

For PVP, he blocks all enemy passives every round, and his own passives for the first round only. Thus any 2 round passive on his side will kick in on round 2 for one round only. Kinda like having a blue bat against him. Thus the only change would be that no passives are active round one. Even better would be if this was only when the prisoner gets first attack...no passives. If the prisoner team goes second, prisoner toon passives are active.

So if prisoner team goes first no other passive are active when his team attacks. His passive activate prior to the other teams first attack. So he will get the benefit of defensive passive during first round.
If prisoner team goes second, then any passives on prisoner team are live/working.

Not sure if this is possible, but would keep his value in campaign untouched, but slightly modify his skill in PVP.

This would prevent the tag team passive of the perfects freezing, killing on the first rounds without ever getting a move.

If we get talismans that block him, it takes away from his uniqueness/value, IMHO.

It's late, might be stretching it.

[Nicko]

I think the talismans sound pretty interesting. What happens when you put a blue bat in there though?

The prisoner by himself isn't a problem in my opinion. It's the way he can be combined with others that causes the issues. Changing him might not be the best fix. Maybe looking at some of those other characters would solve the problem better.

I don't have a prisoner by the way.

Agreed

It's what I said in another thread. Nerf him, remove him, make him subject to immunity, etc and the blue bat with the Siege passive is then the next "overpowered" character...except he's not hard to get

[Roquetas-5312]

With percentage chance to effect passives this brings up a couple of questions
Would he effect opponents prisoner ?
Would you take into account opponents toons that have no passive like CG and AGS ?

[Frost]

Agreed

It's what I said in another thread. Nerf him, remove him, make him subject to immunity, etc and the blue bat with the Siege passive is then the next "overpowered" character...except he's not hard to get

Would he really be? I think with the bug fix on multiple hits and freeze procs he'll be very balanced. Besides PDK and other cleanse toons counter him very good.

[R1ck]

I think Prisoner should be banned from PVP. Why?
1. All theories about making his passive not work with certain toons, only one toon at first round or whatever % for the following rounds, is changing the purpose of the Prisoner and will make a lot of people angry for not being able of using him as intended in first place in PVE.
2. About talismans, we all have put what we considere the best talismans for our toons, and now we have to change that because of one toon, no an option.
3. Whatever change devs decide will take sometime to be applied. And both options mentioned above will take a lot of time. I think devs should concentrate on what they offered long time ago, sacrifice or BNW.

[Nicko]

Would he really be? I think with the bug fix on multiple hits and freeze procs he'll be very balanced. Besides PDK and other cleanse toons counter him very good.

I don't see how Cleanse would help - I'm not talking about removing negative effects.

I'm saying Siege neuters passives similar to a Prisoner. Kills Troll shields etc. Nerf the Prisoner and all you're doing is giving a much more common character - the Angel of Pain - the ability to do what the Prisoner is doing now

[Arcturus]

2. About talismans, we all have put what we considere the best talismans for our toons, and now we have to change that because of one toon, no an option.


Well, since it sounds like new talismans have been planned for a while (before the PVP Beta?), and those may offer ways to counter the passive, it's probably just best to wait and see what will come of it and then decide if more needs to be done to the Prisoner (I'm guessing not). I don't think it's very reasonable to rule out new talisman sets because we already have the ones we want, that would make the game stagnant. Although I do understand the concern of creating a new set of talismans just to solve this problem, as it could be buggy, take a a long time, and possibly upset other balances. But if it's happening anyway, let's see what they do.


I don't see how Cleanse would help - I'm not talking about removing negative effects.

I'm saying Siege neuters passives similar to a Prisoner. Kills Troll shields etc. Nerf the Prisoner and all you're doing is giving a much more common character - the Angel of Pain - the ability to do what the Prisoner is doing now I think what they mean is that Cleanse is a counter-counter to Siege blocking immunity passives - that is, blue bat blocks your Hellhound's 1st turn immunity, and you wind up getting frozen, but PDK automatically cleanses a random ally. It's not a 1:1 counter, but I think there are more small counters like that that makes Siege not nearly as OP as Passive Aggression. Particularly because Siege doesn't block all passives, so it's only useful against a handful of toons (not everyone with a passive, like the Prisoner).

[Frost]

I don't see how Cleanse would help - I'm not talking about removing negative effects.

I'm saying Siege neuters passives similar to a Prisoner. Kills Troll shields etc. Nerf the Prisoner and all you're doing is giving a much more common character - the Angel of Pain - the ability to do what the Prisoner is doing now

Nicki you are wrong here. The way Siege and Passive Aggression work is way different.

Passive Aggression disables all passives. Siege reduce the duration of buffs by one per round.

Siege for example does not disables Cleanse, so evento ir your team is frozen in your turn at least one toon will bem cleansed so you can counter the enemy team. My winrate against blue bat and death dog going second is 90℅. I used to hate having a couple PDK, now I just love it.

As I said Siege has its counters, Passive Aggression no

[scott-5496]

I like the idea of talisman that would help counter the Prisoner - leave him as he is I think as less complicated and gives us something to aim for in getting the new talisman. I have a Prisoner but not in PVP yet so never really used him for the grind so I have never used him enough to know his value in a 'real' setting. His time will come I am sure. For now I would leave him and keep him a unique character. Work on talisman sets that can weaken his passive I think sounds best and easiest. This them means less moans from those who have him (I do have him as I said but not really bothered using him much as not full power on talisman yet) and some new talisman we all have to try to get to counter?

Great original post and nice to see you guys working with the community on this.

Cheers

[Roquetas-5312]

Nicki you are wrong here. The way Siege and Passive Aggression work is way different.

Passive Aggression disables all passives. Siege reduce the duration of buffs by one per round.

Siege for example does not disables Cleanse, so evento ir your team is frozen in your turn at least one toon will bem cleansed so you can counter the enemy team. My winrate against blue bat and death dog going second is 90℅. I used to hate having a couple PDK, now I just love it.

