April 2017 Tuning Discussion - PRELIMINARY

[mjmxiii]

Wow... I'm really hoping that reading through all of the great posts in this thread gives you folks at NF some food for thought on the upcoming NerF and the direction of future character balancing as well. Your player base is crying out to you in the most professional manner possible to put an end to the disappointing choices you have been making to basically ruin much loved and hated characters like the Prisoner.

I propose that instead of NerFing all these great characters, you create true counters for them. Perhaps more characters that wear Passive Aggression as it is or more characters that can disable it with some new passive for instance. Having a few more wear this passive would also help eliminate the need to ruin the Siege passive.

We all know there are better ways to resolve these issues. It's obvious that you should know this as well. The changes you have decided to make and possibly go through with will continue to negatively affect the playability of your game if you don't take some time to listen to what all these good people are trying to tell you.

We can all agree that adapting and overcoming is one of the key skills we all have to learn in all that we do at some point. Being lucky is only half the battle and should always go hand in hand with being good too. Being fooled on the other hand, is something that has surely happened to most of us, but being fooled repeatedly is something that will not continue to be acceptable. You will ruin the game if you continue to devalue our initial investments.

The main point here is that no one really wants to see you taking the easy way out, even if you feel that changing some coding and having to deal with some complaints was a hard choice to make... it should however, raise some serious red flags on the development and programming sides when your most dedicated players, that you are so fortunate to have supporting this game, voice their opinions in such a manner.

I really do think you guys should reevaluate some of your decisions and take some time to reflect on what the loyal people who have supported this project have to say before you go live with an update that has such a drastic change.

My hat's off to the community, I really do hope they're listening!

[Sparton_LOTB]

I haven't been replying to specific comments in this thread for a bit, but I'd like to chime in on the reactions to the character tuning in broad strokes:


Reception to changes to the Prisoner is fairly divisive (unsurprisingly), but it does appear that the general sentiment is that the proposed change is going too far. We are reviewing alternatives posted here and may change the adjustment when the tuning update goes live. That said, no character in PVP should feel like they're almost always someone you should use for every team (PVP attack or PVP defense), and no character should only have itself as a consistent counter, and that is clearly where he is right now.
We do not want to go about situationally banning characters from certain game modes. This obviously comes with the drawback that characters occasionally necessitate changes to not be overpowered in particular game modes, but that is the direction we are taking. That said, we aren't going to round the edges off every popular character until usage rates are flat... we merely don't want certain characters to have substantially more usage than others, or for certain high-rarity characters to basically have no usage.
We are not currently considering allowing the removal of skill shards from characters. Our stance continues to be that these are permanent, long term investments to specific characters, especially due to the nature of how they are earned, their increased availability as the game matures, and how they are assigned into skills. As the game evolves, some characters will become more or less valuable for a variety of factors, and direct character tuning is only one of them.
We are reviewing the work it would take to change logic for PVP point calculations relative to other initiatives we have. That said, points gained when you win and lose are the values they are after accounting for sand recharge time, expected attack win percentage, expected defense win percentage, etc, so reducing losses in certain situations means we'd need to also make changes to how many points you win, or what the requirements are for divisions (otherwise, everyone would blow well past 2100 and then the VP requirements for divisions below Warlord will become largely meaningless). We do not expect that everyone will get rewards for the top divisions, and that many less-competitive players will be fighting just for daily challenges/iron coins, which continues to hold true.
We are still looking at making adjustments to PVP matchmaking. That said, activity from the player base shows that a greater percentage of players are playing PVP, and more are competing for the higher divisions. Recent changes to matchmaking appear to have removed the most extreme cases where players were attacked very few times and able to rank highly, and we believe we can make further adjustments to further reduce discrepancies that are still reported.

[Jofer16]

Cool lots of good news! The fact you're re-considering Prisoner based on feedback is an encouraging sign, even if it's inevitable.

[Patrice-1201]

I haven't been replying to specific comments in this thread for a bit, but I'd like to chime in on the reactions to the character tuning in broad strokes:


Reception to changes to the Prisoner is fairly divisive (unsurprisingly), but it does appear that the general sentiment is that the proposed change is going too far. We are reviewing alternatives posted here and may change the adjustment when the tuning update goes live. That said, no character in PVP should feel like they're almost always someone you should use for every team (PVP attack or PVP defense), and no character should only have itself as a consistent counter, and that is clearly where he is right now.
We do not want to go about situationally banning characters from certain game modes. This obviously comes with the drawback that characters occasionally necessitate changes to not be overpowered in particular game modes, but that is the direction we are taking. That said, we aren't going to round the edges off every popular character until usage rates are flat... we merely don't want certain characters to have substantially more usage than others, or for certain high-rarity characters to basically have no usage.
We are not currently considering allowing the removal of skill shards from characters. Our stance continues to be that these are permanent, long term investments to specific characters, especially due to the nature of how they are earned, their increased availability as the game matures, and how they are assigned into skills. As the game evolves, some characters will become more or less valuable for a variety of factors, and direct character tuning is only one of them.
We are reviewing the work it would take to change logic for PVP point calculations relative to other initiatives we have. That said, points gained when you win and lose are the values they are after accounting for sand recharge time, expected attack win percentage, expected defense win percentage, etc, so reducing losses in certain situations means we'd need to also make changes to how many points you win, or what the requirements are for divisions (otherwise, everyone would blow well past 2100 and then the VP requirements for divisions below Warlord will become largely meaningless). We do not expect that everyone will get rewards for the top divisions, and that many less-competitive players will be fighting just for daily challenges/iron coins, which continues to hold true.
We are still looking at making adjustments to PVP matchmaking. That said, activity from the player base shows that a greater percentage of players are playing PVP, and more are competing for the higher divisions. Recent changes to matchmaking appear to have removed the most extreme cases where players were attacked very few times and able to rank highly, and we believe we can make further adjustments to further reduce discrepancies that are still reported.



Thanks Sparton, it feels good to be heard... and even better to be considered 👍🏻

[Tritium]

Thank you Sparton for your thoughtful response! I'm sure the majority of us here on the forums are glad that you are listening to us and forming your decisions based on our feedback.

While I have no doubt that some players will continue to find fault in the actions of the devs, it's quite easy to see how communication has greatly increased in the past few months. This is a welcome adjustment! :)

[Sag7272]

I can only respect your well though answer Sparton, it's not easy to be in your position right now I can imagine...
Thank you for your reconsideration on some parts of those nerfs, something obviously need to be done we all know & accept it at this point, it's a matter of amplitude I think.. Good to see you are listening & consider "adjustments" :)

[gmac]

Hi Sparton,

1 - Could you elaborate further on possible changes to the prisoner?

2 - Most of us are against Angel of Fear second nerf as well, please consider that too. (And please bring back Angel of Strife, he is gone)

3 - Skill Shards - I still think removable is the best option, but if not would you let us buy more then one a week with Iron Coins? Maybe less trooper points too?

4 -Any news on the self attack fix?

Yes, great that you guys interact with us, can't praise that enough. Hope you guys nail this prisoner adjustment and make everybody ok with it.

Cheers
Gmac

[Silentknight]

Wow! Miss a day,miss alot!!! Very Nice...'nuf said!!!

[Sag7272]

Wow! Miss a day,miss alot!!! Very Nice...'nuf said!!!
You arrived in time for the best part :)

[Silentknight]

You arrived in time for the best part :)

Waiting impatiently...

[Sparton_LOTB]

1 - Could you elaborate further on possible changes to the prisoner?

In general, some kind of solution that involves the passive applying debuffs is likely the direction we will go, but we may try different ways of applying it to make the effect more impactful (considering it will at least have counters when it's a debuff). We're looking at our options and internally testing some possibilities to see what we can do with our current deadlines.