As I said Siege has its counters, Passive Aggression no

FFS frost nothing is like passive aggression that's the whole point of this thread which you inspired and you have taken this off topic.
I get what nicko is saying even if you don't

[Nicko]

I just have a sneaking suspicion replacing Prisoners with a blue bat/DM combo is not going to alleviate complaints of "He who goes first wins";)


But if PDK works for you that's cool. By the way Frost - your AoS is a beast!

[RCarter]

I get that PvP will be the way of the future for LotB. Totally understandable, as the endless grind for materials is not really sustainable. However, we will still have to grind the campaign for talismans, runes, and gold, and the LoL for shards. The Prisoner is a nice addition to some parties for those other aspects.

It's pretty obvious that the Prisoner was not designed with PvP in mind, and that's perfectly OK. So why the effort to fit a square peg in a round hole? If you (the Developers) don't think the Prisoner will work without major revisions, just pull it out of PvP altogether.

To me, about the ONLY thing he has going for him is his passive. Without it, he is a mediocre, single target attacker. Even with maxed shards and talismans. Having his passive only work on a percent check/first round/susceptible to immunity (don't get that one at all, Immunity comes off a passive, right?), takes the Prisoner right out of the niche role and puts him on the Isle of Lost Toons.

Ban the Prisoner from PvP to keep him as a viable option for the rest of the game. It's OK. The world won't end.

Besides, it's not like we can actually use any old toon for PvP anyways. It's not a level playing field to begin with. If it was, we would be having this discussion about all of the Corrupt Ox Cultists that are ruining the hell out of PvP for everybody!

P.S.- Sparton- love the idea of involving the community in discussions like this. Tapping into the group mind for something like this is a terrific approach. I hope you guys continue this!

[Kardas]

*not part of the PVP beta*

The one thing I'm worried about is with the introduction of Talismans that they'll move the goalposts of the problem. Instead of everyone wanting to run a Prisoner, it'll turn into everyone wanting to run that anti-Prisoner Talisman set, which still makes PVP overly centralized in that regard.

[Frost]

*not part of the PVP beta*

The one thing I'm worried about is with the introduction of Talismans that they'll move the goalposts of the problem. Instead of everyone wanting to run a Prisoner, it'll turn into everyone wanting to run that anti-Prisoner Talisman set, which still makes PVP overly centralized in that regard.

That depends on wich are they planning for talismans. If they are planning a immunity for all or cannot be frozen for all, they are going in the worng direction. If they plan on a reflect back debuffs, they might go in the right direction.

@Nicko

Thanks! I put a lot of effort on him, I think he's very good in a defense. His proc could be 50% instead of 40% though, and have all green slots instead of one blue.

[Sag7272]

That depends on wich are they planning for talismans. If they are planning a immunity for all or cannot be frozen for all, they are going in the worng direction. If they plan on a reflect back debuffs, they might go in the right direction.


Taking inspiration from actual passives some sets would make characters shine in some new way, a fully sharded warrior or assassin newborn of light with an immunity on passive would be a beast on any defence team but it's ridiculous to even try one now as with a prisoner as he's a handicap but for passive...
A hellhound style first turn immunity would be popular even just for self, put it on cleanser and you are good to go on 2nd turn prisoner or not, it's opening new perspectives of being competitive even without super rare toons and if not overpowered can be a great thing for less hardcore players or those less fortunate with the RNG without killing interest in rare toons like Mr #6...

[Ringe666-7406]

Just imagine how unuseful he would become in PvE with a one sealed passive or something...
In lightbrigner deactivating one troll can't even imagine how unuseful in LoL with only one or two passive sealed? Sound like he'll be collecting dust and become a false joy to get one like a green pyro...

Green Pyro is great char for pvp... I use him in at least 30% of battles, and he saved my ass so many times.

As for the prisoner, talisman set would be useless (even if you forget that you lose one other skill/effect for it) because (probably) you would have to activate it with a perfect shot... and if you don't go first, we're back on square one...

[Sag7272]

Green Pyro is great char for pvp... I use him in at least 30% of battles, and he saved my ass so many times.

As for the prisoner, talisman set would be useless (even if you forget that you lose one other skill/effect for it) because (probably) you would have to activate it with a perfect shot... and if you don't go first, we're back on square one...

Loll wasn't ment against your pyro was thinking at a false joy a while ago, in PvP he's surely useful 😂

But as I understood, again, they are ment as fake passives not to be activated so yes they would work against a prisoner... If everything work as I understood

[Ringe666-7406]

Loll wasn't ment against your pyro was thinking at a false joy a while ago, in PvP he's surely useful 😂

But as I understood, again, they are ment as fake passives not to be activated so yes they would work against a prisoner... If everything work as I understood

Yeah, my guess too is that ability would be granted at the beginning, like +15% HP, but if not, then it's all for nothing...

[Sag7272]

Yeah, my guess too is that ability would be granted at the beginning, like +15% HP, but if not, then it's all for nothing...

If it's in the options insted of a nerf it can't be otherwise..

The only way I know to get a shield on first non started turn otherwise is to use revenge passive and with luck a void shield is up at first hit 😊... But we're out of luck as it's a passive

[Kraznoff]

*not part of the PVP beta*

The one thing I'm worried about is with the introduction of Talismans that they'll move the goalposts of the problem. Instead of everyone wanting to run a Prisoner, it'll turn into everyone wanting to run that anti-Prisoner Talisman set, which still makes PVP overly centralized in that regard.

Exactly! One of the biggest problems the devs have with the prisoner is if you have him you will put him on your team, regardless of what other characters you have. Making talismans that counter him will just make it so everyone with a prisoner will still have him on their team and everyone else will have to ditch whatever talismans that have good synergy with their team to equip these new talismans just to counter the prisoner. We'll be stuck ditching a bunch of very hard earned 5* talismans to grind and level up a bunch of new talismans just because the prisoner is OP in PVP. That doesn't sound like something I'm willing to do.

[mikmar]

I'm not included in the PVP beta test, but I think that the best solution is to nerf him someway only if used in PVP, but in campaign mode he can remain as he is now, so he can be part of both worlds without problems.

[Ringe666-7406]

I'm not included in the PVP beta test, but I think that the best solution is to nerf him someway only if used in PVP, but in campaign mode he can remain as he is now, so he can be part of both worlds without problems.

Best possibility so far, somebody up there even explained it thoroughly... I also like 'ban him from arena' idea, but then nothing can counter AoF i.e. and he is already OP imo... Third best is to make first turn prefictable (i.e. lower rank attacks first, or defense attacks first) and then find some green team to take heavy damage for one and probably two turns ('cause if freeze, stun, etc)

[scott-5496]

I do just wonder if this is all about those who have him and those who do not? I have him but not used him and not in PVP yet so no ideas as to his importance but what I can see is that (as others pointed out) he is quite rare and he has not much else at all going for him other than the passive? So I can see why he works well in PVP and I can see how he works well in grind. If you mess with the passive it ruins both aspects of the game surely? So really it is why have this toon if you remove the only thing he is good for? Or am I missing something?

If there are special talismans or a revised passive on a different character that can help against a Prisoner why not do that as that means he stays as is for everyone. If the future of the game is PVP (not so sure that it is if new content comes out in the shape of new worlds or other new content) then Prisoner (being quite rare) should still be available as he is I think.....or if the consensus id to nerf him then he needs some other boost to what he does on other attacks or passives I think.

I am sure there are other characters that have the limelight in PVP but not much idea as not played it yet - so if Prisoner gets hit then does other strong PVP toons need to come next and if so which ones? Red troll, hellhound, red bat.......?

[Frost]

I do just wonder if this is all about those who have him and those who do not? I have him but not used him and not in PVP yet so no ideas as to his importance but what I can see is that (as others pointed out) he is quite rare and he has not much else at all going for him other than the passive? So I can see why he works well in PVP and I can see how he works well in grind. If you mess with the passive it ruins both aspects of the game surely? So really it is why have this toon if you remove the only thing he is good for? Or am I missing something?

If there are special talismans or a revised passive on a different character that can help against a Prisoner why not do that as that means he stays as is for everyone. If the future of the game is PVP (not so sure that it is if new content comes out in the shape of new worlds or other new content) then Prisoner (being quite rare) should still be available as he is I think.....or if the consensus id to nerf him then he needs some other boost to what he does on other attacks or passives I think.

I am sure there are other characters that have the limelight in PVP but not much idea as not played it yet - so if Prisoner gets hit then does other strong PVP toons need to come next and if so which ones? Red troll, hellhound, red bat.......?

All other toons that seen to be OP are not in fact. They all have means of countering, be it cleanses, buff removal, etc. Prisoner has NO counter. And he's not that rare, see a previous post I made: outta 10 players 8 have him.

[mikmar]

All right, but nobody want to make The Prisoner a useless char that will sit on the bench forever because the best power that he has will be removed.
He is a 5* char and he is a good char only for his passive capability.
So my opinion is to mantain his passive power in campaign mode and to change it in the Arena in a way that I don't know.
I don't like new talismans only to counter on him.
Another idea : make the Cop character that have the power to put the Prisoner in jail again :D

[Frost]

All right, but nobody want to make The Prisoner a useless char that will sit on the bench forever because the best power that he has will be removed.
He is a 5* char and he is a good char only for his passive capability.
So my opinion is to mantain his passive power in campaign mode and to change it in the Arena in a way that I don't know.
I don't like new talismans only to counter on him.
Another idea : make the Cop character that have the power to put the Prisoner in jail again :D

Nobody wants this. We just want to make it so he's not mandatory and don't break the game like he's doing now.

[mikmar]

Nobody wants this. We just want to make it so he's not mandatory and don't break the game like he's doing now.

Yes, we need a Cop for him I think.
If we don't want to introduce a new char that can stop him, we may think to give to an available char (Droids ?? Soldiers ??) a way to fight against him

[CanyptianFit]

Don't have a prisoner, I'm in PVP.

Thoughts on talisman solution.

1. Make this "special talisman" universal like blind/freeze.
- will neuter the prisoner, don't care what the requirements are, very bad idea. Setup 4 toon attack team with talismans and destroy.

2. Make frequency so that it is a one-off like meteor/comet and a 3 set. Maybe 1 time gift to players as they enter PVP for first time. Assume it is a 3 set, and blue with 1 arcane, 1 power, 1 sorcery. [I won't get us started on comet discussion ;) ] I would put the 3 set on mummy Eddie or green allied soldier, after first prisoner team hit, this character would have immunity, and hopefully alive, cleanse team and destroy. Still as a single 3 set, this would neuter prisoner. No matter the color, a 3 set would neuter the prisoner.

3. Make the frequency a one-off gift, and make it a 4 set. If the color of the 4 set Is green or blue, use approach above, and destroy. A 4 set of yellow or red, that might work? Purple not good idea. This again addresses the prisoner as a defender.

We've largely discussed him as a defender, but his value on offense is equally a challenge. Maybe more so. Having him on the offense probably guarantees a win given the lack of perfects possible on defense side.

I still believe the best adjustment is a tweak were his passive also affects him for the first round. Not much unlike Vision Eddies Fury move and the stun. Leaving his passive beyond the first round is still highly valuable and provides competitive advantage...keeping him 5* Ish. His "Cop" is another prisoner.

I'm with Nicko again, in that the community gravitates toward the character with the most advantage. The prisoner is a hard character to come by, and for all those that spend time/money to try and get him and do so, they should have his advantage. Too much nerfing and like Nicko asserts, we will all move to the next toon and the outrage will continue. The argument that we want to see many varieties of defenses at the top might not ever happen.