2 - Most of us are against Angel of Fear second nerf as well, please consider that too. (And please bring back Angel of Strife, he is gone)

The change to Angel of Fear is not a substantial change; as I noted earlier in the thread (http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?5153-April-2017-Tuning-Discussion-PRELIMINARY&p=35892&viewfull=1#post35892), he's going from effectively tied for best maxed out Attack in the game to being higher Attack than every character that isn't basically tied for highest Attack in the game (from approx 1750 to approx 1500 at 5 star level 100). We really are just trying to give other high-Attack-focused characters a bit more of an edge without power creeping everyone else above him.


3 - Skill Shards - I still think removable is the best option, but if not would you let us buy more then one a week with Iron Coins? Maybe less trooper points too?

We don't want to adjust the price or purchase restrictions for Skill Shards as they exist right now, but we do plan to have more options for being able to get them (such as features like Sacrifice sometimes giving them, or more events like the PVP one we recently ran).


4 -Any news on the self attack fix?

I haven't been saying too much with this because we're not confident we have a 100% fix for this yet. The issue currently has a fix applied for it and our QA is dedicating time to ensuring the fix functions as intended, but it's still uncommonly seen by us on the development team even when we're trying to make it happen.


Cool lots of good news! The fact you're re-considering Prisoner based on feedback is an encouraging sign, even if it's inevitable.


Thanks Sparton, it feels good to be heard... and even better to be considered 👍🏻


Thank you Sparton for your thoughtful response! I'm sure the majority of us here on the forums are glad that you are listening to us and forming your decisions based on our feedback.

While I have no doubt that some players will continue to find fault in the actions of the devs, it's quite easy to see how communication has greatly increased in the past few months. This is a welcome adjustment! :)


I can only respect your well though answer Sparton, it's not easy to be in your position right now I can imagine...
Thank you for your reconsideration on some parts of those nerfs, something obviously need to be done we all know & accept it at this point, it's a matter of amplitude I think.. Good to see you are listening & consider "adjustments" :)


Yes, great that you guys interact with us, can't praise that enough. Hope you guys nail this prisoner adjustment and make everybody ok with it.


Wow! Miss a day,miss alot!!! Very Nice...'nuf said!!!

Thanks for your patience and understanding as well! I am also happy that we can have this dialog to help advance the game in the best manner possible, even if yes, we may not agree all the time.

[Silentknight]

Thanks for your patience and understanding as well! I am also happy that we can have this dialog to help advance the game in the best manner possible, even if yes, we may not agree all the time.

Thank you!

[HomemLivre]

In general, some kind of solution that involves the passive applying debuffs is likely the direction we will go, but we may try different ways of applying it to make the effect more impactful (considering it will at least have counters when it's a debuff). We're looking at our options and internally testing some possibilities to see what we can do with our current deadlines.

What about change his basic attack if he will not be like you devs proposed? I see too many players complaining about his deserved nerf on the passive and just one or two talking about his attack.
He can simply transfer negative effects with 100% chance to a even invisible characters!!! WTH! Stun for two turns!!! WTH² Not saying that he help fuells the fury bar quickly and tank really nice.

All this complain about his passive (like you devs proposed) just looks like a "balance" that some players wants to remain the same.

[gmac]

Hi Sparton

If you could, just couple more questions.

1 - What happens when we cleanse the debuff on the Prisoner new passive? Do they start working again? Or are they gone? Let´s say I go with a Warrior Troll, how that affects him if the debuff triggers?

2 - Are yon considering applying it to every toon first round? Because this is the key issue. If so I assume people that have him will probably go the same say on offense, and that will restrain a lot of possibilities on defense (will need a cleanse toon in there).

3 - What should we do to with all those Iron Coins?

(I missed you Angel of Fear post, good that it is not a major nerf)

Cheers
Gmac

[CanyptianFit]

So I'm one of the ones without a prisoner.

When I go up against AoP, guess what I don't bring in a troll, a HH, or other passive toon, it requires(d) me to develop a broad list of toons that could win even if going second. I have a lot of diversity in my offensive team.

With the proposed AoP nerf, that diversity will diminish DRAMATICALLY. Today I probably rotate about 15 different toons on offense, depending on the opposing team.

Pretty much assume I'm going to have a troll if there are heavy hitters, and a HH/AD if there are high CC's toons in play.

I've said this before during my longer rant in Decembers adjustment (that was the tuning adjustment that made me go from a bystander on the forums to being more vocal) that we as a community will gravitate toward the toons /combos that give us the best chance to win. Freezefest, tauntfest, DM Gunner team from Hell...ultimate diversity isn't going to happen especially if you have different toons with different differentiated capabilities.

So you either try to level the playing field and take away the aura of the top tier toons, and take my desire from the game, OR you maintain the 5 and 4 star differentiation and those best combo's will, to probably a great extent, get replicated.

Natural selection.

My 2 cents, and can't state how appreciative I am that NF is engaging in this dialogue before taking action.

So adding my concern over the AoP nerf, officially I guess, amongst other things.

Cheers!

[Sparton_LOTB]

What about change his basic attack if he will not be like you devs proposed? I see too many players complaining about his deserved nerf on the passive and just one or two talking about his attack.
He can simply transfer negative effects with 100% chance to a even invisible characters!!! WTH! Stun for two turns!!! WTH² Not saying that he help fuells the fury bar quickly and tank really nice.

There is a bug with the fact that his transferring effect of his skill will transfer even onto characters which are vanished/immune, but that is a general issue we need to fix.

Other than that, we do not have any specific problems with the rest of his design. He has dangerous crowd control capabilities that you need to account for with your own crowd control effects or with cleansing, and his adjustments to his passive will reinforce that.


All this complain about his passive (like you devs proposed) just looks like a "balance" that some players wants to remain the same.

Obviously some players want it to stay the same, but some players also don't. Ultimately, after months of mulling it over and looking at what options we can execute on, we've found that there's no appropriate new character or effect we can make to counter a passive without doing more characters that counter passives (which invalidate so many other characters and makes the Prisoner less special), or make a character that specifically counters this one passive (which is incredibly narrow). We feel that adjusting his functionality so that there are other options and ways to counter his passive-blocking capabilities is the best way moving forward.


1 - What happens when we cleanse the debuff on the Prisoner new passive? Do they start working again? Or are they gone? Let´s say I go with a Warrior Troll, how that affects him if the debuff triggers?

Cleansing the debuff will make it as though that character has it's passive again. The passive won't make a start of combat effect occur (like the Warrior Troll shields), but it could help later (the Angel of Fear's First Blood would allow your first kill to give your team extra turns), or help immediately if it's a passive that does something continuously (such as Angel of Strife's Block).


2 - Are yon considering applying it to every toon first round? Because this is the key issue. If so I assume people that have him will probably go the same say on offense, and that will restrain a lot of possibilities on defense (will need a cleanse toon in there).

That is an option we're considering (it's becomes stopped by start-of-battle immunity, and some other passives become viable with Immunity or cleansing).


3 - What should we do to with all those Iron Coins?

Yeah, we don't really have much of a "release valve" purchase for people who've been doing a lot of battles each week, but we're hoping to periodically rotate in other limited time items (such as other, new talismans) and eventually fragments of Eternity Souls.

[Sparton_LOTB]

When I go up against AoP, guess what I don't bring in a troll, a HH, or other passive toon, it requires(d) me to develop a broad list of toons that could win even if going second. I have a lot of diversity in my offensive team.

With the proposed AoP nerf, that diversity will diminish DRAMATICALLY. Today I probably rotate about 15 different toons on offense, depending on the opposing team.

Pretty much assume I'm going to have a troll if there are heavy hitters, and a HH/AD if there are high CC's toons in play.

In all honesty, that is one of my biggest concerns, too. I used Angel of Pain before it was cool (and before Siege was adjusted to work at start of combat), but I noticed the exact opposite problem as you; as certain meta picks became more common (such as Warrior Troll), I found more often that I was picking him than not. It's been brought up before, but nerfing the Prisoner and not changing the Angel of Pain would change Angel of Pain from being the poor man's Prisoner to being the next utility character you bring on nearly every team.

If you're consistently 1 rounding enemies as you climb in PVP, he'll obviously have less versatility, but I think most people underestimate the value of guaranteed Accuracy Down (if taunted, he makes it so that taunter won't be taunting much next turn) and the value of shutting down 1 turn buffs (goodbye Void Shields and it's ilk).

[HomemLivre]

Thanks for you replay, Sparton. That was very clear. Hope you guys find a way to let the game balanced with this fix on the Prisoner, we need it.
Lots of players seek TRUE balance and we deserve this since the beta.

Cumps.

[Kraznoff]

I haven't been replying to specific comments in this thread for a bit, but I'd like to chime in on the reactions to the character tuning in broad strokes:


Reception to changes to the Prisoner is fairly divisive (unsurprisingly), but it does appear that the general sentiment is that the proposed change is going too far. We are reviewing alternatives posted here and may change the adjustment when the tuning update goes live. That said, no character in PVP should feel like they're almost always someone you should use for every team (PVP attack or PVP defense), and no character should only have itself as a consistent counter, and that is clearly where he is right now.
We do not want to go about situationally banning characters from certain game modes. This obviously comes with the drawback that characters occasionally necessitate changes to not be overpowered in particular game modes, but that is the direction we are taking. That said, we aren't going to round the edges off every popular character until usage rates are flat... we merely don't want certain characters to have substantially more usage than others, or for certain high-rarity characters to basically have no usage.
We are not currently considering allowing the removal of skill shards from characters. Our stance continues to be that these are permanent, long term investments to specific characters, especially due to the nature of how they are earned, their increased availability as the game matures, and how they are assigned into skills. As the game evolves, some characters will become more or less valuable for a variety of factors, and direct character tuning is only one of them.
We are reviewing the work it would take to change logic for PVP point calculations relative to other initiatives we have. That said, points gained when you win and lose are the values they are after accounting for sand recharge time, expected attack win percentage, expected defense win percentage, etc, so reducing losses in certain situations means we'd need to also make changes to how many points you win, or what the requirements are for divisions (otherwise, everyone would blow well past 2100 and then the VP requirements for divisions below Warlord will become largely meaningless). We do not expect that everyone will get rewards for the top divisions, and that many less-competitive players will be fighting just for daily challenges/iron coins, which continues to hold true.
We are still looking at making adjustments to PVP matchmaking. That said, activity from the player base shows that a greater percentage of players are playing PVP, and more are competing for the higher divisions. Recent changes to matchmaking appear to have removed the most extreme cases where players were attacked very few times and able to rank highly, and we believe we can make further adjustments to further reduce discrepancies that are still reported.


The originally proposed Prisoner nerf DOES NOT go too far. Currently the Prisoner has the most powerful passive in the game, he has one of the most powerful basic attacks with the highest consistent damage I've seen AND a good chance at stunning an enemy for TWO turns, he has high enough defense/health that he's hard to kill depending on talismans, and his power move easily disables healers/revivers. There is literally not a single weak point to the Prisoner and that is why if you have him you will always use him. Even if his passive gets reduced to a chance to disable passives and can be blocked he will still be the best or one of the best characters. If his passive was completely removed he will have some of the highest damage, he will be able to stun for 2 turns, and he can disable healers/revivers. You've stated multiple times that your goal is to balance the characters enough so that there is no character you will always use if you have him. The original proposed nerf might satisfy that goal, but anything less and he will still be used 100% of the time.

Btw I've done a lot of complaining on these forums and I want to say I've seen steady improvement and am very happy with the direction this game has taken. Thanks.

[Liebhild]

Accuracy Down (if taunted, he makes it so that taunter won't be taunting much next turn) and the value of shutting down 1 turn buffs (goodbye Void Shields and it's ilk).

Then there is a bug also, a SSD, blinded and Accuracy Down, very often is taunting my whole team...

[tex-0775]

Thanks for the update/info

Correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't the problem in the arena, chars with passives? So instead of constantly nerfing/crappyfying chars, wouldn't it be better to make the arena a big "passive remover"? That way noone will enter the arena with an advantage and buffs will only kick in when an attack/tallis effect triggers. This way chars will also still be usefull in campaign.

Btw, i'm also for the idea of returning skillshards from those chars that are nerfed, ss's are not easy to come by, and this would be the decent thing to do.

tex

[surfingwithdje]

Hi Sparton, very happy to see that the discussion is possible with you :)
As i said prisoner is strong only because of some passives are overpowered, if you use a team without passives he isn't a problem...
I think it's a good way to make adjustement for the siege passive, actually it brokes too many things in the game (shields, immunity, talismants, etc...).
That is the only one passive who obliged you to have a prisoner in your team if you have one...

[Liebhild]

A funny addition to the ranking list would be a new tab, where you could see how much money/ironite a player invested.

[Caretaker]

I haven't been replying to specific comments in this thread for a bit, but I'd like to chime in on the reactions to the character tuning in broad strokes:


Reception to changes to the Prisoner is fairly divisive (unsurprisingly), but it does appear that the general sentiment is that the proposed change is going too far. We are reviewing alternatives posted here and may change the adjustment when the tuning update goes live. That said, no character in PVP should feel like they're almost always someone you should use for every team (PVP attack or PVP defense), and no character should only have itself as a consistent counter, and that is clearly where he is right now.
We do not want to go about situationally banning characters from certain game modes. This obviously comes with the drawback that characters occasionally necessitate changes to not be overpowered in particular game modes, but that is the direction we are taking. That said, we aren't going to round the edges off every popular character until usage rates are flat... we merely don't want certain characters to have substantially more usage than others, or for certain high-rarity characters to basically have no usage.


Basicly, what you've 'that said' said, compiled with your previous statements, you DO NOT WANT diversity. You want 'rare' toones to be the same top teams. And with that you are inforcing limits to peoples creativity and workarrounds if a player was not rewarded with 'premium' toons. So basicly you are making the winners. I throw hate on that standing of yours. Pure unfairness. Whatever you say without real arguments means nothing but that. You can say, 'people wanted it' and I will say 'ufcorse, those who spoke they have it good as is. What about all the others?'

Edit: and we wouldn't be discussing this if people did not ask for it.





The originally proposed Prisoner nerf DOES NOT go too far. Currently the Prisoner has the most powerful passive in the game, he has one of the most powerful basic attacks with the highest consistent damage I've seen AND a good chance at stunning an enemy for TWO turns, he has high enough defense/health that he's hard to kill depending on talismans, and his power move easily disables healers/revivers. There is literally not a single weak point to the Prisoner and that is why if you have him you will always use him. Even if his passive gets reduced to a chance to disable passives and can be blocked he will still be the best or one of the best characters. If his passive was completely removed he will have some of the highest damage, he will be able to stun for 2 turns, and he can disable healers/revivers. You've stated multiple times that your goal is to balance the characters enough so that there is no character you will always use if you have him. The original proposed nerf might satisfy that goal, but anything less and he will still be used 100% of the time.

Btw I've done a lot of complaining on these forums and I want to say I've seen steady improvement and am very happy with the direction this game has taken. Thanks.

What this man said.

@devs, do not stir it up now that you've finally done something good. And nerf the SSD. Poore mummy whose power smash sure did not stun with 30% declared so fix that up while at it.

In the revenge tab add a counter how many is made or still left and make them shop-able. My 2 c what needs to be done now.

[Kamuz24z]

Prisoner is going to get nerf or castrate well dealing with current prisoner is not problem for many of us but I want to see different teams with the new update there are so many toons to choose but we can't use many of them because of prisoner and void shields also the point system need a fix the more we play the more attacks we get I understand that to get to the top you really need to spend ironites and a lot of time but maybe just spand the good rewards to more players I'll try the arena with the new update I really want to see different teams new talismans.

[Lord Schmeb]

I'm late to the party, but count me in as an anti-nerf of the Prisoner. I don't have one, I don't want one, and I hate using the two that end up as troopers (Sag and Alex 😀). I used to loathe fighting him in the arena, but not anymore; it isn't hard to counter/beat him with a little outside-the-box thinking. No need for RNG luck either, as I haven't had much (although my last pull DID get me a Red Bat... Nice timing!).