I, again yesterday, went second against a top 10 team with Prisoner/Perfect Hit Passive and won. Skin of my teeth, but I pulled it off. This just to prove that as the attacker it is possible to win, and any nerf should be subtle/slight. (Reduce Prisoner win rate when he goes first from 95% to like 70-80% or something?). Any significant adjustment neuters him. I don't have him, wish I had him, but I spend my time/effort other ways.

At the end of the day we need to keep him a 5*. Any talisman solution needs to be well thought out. Solution should address him on both attack and defense side, and be gentle. Not a easy answer.

PS. Sorry, mates, if I attack you, nothing personal. ;)

Thanks again Devs for the discussion. Hoping we get to the right solution/balance.

[Roquetas-5312]

Where are you getting the win rates from mine is like 15-20pct in defense so nerf him so I lose 100 pct as I don't have cg red bat warrior troll hellhound ad corrupt droid tail gunner Eddie ggs
I feel I should lose my 5 star character because other people don't have him so please please take him away

[konstifik]

I didn't have time to read the whole thread, so I'm sorry if this have already been suggested and discussed, but another way to balance The Prisoner would be to apply the passive block to his own team as well. So if you have him on your team, none of your passives will apply. This would not make him useless, specially not in the defensive team, and he would still be useful in PVE, but it would take away the OP combinations such as Prisoner+Red Troll.

[Nicko]

I didn't have time to read the whole thread, so I'm sorry if this have already been suggested and discussed, but another way to balance The Prisoner would be to apply the passive block to his own team as well. So if you have him on your team, none of your passives will apply. This would not make him useless, specially not in the defensive team, and he would still be useful in PVE, but it would take away the OP combinations such as Prisoner+Red Troll.

This has been suggested a couple times. I really like the way CanyptianFit framed it; affecting both teams first round only. Gives the opposing team equal ground in the first round and then maintains some of his specialness after by only affecting other team. Great idea

[Sag7272]

This has been suggested a couple times. I really like the way CanyptianFit framed it; affecting both teams first round only. Gives the opposing team equal ground in the first round and then maintains some of his specialness after by only affecting other team. Great idea

I also think it's an interesting middle ground to keep him powerful & useful while excluding some of the most deadly combo for one turn, giving defense time to prepare...

[slauki]

This has been suggested a couple times. I really like the way CanyptianFit framed it; affecting both teams first round only. Gives the opposing team equal ground in the first round and then maintains some of his specialness after by only affecting other team. Great idea

that could be a really interesting approach, since this would let him pretty strong and bring more balance in. i could live with that solution too.

but i think, the devs have already some talismans solution in mind, which they will implement when BNW comes out anyway. but some interesting talismans would give the game more depth, that's why i would give them a chance.

only thing i'm afraid of is that this will take very long, till this is finished. unfortunatly PVP seems to be frozen atm, till they figure out what to be done.

[konstifik]

This has been suggested a couple times. I really like the way CanyptianFit framed it; affecting both teams first round only. Gives the opposing team equal ground in the first round and then maintains some of his specialness after by only affecting other team. Great idea

That's a good way to do it. It makes sense to start with this change, and if it proves to be too little, they can make it so that it affects both teams for more (or all) rounds.

[BillLion]

That's a good way to do it. It makes sense to start with this change, and if it proves to be too little, they can make it so that it affects both teams for more (or all) rounds.

I like a spinoff idea of this: Leave Prisoner's passive alone but have it kick in on the 2nd round instead of immediately. Gives opponents a fighting chance to set something up and leaves his powerful ability in tact. This will also still leave him almost unchanged in PVE.

[calizario]

If it were easier to get the Prisioner, this post would not exist. That simple . All this starts with the ridiculous DropRate of JokeofSouls.
This situation of this particular character is comical to see and sad for those who face a team like that of PizzaFryday, Nicko, Demonchind .. even more if they start attacking .. I do not even bothered more, I even laugh.

Before launching the arena, I imagined something else of what it is today, imagining a room where players entered and faced 100% without AI (defense in the case). Each using what's best for each type of battle, not this system set up a kind of team for defense and simply facing players who can choose what they will use in battle. I know ... It's too weird for me.

To be honest, I do not even care about raking, I care about the coins I win, choosing my opponents (another thing I think is ridiculous in this arena, choosing an opponent).

I expect many improvements in the game a long time, improvements that I say is for players and not for developers ($$$)

[CanyptianFit]

Another potential solution.

The problem we are trying to address is not the prisoner by himself, it is the prisoner coupled with the perfect passive that makes him deadly. Him coupled with certain passives essentially negates any chance for a turn/hit.

How about an alternate solution were we leave the prisoner unaltered, but we alter the perfect passives and the accuracy passives so that they are disabled by any prisoner on either side.

Just like the prisoner has a note (does not work on bosses), those 2 passives could have a note (disabled/removed by ANY prisoner).

This addresses the core issue, leaves him untouched.

Do you void the passives skills altogether both rounds? (Accuracy and perfect are 2 round buffs)

Just remove first round?

Other passives that should be included beyond the 2 mentioned?

Include the Siege Passive as one that negates Perfects and Accuracy during first round?

Trying to think outside the box.

Cheers!

[RCarter]

I struggle with the idea of putting a toon in a line up that would have an adverse effect on my own team.

Having him shut down my own passives? I would rather find something else for that slot.

[Arcturus]

I like a spinoff idea of this: Leave Prisoner's passive alone but have it kick in on the 2nd round instead of immediately. Gives opponents a fighting chance to set something up and leaves his powerful ability in tact. This will also still leave him almost unchanged in PVE.
this is probably too much a nerf. Prisoner would be dead by the second round.

If it were easier to get the Prisioner, this post would not exist. That simple . All this starts with the ridiculous DropRate of JokeofSouls.
I think this is wrong - if everyone had the prisoner, everyone would be using him, and it would be very boring having to fight the same defense all the time.

Another potential solution.

The problem we are trying to address is not the prisoner by himself, it is the prisoner coupled with the perfect passive that makes him deadly. Him coupled with certain passives essentially negates any chance for a turn/hit.

How about an alternate solution were we leave the prisoner unaltered, but we alter the perfect passives and the accuracy passives so that they are disabled by any prisoner on either side.

Just like the prisoner has a note (does not work on bosses), those 2 passives could have a note (disabled/removed by ANY prisoner).

This addresses the core issue, leaves him untouched.
This is also a good idea - I agree that the problem isn't just with the Prisoner, it's the combination of him with DM & freeze/stunners (which also won't be as bad once the multi-hit proc issue gets fixed).

[Sag7272]

I like a spinoff idea of this: Leave Prisoner's passive alone but have it kick in on the 2nd round instead of immediately. Gives opponents a fighting chance to set something up and leaves his powerful ability in tact. This will also still leave him almost unchanged in PVE.

Almost unchanged for someone who don't use it, most passives are one round buff, would let him useless at the only thing he does...
On another hand since his only counter is self applying it to both teams first turn would give the same chance as if you have one giving time to set immunity/shield then act as intended on next turn...


Another potential solution.

How about an alternate solution were we leave the prisoner unaltered, but we alter the perfect passives and the accuracy passives so that they are disabled by any prisoner on either side.

Think it's overcomplicating things for nothing,
If there's no passive first round it gives chance to kill/counter any such combo, DM have something like 20k health in best case not 40... If you can't counter with a no passive first turn to use a shield or something problem isn't the DM or prisoner...


We'll all that taking into account the multiple hits nerf to come that will change perspective on that prisoner/DM by a good margin making Golden Sons way less scary...

[Nicko]

Another potential solution.

The problem we are trying to address is not the prisoner by himself, it is the prisoner coupled with the perfect passive that makes him deadly. Him coupled with certain passives essentially negates any chance for a turn/hit.

How about an alternate solution were we leave the prisoner unaltered, but we alter the perfect passives and the accuracy passives so that they are disabled by any prisoner on either side.

Just like the prisoner has a note (does not work on bosses), those 2 passives could have a note (disabled/removed by ANY prisoner).

This addresses the core issue, leaves him untouched.

Do you void the passives skills altogether both rounds? (Accuracy and perfect are 2 round buffs)

Just remove first round?

Other passives that should be included beyond the 2 mentioned?

Include the Siege Passive as one that negates Perfects and Accuracy during first round?

Trying to think outside the box.

Cheers!

Boy, you're full of great ideas! Neutering the first round of Perfect Hit and accuracy sounds like a really fair solution. It's really that combo, combined with the broken Talismans, that have people up in arms

[Nifelheim]

I was thinking along same lines. Leave prisoner alone. Instead modify axis bomber boys focus/increased accuracy passive to include overriding passive aggressive skill

Similar to when you apply blind to desert marauder, his perfect hit passive overrides it.

[slauki]

Boy, you're full of great ideas! Neutering the first round of Perfect Hit and accuracy sounds like a really fair solution. It's really that combo, combined with the broken Talismans, that have people up in arms

and troll shield, immunity, block, extra turn and revive :P

[satani]

well, what's next? This sounds like a discussion on whom to nerf next.
I have the prisoner, yet rarely use him. Yes, he is a good counter to all damage-blockers, revivers or the warrior troll, but his single attack and somewhat complicatet stat-scaling make him hard to equip. (mine runs a frozen set together with an invisibility bulwark set).
Talking about fearful encounters in pvp. I read somewhere here around, that warrior troll and corrupt general are a hard combo. (a friend of mine has 3 corrupt generals, have fun, when you meet him - when pvp is available to all)
Anoother long match combo could be any reviving team, like pharaoh eddie, pharaoh water ghost and corrupt rescuer. Add a golden son with thief talismans and you can have a very loooong match ahead.

Yet pharaoh eddies invularability is reduced to 2 rounds. As i remember, when i used him from troopers way back to beat underworld madness, it were 3 rounds. Just got him in my ~50.000 (feeled that way) sentinel soul and just checked that. (was he on the character tuning list? going to check now) Now i only used the pharaoh from a trooper when playing lightbringer madness, which is once every 4th day.

[konstifik]

well, what's next? This sounds like a discussion on whom to nerf next.
I have the prisoner, yet rarely use him. Yes, he is a good counter to all damage-blockers, revivers or the warrior troll, but his single attack and somewhat complicatet stat-scaling make him hard to equip. (mine runs a frozen set together with an invisibility bulwark set).
Talking about fearful encounters in pvp. I read somewhere here around, that warrior troll and corrupt general are a hard combo. (a friend of mine has 3 corrupt generals, have fun, when you meet him - when pvp is available to all)
Anoother long match combo could be any reviving team, like pharaoh eddie, pharaoh water ghost and corrupt rescuer. Add a golden son with thief talismans and you can have a very loooong match ahead.

Yet pharaoh eddies invularability is reduced to 2 rounds. As i remember, when i used him from troopers way back to beat underworld madness, it were 3 rounds. Just got him in my ~50.000 (feeled that way) sentinel soul and just checked that. (was he on the character tuning list? going to check now) Now i only used the pharaoh from a trooper when playing lightbringer madness, which is once every 4th day.

A three CG team should be fairly easy to beat if you have Hellhound or Artillery Dog and a team with CG and Warrior Troll should be fairly easy to beat if you have the Hellhound/Artillery Dog and the Prisoner/Angel of Pain/Death Dog. A team with The Prisoner and two CG, or The Prisoner, Warrior Troll and CG however, will be much harder.

This discussion is not because The Prisoner alone is hard to beat but because certain combinations of characters including The Prisoner (and equipped with certain talisman sets) may be next to impossible to beat. This is also partly because talisman effects process a lot more than they should.