Nerfing sucks, period.

Off topic, sorta, if GRE falls under the knife, I may just die of disappointment. (Although I don't use him much -- again, he is easily countered by folks who THINK instead of just piss and moan.)

[scott-5496]

I haven't been replying to specific comments in this thread for a bit, but I'd like to chime in on the reactions to the character tuning in broad strokes:


Reception to changes to the Prisoner is fairly divisive (unsurprisingly), but it does appear that the general sentiment is that the proposed change is going too far. We are reviewing alternatives posted here and may change the adjustment when the tuning update goes live. That said, no character in PVP should feel like they're almost always someone you should use for every team (PVP attack or PVP defense), and no character should only have itself as a consistent counter, and that is clearly where he is right now.
We do not want to go about situationally banning characters from certain game modes. This obviously comes with the drawback that characters occasionally necessitate changes to not be overpowered in particular game modes, but that is the direction we are taking. That said, we aren't going to round the edges off every popular character until usage rates are flat... we merely don't want certain characters to have substantially more usage than others, or for certain high-rarity characters to basically have no usage.
We are not currently considering allowing the removal of skill shards from characters. Our stance continues to be that these are permanent, long term investments to specific characters, especially due to the nature of how they are earned, their increased availability as the game matures, and how they are assigned into skills. As the game evolves, some characters will become more or less valuable for a variety of factors, and direct character tuning is only one of them.
We are reviewing the work it would take to change logic for PVP point calculations relative to other initiatives we have. That said, points gained when you win and lose are the values they are after accounting for sand recharge time, expected attack win percentage, expected defense win percentage, etc, so reducing losses in certain situations means we'd need to also make changes to how many points you win, or what the requirements are for divisions (otherwise, everyone would blow well past 2100 and then the VP requirements for divisions below Warlord will become largely meaningless). We do not expect that everyone will get rewards for the top divisions, and that many less-competitive players will be fighting just for daily challenges/iron coins, which continues to hold true.
We are still looking at making adjustments to PVP matchmaking. That said, activity from the player base shows that a greater percentage of players are playing PVP, and more are competing for the higher divisions. Recent changes to matchmaking appear to have removed the most extreme cases where players were attacked very few times and able to rank highly, and we believe we can make further adjustments to further reduce discrepancies that are still reported.


This would be a step in the right direction and I am pleased that the devs are listening. Nice one NF team and looking forward to my Prisoner having his testicles intact after the update...poor fella was gonna be singing soprano...maybe that was it make him the LOTB 'Air Raid Siren'!

[Sag7272]

I'm late to the party, but count me in as an anti-nerf of the Prisoner. I don't have one, I don't want one, and I hate using the two that end up as troopers (Sag and Alex 😀). I used to loathe fighting him in the arena, but not anymore; it isn't hard to counter/beat him with a little outside-the-box thinking. No need for RNG luck either, as I haven't had much (although my last pull DID get me a Red Bat... Nice timing!).
Nerfing sucks, period.
Off topic, sorta, if GRE falls under the knife, I may just die of disappointment. (Although I don't use him much -- again, he is easily countered by folks who THINK instead of just piss and moan.)

Loll... No worries, he's mostly there to show support t'll nerf after I was planning something else..

[Nicko]

Basicly, what you've 'that said' said, compiled with your previous statements, you DO NOT WANT diversity. You want 'rare' toones to be the same top teams. And with that you are inforcing limits to peoples creativity and workarrounds if a player was not rewarded with 'premium' toons. So basicly you are making the winners. I throw hate on that standing of yours. Pure unfairness. Whatever you say without real arguments means nothing but that. You can say, 'people wanted it' and I will say 'ufcorse, those who spoke they have it good as is. What about all the others?'

Edit: and we wouldn't be discussing this if people did not ask for it.


Caretaker - I have to say I'm not seeing the same thing from Sparton's comments. I'm reading

1) He doesn't want monotonous repetition in every team we face (ex Mummy, Blue Bat, SSD)

2) We SHOULD see more rare toons - they're rare because they're 5* - and currently we don't. Take Assassin CotD for example. Supposedly a great toon - and we never see him in PvP. I'm glad he's getting a buff. I'd rather see this than nerforama, and I think many feel the same way.

So I don't read this as "we're making it so you need 5* toons". I'm reading it as "now you can actually USE some of these 5* toons that were previously worthless."

Big difference ;)

[Patrice-1201]

Caretaker - I have to say I'm not seeing the same thing from Sparton's comments. I'm reading

1) He doesn't want monotonous repetition in every team we face (ex Mummy, Blue Bat, SSD)

2) We SHOULD see more rare toons - they're rare because they're 5* - and currently we don't. Take Assassin CotD for example. Supposedly a great toon - and we never see him in PvP. I'm glad he's getting a buff. I'd rather see this than nerforama, and I think many feel the same way.

So I don't read this as "we're making it so you need 5* toons". I'm reading it as "now you can actually USE some of these 5* toons that were previously worthless."

Big difference ;)

Yes fully agree with Nicko, what's the point of jumping of join when a soul spits out a 5* but we cannot use him ;-) This will give us satisfaction that our hard earned or luck earned 5* are worth something ;-)

[Mizrael]

Caretaker - I have to say I'm not seeing the same thing from Sparton's comments. I'm reading.

Yeah, he obviously misunderstood it. but i have to admit that i understood it the same way the first time i've read it (all those word twists are hard to understand for us foreigners).
But it does look like all those nerfs are taking the game in that "flat" direction.
And SSD or "the lady in yellow"(her power move is like 3 characters in one!) went untouched, so guess what's gonna appear in 90% of the teams.

On the other hand removable skill shards don't even get considered, where in my view that would open up the diversity and people could try different toons without the worry that they won't be that effectively or that they will get nerfed one day.i don't get this philosophy at all...

[Silentknight]

2) We SHOULD see more rare toons - they're rare because they're 5* - and currently we don't. Take Assassin CotD for example. Supposedly a great toon - and we never see him in PvP. I'm glad he's getting a buff. I'd rather see this than nerforama, and I think many feel the same way.
Great toon!!! He's next to shard! Troopers Assassin & Warrior helped lots in PvE

[CanyptianFit]

Agree that it's best to buff existing non used characters, versus nerf.

I love what is being done with the harpy's. I've recently 5* one and am waiting to get the other.

This is the right approach to getting diversity.

😎

[HomemLivre]

I agree with Caretaker in some terms, Im really trying to understand where you guys found this "castration" adjective.
Its clear that some of you guys want the game as it is, with a super powerfull toon that gets advantage besides all other toons and thats the point that I disagree with Caretaker. The devs want a balanced game and made this patch for it, but some players want to change the devs mind...
Please guys, stop all this bs talk about "castration", other premium toons got a even worst nerf and you said nothing...

[Nicko]

I agree with Caretaker in some terms, Im really trying to understand where you guys found this "castration" adjective.
Its clear that some of you guys want the game as it is, with a super powerfull toon that gets advantage besides all other toons and thats the point that I disagree with Caretaker. The devs want a balanced game and made this patch for it, but some players want to change the devs mind...
Please guys, stop all this bs talk about "castration", other premium toons got a even worst nerf and you said nothing...

If you want every piece equal play checkers ;)

And I think your interpretation is extreme. I said previously I think the Prisoner could be nerfed - he does give too much of an advantage. But I think the nerf was extreme. Why pull a 5* if he doesn't give a significant advantage over a 3*? What's the point?

I don't want a game where one toon gives such an advantage it's frustrating if you don't have that one toon. But at this point I think the Prisoner the only one that fits that bill. Are there other strong toons that are challenging to face? Yes. But if they were that OP you'd see them in every defense. Almost anyone who had a Prisoner used him every time. He's that good. And every one else wanted him (OK - Aristo didn't ;))

GRE? SSD? You see a lot of them. But not on every team.