[gmac]

A green bat with full shards is a good counter to the prisoner.

Use his power ability, that will give the bat immunity and invincibility for 3 rounds.

So you get to attack 2 round, refill your power points and do it again.

Guess what? His passive wont work, so it will not block, and unless someone removes beneficial effects he is pretty much immortal.

You can take the whole team with the bat alone, I've done it a number of times.

Not pretty, but very effective.

Cheers

Leave the prisoner Alone! (No, I dont have one)

[Arcturus]

A green bat with full shards is a good counter to the prisoner.
Use his power ability, that will give the bat immunity and invincibility for 3 rounds.
So you get to attack 2 round, refill your power points and do it again.
Guess what? His passive wont work, so it will not block, and unless someone removes beneficial effects he is pretty much immortal.
You can take the whole team with the bat alone, I've done it a number of times.
Not pretty, but very effective.


1) I've done the same thing with CR Eddie's Ghost. Not pretty, but effective (and for 4 turns), except for when I got frozen despite having immunity.

2) There's no problem with any prisoner team if you go first. I've found very few defense teams I can't cripple or destroy in one round (and the ones that do stand up usually need toons that aren't part of this broken mechanic). The problem is if there is a prisoner and DM (perfect hit passive) along with either a golden son (using the multi-hit proc bug) or corrupt general and/or some AoE eddie with freeze/stun talismans. Your whole team can get frozen every turn until you're dead. So no chance to use your bat.

[gmac]

Yes, I totally agree,

But that is not a problem with the prisoner having no counter. (Nice to hear that CR Eddie does the job too, dont have one).

And nerfing the prisoner will not solve the multiple hit/frezze/stun thing, thats what needs solving.

By the way, the prisoner is transferring silence despite the bats immunity. For me thats the only thing that needs fixing regarding the prisoner...

...meanwhile I made a second full built green bat until its fixed :-)

Against prisoners teams I usually go with both green bats, and two allies to cleanse, just need to use shriek once and its game over.

[Arcturus]

Yes, I totally agree,
But that is not a problem with the prisoner having no counter. (Nice to hear that CR Eddie does the job too, dont have one).
And nerfing the prisoner will not solve the multiple hit/frezze/stun thing, thats what needs solving.
By the way, the prisoner is transferring silence despite the bats immunity. For me thats the only thing that needs fixing regarding the prisoner...
...meanwhile I made a second full built green bat until its fixed :-)
Against prisoners teams I usually go with both green bats, and two allies to cleanse, just need to use shriek once and its game over.
Agree that multi hit thing needs to get fixed first. But I think the problem isn't just that there's no counter (he's supposed to be rare and very powerful), it's how it makes certain teams (nearly) unbeatable. Happy to agree to disagree here.

I'm pretty sure the Prisoner's Silence is intended to override immunity and not be cleansable (I think there are one or two other skills that have that attribute - they all have a silver icon instead of red debuff icon). So whether it's fair or not, it is intended to be that way.

And I'll say this - a team with 2 green bats would be beastly, at least to my team which relies on the AoF's extra turn passive. In it's bugged form, it would be really hard to get it to trigger if there are two blockers.

[CanyptianFit]

Gmac, your bats are deadly. Learned that the hard way.

Nice job.

😝

[CanyptianFit]

You've got a lot of good feedback here. What are your current thoughts?

Do you have an approach identified yet?

[Sparton_LOTB]

You've got a lot of good feedback here. What are your current thoughts?

Do you have an approach identified yet?

We've taken many of the ideas you guys have posted and added it to our internal list for evaluating the tech cost/expected impact, but we don't have a decision levied yet.

As other people have noted, we are interested in adding new kinds of talismans with Brave New World, and so we may just take into account answers for the Prisoner with that, but we're not sure if we'll go with just that or do something else in conjunction yet.

[gmac]

Great news!

Talisman solution is probably the best, leave him alone, plenty of balancing and fixing to do before nerfing the Prisoner.

And how about some un-nerfing? Would really enjoy a Mage comeback! They are really weak compared to the others. That would make people happy...

Best thing is that changes are being discussed in advance. Congratulations!

Cheers

[Sag7272]

Great news!

Talisman solution is probably the best, leave him alone, plenty of balancing and fixing to do before nerfing the Prisoner.

X2
Or even anyone else,
Many will yell but probably the best way...
I'm afraid that every "suspects" will end up nerfed real bad when other fixes can probably address most irritating things at a lesser cost...

[Sparton_LOTB]

I'm afraid that every "suspects" will end up nerfed real bad when other fixes can probably address most irritating things at a lesser cost...

Suspects are indeed the characters that may have nerfs, but part of the reason we want to open the discussion to the playerbase is to see if there's something we're missing that helps make the character not as much of a problem as we thought (and as such not nerfing something which is demonstrated to not need nerfing).

On that subject, though, we now have the other suspect discussion threads up for the other characters we want your feedback on, so please do have a look and comment on your thoughts.

[Sag7272]

Suspects are indeed the characters that may have nerfs, but part of the reason we want to open the discussion to the playerbase is to see if there's something we're missing that helps make the character not as much of a problem as we thought (and as such not nerfing something which is demonstrated to not need nerfing).

On that subject, though, we now have the other suspect discussion threads up for the other characters we want your feedback on, so please do have a look and comment on your thoughts.

Tanks you for that, happy to see players getting implicated it can only end up well if everyone work together to balance PvP it will be fun for everyone & at the same time keep community in understanding of why things happend to characters 😊

[konstifik]

Another way to change The Prisoners passive is to make it cancel passives that give buffs for 1-2 rounds but not the other passives (such as Siege, Block etc). This way, there will be a way to counter Prisoner+Warrior Troll, Prisoner+Hellhound and, partly, Prisoner+DM and you can also use toons with Block against Prisoner teams. It will be similar to Siege of course, but with a full cancellation to 2 round passives and no reduction of active buffs.

[Nicko]

So midway through the week it's interesting that the number two player as of this moment - Bradata - has no Prisoner.

Proof that there are LOTS of characters that can make this game easier, but missing any one of them doesn't mean you can't rise high.

Well done Bradata!

[Sag7272]

So midway through the week it's interesting that the number two player as of this moment - Bradata - has no Prisoner.

Proof that there are LOTS of characters that can make this game easier, but missing any one of them doesn't mean you can't rise high.

Well done Bradata!

Was saying myself the same thing, it just prove that with time/efforts there's always a way, you don't have to fight prisoners teams themselves to win.. you need more points that's the most important
I'll second Niko,
Well done Bradata, nice to see you fight for top spots 😊

[Bradata]

So midway through the week it's interesting that the number two player as of this moment - Bradata - has no Prisoner.

Proof that there are LOTS of characters that can make this game easier, but missing any one of them doesn't mean you can't rise high.

Well done Bradata!
Thanks! I have been one of the few against crippling The Prisoner or any of the other characters mentioned here and as you noted I have no Prisoner or The Red Bath or the magus general and still manage... for now.
I mentioned before in different thread that devs better fix the broken PVP SYSTEM and then our toons. Got 27 skill shards in my GR and now looks like he will be one of the handicaps soon :(

[Kraznoff]

So midway through the week it's interesting that the number two player as of this moment - Bradata - has no Prisoner.

Proof that there are LOTS of characters that can make this game easier, but missing any one of them doesn't mean you can't rise high.

Well done Bradata!

The problem is if you have the prisoner you will always put him on your team. If you don't it's because you're either bored of winning easily or you don't understand how powerful he is. For PVP to be enjoyable long term the characters must be sufficiently balanced to allow for variety on teams. Once broken mechanics like multiple hit effects and excessive damage are fixed there shouldn't be any other characters that you will automatically put on your team. Plus, the best characters are good because of their passive abilities. Those passive abilities allow for team synergies and interesting strategies. Having a character that disables all passives on my team takes the fun out of playing. If you really want to compete you have to build a team assuming no passive effects work. Imagine if everyone had a prisoner, and given enough time most long term players will. Most teams you will fight will then have a prisoner, and passive abilities will be completely meaningless. Maybe we should also have a character with a passive that disables all talisman effects 100% of the time, or a passive that disables all power moves 100% of the time. I understand everyone with a prisoner wants the talisman solution, but it's not fair that I will have to grind endlessly to get and power up a new set of talismans which I will be forced to use because the prisoner is OP in PVP. Not to mention the delays a new set of talismans will put on all of the content we've been promised almost since launch. The solution is quick and easy; the prisoner should have a chance of blocking passives on enemies for 1 turn each round.

[Silentknight]

So midway through the week it's interesting that the number two player as of this moment - Bradata - has no Prisoner.

Proof that there are LOTS of characters that can make this game easier, but missing any one of them doesn't mean you can't rise high.

Well done Bradata!
Not sure if Bradata attacks prisoner teams but definitely revenges em. Nice job!

[The Educated fool]

I continue to think that nerfing the Prisoner is completely unnecessary, but I guess I will comment on this thread in spite of myself. lol Comments that every character should be as useful as every other in the Arena remain, to me, quite franky, ridiculous--especially as relates to a 5-star, rare, boss draw like the Prisoner--but, since they still seem to be quite prevalent, I would hope that devs at least wait until the dust settles after the addition of the new talismans before they run amok with the nerf bat.

I have already made so many arguments against nerfing the Prisoner in the other thread that I fear any other comments I might make here would be redundant, I will say though, also, that I agree that nerfs to the Prisoner's passive (inevitable as I believe them to be) should definitely apply only when he is being used in the Arena, and not in the campaign... he's never been considered overpowered in the campaign before, and he isn't now. Nor is he in the Arena... but I digress.

Spare the nerf rod, don't spoil the game! :cool:

[Chaosego888]

I continue to think that nerfing the Prisoner is completely unnecessary, but I guess I will comment on this thread in spite of myself. lol Comments that every character should be as useful as every other in the Arena remain, to me, quite franky, ridiculous--especially as relates to a 5-star, rare, boss draw like the Prisoner--but, since they still seem to be quite prevalent, I would hope that devs at least wait until the dust settles after the addition of the new talismans before they run amok with the nerf bat.

I have already made so many arguments against nerfing the Prisoner in the other thread that I fear any other comments I might make here would be redundant, I will say though, also, that I agree that nerfs to the Prisoner's passive (inevitable as I believe them to be) should definitely apply only when he is being used in the Arena, and not in the campaign... he's never been considered overpowered in the campaign before, and he isn't now. Nor is he in the Arena... but I digress.

Spare the nerf rod, don't spoil the game! :cool: I completely agree. The Prisoners stun ability annoys me more than his passive. It is not The Prisoner that is a problem, It's the Prisoner/Desert Marauder/Golden Son trio that is the problem. Leave the Prisoner alone and fix the talismans... and why the hell do the freeze talismans work so much better than Paralysis?

[CanyptianFit]

Chaos, Freeze don't require perfect hit, Paralysis do.

[Silentknight]

Chaos, Freeze don't require perfect hit, Paralysis do.

Freeze talismans don't say perfect hit required in description but do say perfect hit in battle & definitely do require perfect hit

[Chaosego888]

Chaos, Freeze don't require perfect hit, Paralysis do.
I got off topic a bit at the end of that. I have been noticing for awhile that when I land perfect attacks with both Freezing and Paralysis sets equipped, The Freeze triggers 10 times more than the Paralysis, no exaggeration. I notice also that Freeze occurs way more often with a Corrupt General or Golden Son than with an Allied Soldier or Corrupt Rescuer.