I do think the Prisoner was castrated. I think a more gentle nerf would have been possible and from comments many agree. Maybe I'll be proved wrong - maybe I won't be. So while I respect your opinion and your right to disagree (discussion is why forums exist) - Im not understanding your need to tell those of us who think differently than you to stop expressing our opinion.

[HomemLivre]

If you want every piece equal play checkers ;)

And I think your interpretation is extreme. I said previously I think the Prisoner could be nerfed - he does give too much of an advantage. But I think the nerf was extreme. Why pull a 5* if he doesn't give a significant advantage over a 3*? What's the point?

I don't want a game where one toon gives such an advantage it's frustrating if you don't have that one toon. But at this point I think the Prisoner the only one that fits that bill. Are there other strong toons that are challenging to face? Yes. But if they were that OP you'd see them in every defense. Almost anyone who had a Prisoner used him every time. He's that good. And every one else wanted him (OK - Aristo didn't ;))

GRE? SSD? You see a lot of them. But not on every team.

I do think the Prisoner was castrated. I think a more gentle nerf would have been possible and from comments many agree. Maybe I'll be proved wrong - maybe I won't be. So while I respect your opinion and your right to disagree (discussion is why forums exist) - Im not understanding your need to tell those of us who think differently than you to stop expressing our opinion.

I do not told to stop express your opinion, just to stop the usage of this adjective "castration" to a deserved nerf, I dont know who started this and really dont care about it, the problem is that sound like "a word that will make devs roll back in their decision about the prisoner", its so anoying to see guys that contribute to the game using so lowered words...
Well, at least you guys get what you want, they will not do as they wanted to do previously couse of some players.
Im hoping that whatever the changes devs decides to do makes the PvP a better place with some diversity.
And as I said before, if you guys not complained about other premium toons got nerfed hard, why do you care now? Something is not smelling good in here.

Edit: And why do you think that this nerf was extreme?

[mjmxiii]

I guess we might be a bit extreme in calling it a castration... it's more like a vasectomy since it is reversable!

[gmac]

I guess we might be a bit extreme in calling it a castration... it's more like a vasectomy since it is reversable!

LoL

Another Prisoner discussion... haha

Well, certainly nobody but canyptianfit ranted about AoP nerf, and that is a HUGE nerf.

But I'm ok with it, killing almost every buff first round is too much.

As is killing every passive first round with no counter.

So I'm ok with both nerfs.

Having said that, I did not understand that immunity (talismans or HH/Art Dog passive) would block the new Prisoner debuff first round. And that is a brilliant solution (Tritium suggested it I think).

And if that is the case, then YES, following rounds I think the new debuff should apply to everybody if immunity not there. This will save the prisoner for PvE (and btw AoP will be dead for that), and he will still be a lot of value, can block AoP and AoF passives, stun 2 round basic attack and silence with power move. How is that not a 5 toon?

I hope this is the solution devs go for.

Would that be ok Nicko and Prisoner owners?

Cheers
Gmac

[HomemLivre]

LoL

Another Prisoner discussion... haha

Well, certainly nobody but canyptianfit ranted about AoP nerf, and that is a HUGE nerf.

But I'm ok with it, killing almost every buff first round is too much.

As is killing every passive first round with no counter.

So I'm ok with both nerfs.

Having said that, I did not understand that immunity (talismans or HH/Art Dog passive) would block the new Prisoner debuff first round. And that is a brilliant solution (Tritium suggested it I think).

And if that is the case, then YES, following rounds I think the new debuff should apply to everybody if immunity not there. This will save the prisoner for PvE (and btw AoP will be dead for that), and he will still be a lot of value, can block AoP and AoF passives, stun 2 round basic attack and silence with power move. How is that not a 5 toon?

I hope this is the solution devs go for.

Would that be ok Nicko and Prisoner owners?

Cheers
Gmac

Round of applause!

CG in the past and AoP now are both extreme nerfs that change lots of things and like Gmac said, AoP is dead on PvE and no one complain about it...
"can block AoP and AoF passives, stun 2 round basic attack and silence with power move. How is that not a 5 toon?" - Thats why I dont understand this adjective "castration" and the complain only about the Prisoner.

Just wonder what devs will do with the other chars changes (like AoP). All the changes was based on the Prisoners imo and the way that I saw the possibilities, so if the prisoner will be changed again, the rest of the nerfs will need to be revised to.

But thats ok, lets see what devs will do and hope for the best.

[mjmxiii]

Hmmm that is odd... I have an AoP fully maxed up and you don't see me complaining about him getting clipped... I don't like seeing any chars nerfed without removable skill shards but those complaints are proving to be futile and Death Dog is not going to have Siege anyway... why are those who have the Prisoner so bummed out? Like Schmeb said, "don't have him, don't want him!"

...I prefer hunting the fugitive as is, makes it that much sweeter when he falls...

[Nicko]

I'm not quite sure why everyone says AoP is dead. Shortening Endure - Shields - even immunity - will happen after the first round. Yes - the first round is important - but most matches go beyond that.

The Prisoner however will be countered easily with a Red Pyro or Green Droid every single round. Start with a Hellhound or immunity Talismans and he's simply not a threat.

There's a whole thread discussing the Prisoner - and solutions - the developers can access that easily - so no need to start another here.

We all adapt. I look forward to using some new toons. This kind of got derailed when I asked why HomemLivre was so upset about people expressing their opinion that they thought the Prisoner nerf was harsh - that he was castrated.

I still think he was - and many do - but so be it! The game will go on - we'll all be forced to start thinking differently - and that's a good thing. Some of us just weren't ready to think THAT differently ;)

[Nicko]

And if that is the case, then YES, following rounds I think the new debuff should apply to everybody if immunity not there. This will save the prisoner for PvE (and btw AoP will be dead for that), and he will still be a lot of value, can block AoP and AoF passives, stun 2 round basic attack and silence with power move. How is that not a 5 toon?

I hope this is the solution devs go for.

Would that be ok Nicko and Prisoner owners?

Cheers
Gmac

Considering he'll be so readily countered - I think your proposal of affecting four toons instead of two would be a more fair solution. Toons like Viking (assuming Loot is fixed ;)) can steal buffs and may open a bit of a door for his debuffs to take effect.

[Sag7272]

Considering he'll be so readily countered - I think your proposal of affecting four toons instead of two would be a more fair solution.
.... Think I suggested just that at the beginning of the thread & nobody noticed lol, being a buff make it counterable easily nobody gonna use him if he randomly block mummy's & SSD "passives" while an AoP pass uncountered..
Worse any key toon under immunity (Troll) can go right away without caring for one minute about him...
Either some let go frustrations or don't understand that if he's countered by everyone everytime he's straight up worthless, his dmg are out of subject, I'll take an AoF before him with that nerf if I need that kind of damages with CC at least I'll have a turn & won't rely on RNG for having some use of the passive...
With 4 opponents affected he'd keep same use but still counterable WTF is wrong with that, immunity is as manageable there as against an SSD or a CG, those Droid & Pyros have been built for something no?

He definitely deserve to be nerfed in some ways it's inevitable, but not to be destroyed either, he wasn't counterable, now he will be... That's it it should be that simple..

[gmac]

Considering he'll be so readily countered - I think your proposal of affecting four toons instead of two would be a more fair solution. Toons like Viking (assuming Loot is fixed ;)) can steal buffs and may open a bit of a door for his debuffs to take effect.

I'm glad we agree on that:)

(Devs, maybe a settlement!!!)

Yes, I think it's a fair solution and both AoP and Prisoner will still be strong assets on offense.

On defense they are gone probably, but I'm glad, vast majority of defenses have either Prisoner, DD or AoP.

And I wanted to say AoP is gone only from PvE, if siege doesn't trigger first round we´ll put some other toon in there, probably with shield. And the Prisoner I guess you'll be able to use same way on PvE, but against HH/Art Dog.

Cheers

[Silentknight]

If you want every piece equal play checkers

Lol,checkers! 'King Me!' or is it 'Crown Me!'...Hilarious! @ work,missin all this...grrrrr!

[Caretaker]

I have not missread a thing. It is gloves on saying 'I won't change it' and 'I choose the toones that are usefull in arena', gloves off. Real arguments please, as I've sad I am a reasonable man.

Proposed 'nerf' on the prisoner is good 'wishfull thinking' he's getting a nerf, good for the game and they should make it as they have written it. With even lover rate of 30% like that mummy power smash stuns haha :cool:

So it does not block passives. 50% block of passive per creature means it will harm 3/4 if not all toones every turn (unless rng decides to hate you once in a while) and I'm sure they will make him target key toones (as now he is stuck on ass on attacker team) that you are mentioning would bother you to have passives, so your concerns @Nicko et al. that it will be countered by hellhound are wrong.
No toones will be left immune, unless by talis or skill as they are now. Blue bat and dd will be blocked every turn. Troll passive will be down too and non harmfull shields. One may hope it leaves one toone allone.

So what are the concerns of the prisoner owners? That rng will hate you? No, it will not.

[HomemLivre]

Lol,checkers! 'King Me!' or is it 'Crown Me!'...Hilarious! @ work,missin all this...grrrrr!

It is really funny couse Im searching but I didnt find yet who want to make all pieces equal hahahahah

Maybe balance has been mistaken for equity, but thats ok to haha

[Sag7272]

Have to call you wrong on that part...


So your concerns @Nicko et al. that it will be countered by hellhound are wrong.
No toones will be left immune, unless by talis or skill as they are now
Beginning of thread I asked this very question...


2-Since it's now a buff, passive immunity would prevent it or not?
It means a HH right? ^^
The answer was this...


Immunity would stop the Passive Block negative status effect.

I have not missread a thing. It is gloves on saying 'I won't change it' and 'I choose the toones that are usefull in arena', gloves off. Real arguments please, as I've sad I am a reasonable man

I'm resonable too but against killing toons.. he deserves a nerf but with all talismans + future ones & the new "balancing" his last hold of not being buff based will be gone.. he is now counterable & even by any HH or artillery dog or any tallisman for all that matters.. What's the point of going further, it was the problem since day 1...

[Sparton_LOTB]

Beginning of thread I asked this very question...

[Sag: Since it's now a buff, passive immunity would prevent it or not?]

It means a HH right? ^^
The answer was this...

[Sparton: Immunity would stop the Passive Block negative status effect.]

Actually, to further clarify, it seems I might have been mistaken with the priorities of conflicting effects from passives that should trigger at the same time. The intent is that Immunity talismans would work fine, but a character's passive (such as Hellhound's Repeal) does not take precedent over the Prisoner's Passive Aggression debuffs, so Hellhound is not an answer at the beginning of combat (but may help later in combat).

[mjmxiii]

This is going to be an interesting update...how is that timeframe looking there Sparton? One thing is certain, we are all eager to see what you guys come up with!

Btw, seeing some really good teams in PvP that don't have a Prisoner, SSD, AoF, AoP, GR or any of the other so-called "OP" toons. You all make it real tough to get 350 Iron coins for that skill shard at reset!

[Sag7272]

Actually, to further clarify, it seems I might have been mistaken with the priorities of conflicting effects from passives that should trigger at the same time. The intent is that Immunity talismans would work fine, but a character's passive (such as Hellhound's Repeal) does not take precedent over the Prisoner's Passive Aggression debuffs, so Hellhound is not an answer at the beginning of combat (but may help later in combat).
Tanks! Way was written let though otherwise... Lost in my translations I guess, tanks for clarifying, at least we'll all talk about same things :)

[gmac]

Actually, to further clarify, it seems I might have been mistaken with the priorities of conflicting effects from passives that should trigger at the same time. The intent is that Immunity talismans would work fine, but a character's passive (such as Hellhound's Repeal) does not take precedent over the Prisoner's Passive Aggression debuffs, so Hellhound is not an answer at the beginning of combat (but may help later in combat).

If that is the case I take back all I said, It should never affect all toons. Caretaker is right, 25% will be better. This kills all passives first round and we would still have much of the same problems as now.

It would be much better if immunity countered it, and if immunity not on then it's instantly on the enemy toon

Sparton, have you guys settled on how it will work?

Cheers
Gmac

[Caretaker]

I so hate when I'm right about the wrong things :rolleyes: so please go with that slim nerf and all happy. Nothing changes but a slim hope it won't target key toone at least once. So I didn't get all the owners panic, you will still storm through lists with a good backup.

In general @sag I am myself agains any nerf, ever since blue allied, over cg etc.. I proposed other ways with arena modifiers but nerfing was the way chosen. So now this has to be done. And I stil wote for SSD overrated taunt proc nerf and a fix on aof passive.

And I want to say I was very pleased when gimp was not doing imposible thing any more and am looking forward to some toones being pumped up for a change, no matter if it's 2* wolf or a skull or a 3* harpy!

[Sparton_LOTB]

This is going to be an interesting update...how is that timeframe looking there Sparton? One thing is certain, we are all eager to see what you guys come up with!

Timeline is still mid-April. We don't have anything more specific than that right now.


Tanks! Way was written let though otherwise... Lost in my translations I guess, tanks for clarifying, at least we'll all talk about same things :)

Yeah, I though it would work as I originally implied as well. I'll make sure we clarify that in the final patch notes when the update goes live.


If that is the case I take back all I said, It should never affect all toons. Caretaker is right, 25% will be better. This kills all passives first round and we would still have much of the same problems as now.

Passive Aggression still only affects character passives, so it just means you'll need to rely on talisman set effects more when you have an enemy Prisoner involved (Immunity Talismans if there's a character passive you want, Shell for more survivability, Invisibility to try and avoid death, etc). There's also more talismans we want to drip feed out in the future, and then the (now massive) backlog of new talismans that'll arrive with Brave New World.


Sparton, have you guys settled on how it will work?

We're still trying out some alternatives and see how they work in mock scenarios we expect to see in PVP, in addition to hammering edge cases to eliminate bugs around the adjusted functionality.

[Silentknight]

It is really funny couse Im searching but I didnt find yet who want to make all pieces equal hahahahah

Maybe balance has been mistaken for equity, but thats ok to haha
You will never find equality or balance with RNG!

[HomemLivre]

You will never find equality or balance with RNG!

I think diferently, its possible to find balance when all characters act as designed in a scenario when none of then are broken.

[gmac]

Passive Aggression still only affects character passives, so it just means you'll need to rely on talisman set effects more when you have an enemy Prisoner involved (Immunity Talismans if there's a character passive you want, Shell for more survivability, Invisibility to try and avoid death, etc). There's also more talismans we want to drip feed out in the future, and then the (now massive) backlog of new talismans that'll arrive with Brave New World.


Hi Sparton

The problem is not on defense, is on offense.

If it affects all toons and passives first round Prisoner teams will go same on offense as they are going right now. And that is the real problem. People that have him will still have huge advantage and will rotate with less toons on offense, will not deal with troll, accuracy up etc, nothing will change for them.

Prisoner owners were complaining it should affect everybody exactly because they thought immunity prevented it first round.

This is a huge mistake if you decide to go this way.

On a different matter, could you give us more info on the new talismans?

Cheers
Gmac

[Silentknight]

I think diferently, its possible to find balance when all characters act as designed in a scenario when none of then are broken.

So improve AI & bugs,got it

[Kaz_LOTB]

Hi Sparton

The problem is not on defense, is on offense.

If it affects all toons and passives first round Prisoner teams will go same on offense as they are going right now. And that is the real problem. People that have him will still have huge advantage and will rotate with less toons on offense, will not deal with troll, accuracy up etc, nothing will change for them.

Prisoner owners were complaining it should affect everybody exactly because they thought immunity prevented it first round.

This is a huge mistake if you decide to go this way.

On a different matter, could you give us more info on the new talismans?