[Schadenfreud-0217]

Nerfing AoF was ok, but doing nothing with Prisoner? His basic attack stuns too much way too often (2 turns at a 45% chance), passive is still broken as hell and right now, with talismans not working properly teams that have the Prisoner are even more OP.

[Kraznoff]

You guys wanted a talisman fix for the OP prisoner, congrats because it looks like that's what they'll do. Instead of working on new content that's been promised almost from the beginning the devs will spend months developing a new set of talismans, and after a few more months of figuring out why those talismans caused game breaking bugs we'll be good to go. Looking forward to a balanced and worldwide PVP sometime in 2018 or 2019.

[Arcturus]

You guys wanted a talisman fix for the OP prisoner, congrats because it looks like that's what they'll do. Instead of working on new content that's been promised almost from the beginning the devs will spend months developing a new set of talismans, and after a few more months of figuring out why those talismans caused game breaking bugs we'll be good to go. Looking forward to a balanced and worldwide PVP sometime in 2018 or 2019.

sure, except they said those talismans were already being developed, so it won't really change anything. They just won't nerf the Prisoner until the finish that.

[Fister]

If only his passive would be his powermove. I doubt we would have this thread if it was so.

He would have plenty ways to be countered. But what should be his passive then?

When encountering him in underworld he would be more easy to deal with without his passive. To still make it a little hard to meet him that first time he could be getting to cast his powermove (his current passive) as the player enter the boss wave.

Cheers

[konstifik]

If only his passive would be his powermove. I doubt we would have this thread if it was so.

He would have plenty ways to be countered. But what should be his passive then?

When encountering him in underworld he would be more easy to deal with without his passive. To still make it a little hard to meet him that first time he could be getting to cast his powermove (his current passive) as the player enter the boss wave.

Cheers

His passive could be the same as now, but only work for one round, and then the power move is to re-activate it for an appropriate number of rounds.

[CanyptianFit]

If his passive becomes his power move, he is no longer 5* IMHO. He should maintain 5* status and capability. I don't have him, but we don't want to neuter him either. I like that a character has his passive. Cool to have that in the game.

Makes it frustrating for those that don't have him, but prior to the last update we only had a small issue based on pairing him with other offensive passives. I didn't mind going against Prisoners in general, prior to the update. Now some characters/toons that were effective counters to him have reduced effectiveness, he is now more OP then ever.

Trying to balance it though so he's not 6*, but also not 4*.

[Fister]

If his passive becomes his power move, he is no longer 5* IMHO. He should maintain 5* status and capability. I don't have him, but we don't want to neuter him either. I like that a character has his passive. Cool to have that in the game.

Makes it frustrating for those that don't have him, but prior to the last update we only had a small issue based on pairing him with other offensive passives. I didn't mind going against Prisoners in general, prior to the update. Now some characters/toons that were effective counters to him have reduced effectiveness, he is now more OP then ever.

Trying to balance it though so he's not 6*, but also not 4*.

Couldn't help smiling when you stated that he should keep his passive cuz its cool to have in the game. He removes passives from enemies - so just half cool? 😎

Just joking. 😂

I actually just gave it a thought how things would be different if his passive became his powermove. That I have no idea what should be his passive instead doesn't mean that I think he should not have any. Cuz I think he should.

But I hate that he has almost become mandatory in PvP. Dont have him, but rest assure that I will use himmel IF I ever get him and ofc acces to PvP.

Cheers

[konstifik]

Just encountered the situation where The Prisoner use his power move which seals himself for two turns, and then the next turn transfer the seal with his normal attack even though my character had immunity and invicibility. This really should be fixed.

[ToTameAGame]

Just encountered the situation where The Prisoner use his power move which seals himself for two turns, and then the next turn transfer the seal with his normal attack even though my character had immunity and invicibility. This really should be fixed.

You talk about the Green Bat - his only nemesis - I had exactly the same problem and was mentioning this a while ago. But that's fine. The Prisoner will soon get a permanent heal shield plus invincibility for 10 rounds at the start of a battle.

[Frost]

Who had the brilliant idea that he transfer his 2 turn seal debuf to a immunity/invincible aos on normal attack?!?!?!? Wtf blizzard?!?! Are you fucking kidding me?!?!?

[ToTameAGame]

Who had the brilliant idea that he transfer his 2 turn seal debuf to a immunity/invincible aos on normal attack?!?!?!? Wtf blizzard?!?! Are you fucking kidding me?!?!?

Psssst! Don't talk that loud about the Prisoner - that is blasphemy - God forgives but the Prisoner doesn't. I heard rumors that the devs want to rename him into Chuck Norris.

[Aristo4]

Are you guys still discussing about Prisoner? PvPrisoner? this guy?

[Silentknight]

Are you guys still discussing about Prisoner? PvPrisoner? this guy?

LOL,90% of posts. Kinda thot that was part of the game... to get the elite characters

[Caretaker]

Allready said, but it transfers his own seal to green bat, and CR under its immunity. Does he overrides immunity?

Edit: and yes he does!

And like I said, prisoners passive should affect both teams. As should sige passive. For those who bring them shuld live with them :evil:

[abbadon]

I am not lucky enough to have a troll angel of fear hellhound guneer brave new word something something etc. And based on daily play since August I don't expect any soon. The prisoner is the only reason I stand a chance. I WISH he was MORE powerful. Without him PVP is pointless, worthless, and just copying cheap exploits and bugs. I.e no fun

He does what hes supposed to. Fix those that do what they are not. And give everyone a chance at non-dupe troops

[mjmxiii]

Just saw this thread lol... I had posted this in a different thread as an alternative to changing anything about the Prisoner


I would like to see a "Boss" feature added that allows characters like CG, AG, WM and Prisoner to be team leader in campaign AND PvP. This would also be a way to neutralize the Prisoner without having to NerF him as his passive won't work against "Boss" chars.


If not having Ed on the team isn't an option, why not give those characters the Boss status back and make it so his Passive Agression is neutralized by Bosses as it is in the campaign?