Cheers
Gmac

Just to clarify, Immunity does prevent it. This includes Immunity from Talismans and Skills. However, the reason the Hellhound may not affect it on the first turn is because his passive is the thing granting the immunity buff and if the Prisoner disables his passive, he will not grant the immunity buff to everyone.

The disable passive effect is blocked by Immunity in every case where it is not directly tied to a passive that has been disabled (i.e. The corrupt sentinel droid or warrior pyro soldier can cast Immunity on their team second round and the disable passive effect will be blocked by it, you can equip the Hellhound with Immunity Talismans so that his passive does not get blocked on the first turn and he therefore grants Immunity to his team, etc.)

Hope that clears things up.

-Kaz

[slauki]

You will never find equality or balance with RNG!

i fully agree, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to reach an optimum of fairness and equality, however that looks like IMO.


Hi Sparton

The problem is not on defense, is on offense.

If it affects all toons and passives first round Prisoner teams will go same on offense as they are going right now. And that is the real problem. People that have him will still have huge advantage and will rotate with less toons on offense, will not deal with troll, accuracy up etc, nothing will change for them.

Prisoner owners were complaining it should affect everybody exactly because they thought immunity prevented it first round.

This is a huge mistake if you decide to go this way.

On a different matter, could you give us more info on the new talismans?

Cheers
Gmac

damn i got the nerf wrong too, i thought hellhound would counter prisoner in the first round. what if we put immunity talismans on the hellhound? then his passive could be active and any other passive too.
this could be a counter, or did i get that wrong?

anyway many people doesn't think about the prisoner on offense because it's invisible. on defense prisoner is not much of a threat anymore most of the times, his real quality/opness is maintaining almost 100% winratio if you pair him with the right toons and if you are skilled enough. you can take him against almost every team. paired with the immunity talismans or the hellhound = no tauntfest or freezefest for you, while others stuggle a lot with this.
this is a really HUGE and a game changing advantage. you can play much faster than others so that noone without a prisoner could compare with you, assuming both are playing as much as possible.

so a nerf is really necessary but i'm also against killing characters. he should have his niche like any other 5* out there and stay reasonably strong. i simply hope we will see some good changes soon, so that more fairness is reached....it's really a difficult balancing task though....

EDIT: was typing with kaz as it seems :-)... curious to see the new mechanics, could be interesting :-)

[CanyptianFit]

Just to clarify, Immunity does prevent it. This includes Immunity from Talismans and Skills. However, the reason the Hellhound may not affect it on the first turn is because his passive is the thing granting the immunity buff and if the Prisoner disables his passive, he will not grant the immunity buff to everyone.

The disable passive effect is blocked by Immunity in every case where it is not directly tied to a passive that has been disabled (i.e. The corrupt sentinel droid or warrior pyro soldier can cast Immunity on their team second round and the disable passive effect will be blocked by it, you can equip the Hellhound with Immunity Talismans so that his passive does not get blocked on the first turn and he therefore grants Immunity to his team, etc.)

Hope that clears things up.

-Kaz

Ah, that's huge Kaz, and assume that this applies both to offense and defense. As a prisoner-less player that will make a huge difference in my win rate, but dang, still seems like a heavy blow to those with the prisoner. It's not as bad as the prisoner now doesn't override passives (which is what was presumed) it's that he overrides passive unless they have immunity via talismans on first/second round, and via granting thereafter.

So hypothetically, if I have the green bat with immunity on the first round his passive is active against a prisoner, but if I lose immunity with the prisoner still alive on the other team, that passive gets removed by the prisoner in a subsequent round. Would that be right?

[Nicko]

Keep in mind even with no immunity there's only a 50% chance the toon will get debuffed

So put immunity on your Hellhound, bring a Red Pyro, and the Prisoner will be a complete non-issue on defense.

On offense? Less predictable to defend against - but if there is a Pyro or Droid in your defense there's a good chance he won't be a major factor there either.

[Silentknight]

Keep in mind even with no immunity there's only a 50% chance the toon will get debuffed

So put immunity on your Hellhound, bring a Red Pyro, and the Prisoner will be a complete non-issue on defense.

On offense? Less predictable to defend against - but if there is a Pyro or Droid in your defense there's a good chance he won't be a major factor there either.

Elite to unwanted! Things that don't grow...die! And other happy thoughts!

[Sparton_LOTB]

So hypothetically, if I have the green bat with immunity on the first round his passive is active against a prisoner, but if I lose immunity with the prisoner still alive on the other team, that passive gets removed by the prisoner in a subsequent round. Would that be right?

The Passive Disable is a negative status effect that tries to apply at the start of the Prisoner's team's turn. Immunity counts down it's duration at the start of the turn of the team the character is on. Therefore, under normal circumstances, when Immunity's duration runs out (or it is stolen/removed), you won't immediately get a Passive Disable status effect, because the timing of that rarely coincides with when Immunity will be going away.

[CanyptianFit]

Sorry Sparton, not clear enough with my example.

So round 1 immunity is active with talisman.

Beginning of round 2 I don't have immunity at all, there is a 50% chance my passive will be blocked by prisoner?

I'm not worried about round 1, considering round 2 and beyond.

[Jofer16]

The Passive Disable is a negative status effect that tries to apply at the start of the Prisoner's team's turn. Immunity counts down it's duration at the start of the turn of the team the character is on. Therefore, under normal circumstances, when Immunity's duration runs out (or it is stolen/removed), you won't immediately get a Passive Disable status effect, because the timing of that rarely coincides with when Immunity will be going away.

This explanation brings back flashbacks of reading the MTG rule book haha

[Sparton_LOTB]

Sorry Sparton, not clear enough with my example.

So round 1 immunity is active with talisman.

Beginning of round 2 I don't have immunity at all, there is a 50% chance my passive will be blocked by prisoner?

I'm not worried about round 1, considering round 2 and beyond.

Not immediately.

Regardless of who goes first, your Immunity wielder will be protected at the start of combat, as noted above. Also, your Immunity from that talisman will last until the end of your opponent's first turn (assuming you have a single set).

If you go first, then that means the start of combat Passive Aggression doesn't affect your character. Once your turn is over, it's the enemy's turn, and Passive Aggression will trigger again (still not able to affect your Immune character). Once the enemy's turn is over, Immunity wears off, but you still don't have Passive Disable on the character who was Immune (that doesn't have a chance of reapplying until the start of the enemy's next turn).

If your opponent goes first, it's a similar deal. Start of combat Passive Aggression still doesn't affect you, and once the enemy finishes their turn, the Immunity wears off (like any 1 turn defensive status effect would), but you still won't have a chance of Passive Disable being on that character until the end of your first turn (ie just before the enemy is starting their second turn).


This explanation brings back flashbacks of reading the MTG rule book haha

Man, it's been a while for me, that's for sure...

[gmac]

Keep in mind even with no immunity there's only a 50% chance the toon will get debuffed

So put immunity on your Hellhound, bring a Red Pyro, and the Prisoner will be a complete non-issue on defense.

On offense? Less predictable to defend against - but if there is a Pyro or Droid in your defense there's a good chance he won't be a major factor there either.

Nicko, no man, you're wrong.

Because of the complaints on the nerf they are now considering applying the debuff to EVERY TOON, EVERY ROUND.

But the complaints happened because everybody thought every immunity would counter it, INCLUDING HH AND ART DOG.

This is a big mess, if the debuff is indeed applied to every toon at the start of the battle, there is pretty much no difference, all passives will still be useless, and nothing will change on offence for prisoners teams, you will kill all passives first round, and deal with the talismans, the same as now!

Devs, the best way is all immunity counters it, including HH and Art Dog. If not It can't aplly to every toon, otherwise there is pretty much no difference from what is already happening.

[iPoop]

Getting caught up here. Boy there’s been a lot of posts!


If you want every piece equal play checkers ;)


This is the quote of the day! Damn did this make me chuckle. :D



You will never find equality or balance with RNG!

That’s been my experience too!




CG in the past and AoP now are both extreme nerfs that change lots of things and like Gmac said, AoP is dead on PvE and no one complain about it...


I am quite pissed about the AoP nerf. That’s one of the few decent toons that I have! Now my 954 ranking in PVP will be 1000+! :mad:



i fully agree, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to reach an optimum of fairness and equality, however that looks like IMO.


Slauki, I respectfully disagree with you. The reason is that “fairness” is often subjective. What you believe is fair and what I believe is fair may be, and likely is, different.

So for those that champion fairness, please be mindful that your fairness may be another’s unfairness. That is why the road of nerfing to achieve fairness never ends…until everything is equal…which some will say is fair…and I will call that checkers. :(

[Sag7272]

So if I understood everything, I got to start testing immunity set on my Hellhound then he'll work 100% whole team against passive agression on first turn...
Not that far from first assumptions just need an immunity set then Droid or Pyro will take care of it...
Back to the start of the conversation... Almost lol
Tanks all for clarifications, now everyone is on the same page at least :)

[Aristo4]

This all is too confusing. Just kill Chuck already.

[Tritium]

This all is too confusing. Just kill Chuck already.

Haha, that made me chuckle. From what I understand, the gimp (if this new idea of passive aggression becoming a debuff is kept) will block all passives on the first turn unless your guys have immunity talis (because that form of immunity isn't granted by a passive). HH/AD won't work unless they are equipped with immunity talis. So, your choices are either to bring a team full of immunity talis and sacrifice some damage, or bring a HH/AD with an immunity set. Passive aggression will go into effect at the beginning of the gimp team's turn, so if you go 2nd but your immunity wears off by the time you take your turn, you'll still have your passives active because passive aggression will only go back into effect when the gimp gets a turn.

TL;DR: Yeah, this is pretty fuckin' in-depth and confusing at first haha.

[Silentknight]

Bizarro Prisoner...Warden Maclo...Handcuff talismans...etc!

[Jofer16]

So for those that champion fairness, please be mindful that your fairness may be another’s unfairness. That is why the road of nerfing to achieve fairness never ends…until everything is equal…which some will say is fair…and I will call that checkers. :(

Here you go with that logic stuff again! I think some people just don't understand the nature of PvP, it seems this is the first taste for many. Everyone wants to be in 1st place and blames the ways we achieve it on not being fair. There are just some that are simply more motivated/skilled than others. I'm tempted to get Eternal with no Prisoner just to quiet this foolishness.

[Aristo4]

Haha, that made me chuckle. From what I understand, the gimp (if this new idea of passive aggression becoming a debuff is kept) will block all passives on the first turn unless your guys have immunity talis (because that form of immunity isn't granted by a passive). HH/AD won't work unless they are equipped with immunity talis. So, your choices are either to bring a team full of immunity talis and sacrifice some damage, or bring a HH/AD with an immunity set. Passive aggression will go into effect at the beginning of the gimp team's turn, so if you go 2nd but your immunity wears off by the time you take your turn, you'll still have your passives active because passive aggression will only go back into effect when the gimp gets a turn.

TL;DR: Yeah, this is pretty fuckin' in-depth and confusing at first haha.

That's exactly what buggs me...we were forced to use certain talismans just to face Chuck all this time, and we will continue to do so even more it seems. Also the sacrifice in damage is usually big.


Here you go with that logic stuff again! I think some people just don't understand the nature of PvP, it seems this is the first taste for many. Everyone wants to be in 1st place and blames the ways we achieve it on not being fair. There are just some that are simply more motivated/skilled than others. I'm tempted to get Eternal with no Prisoner just to quiet this foolishness.

Do it, we are all eager to see that, since no one dared to bench his prisoner. But provide also your last week's stats so we see the difference, for educational reasons only ofcourse. Good luck :cool:

[Sag7272]

Here you go with that logic stuff again! I think some people just don't understand the nature of PvP, it seems this is the first taste for many. Everyone wants to be in 1st place and blames the ways we achieve it on not being fair. There are just some that are simply more motivated/skilled than others. I'm tempted to get Eternal with no Prisoner just to quiet this foolishness.

"Fairness" is at first we all had the same RNG chances at pulling souls...

That's where it begins & stop, always will be worthless toons, OP ones & the one you miss/need it is made that way..

[mjmxiii]

Would be interested to see how many would actually go without Chuckles for the next few days before the update.. I'm about 99% sure that no one with a Prisoner as he is now goes without him for the last week he is OP.

[Nicko]

Nicko, no man, you're wrong.

Because of the complaints on the nerf they are now considering applying the debuff to EVERY TOON, EVERY ROUND.

But the complaints happened because everybody thought every immunity would counter it, INCLUDING HH AND ART DOG.

This is a big mess, if the debuff is indeed applied to every toon at the start of the battle, there is pretty much no difference, all passives will still be useless, and nothing will change on offence for prisoners teams, you will kill all passives first round, and deal with the talismans, the same as now!

Devs, the best way is all immunity counters it, including HH and Art Dog. If not It can't aplly to every toon, otherwise there is pretty much no difference from what is already happening.

I don't think I'm wrong. Immunity DOES counter it - unless you can't cast immunity. The Prisoner has a chance to trump the Hellhounds passive ability to cast immunity - BUT NOT IF THE HELLHOUND HAS IMMUNITY TALISMANS. Then the Prisoner can't stop him from granting immunity to the entire party, which neuters his ability to debuff anyone. Safe though first round. Second round and on? Cast immunity as a skill, not a passive - and that immunity on each member continues giving protection from the Prisoner.

So send an ordinary Hellhound? Yes - there's a 50% chance you won't get immunity from him. But equip him with Immunity Talismans? You're set - as i pointed out in my original post.

[slauki]

Here you go with that logic stuff again! I think some people just don't understand the nature of PvP, it seems this is the first taste for many. Everyone wants to be in 1st place and blames the ways we achieve it on not being fair. There are just some that are simply more motivated/skilled than others. I'm tempted to get Eternal with no Prisoner just to quiet this foolishness.

just one question: do you think it is fair that a strategy exists that cannot be countered no matter how "skilled" you are? (look at beta taunt and freezefest for example).
this was only possible because the prisoner and siege removed every defense ability available and turned this game into a luckfest when going 2nd. where is the strategy part of that, that's a pure gamble...

now 98% of people without a prisoner cannot counter siege, so we are a basicly a two class society, the ones that can play against almost eveyone, and others who highly rely on luck when playing versus many
opponents. this is too much of a difference if you ask me and indeed i think this is highy unfair.

every strategy has to have a counter strategy otherwise this is unfair/unbalanced/OP imo .

[Jofer16]

Do it, we are all eager to see that, since no one dared to bench his prisoner. But provide also your last week's stats so we see the difference, for educational reasons only ofcourse. Good luck :cool:

Challenge accepted. I'm down by 1,000+ points from 1st place now so if I come back there can be no excuses, let's see how the Prisonerless teams fair. Dropping him from offense/defense now...

[Nicko]

Challenge accepted. I'm down by 1,000+ points from 1st place now so if I come back there can be no excuses, let's see how the Prisonerless teams fair. Dropping him from offense/defense now...

And I'm out of the race this week (as if i'm ever truly in it with Jofer around ;)) - so this will be really interesting because Fallen Angel (currently number 1) doesn't have a Prisoner either.

Jofer - thanks for livening up the PvP race this weekend!

[iPoop]

Challenge accepted. I'm down by 1,000+ points from 1st place now so if I come back there can be no excuses, let's see how the Prisonerless teams fair. Dropping him from offense/defense now...

Oh sh*t, its on! Good luck brother!

[CanyptianFit]

Jofer, while others may make not having the prisoner an excuse not to place top 25, a number of us have placed not only top 10 without the prisoner, but top 10 without the prisoner and without spending on ironite.

I know you can be number 1 based on your dedication/time allotment and strategy without using prisoner. Hopefully you don't get many game crashes.

It takes both time allotment and strategy while having a decent toon build to pull from to achieve no. 1.

Make it so!

😃

Crap, I got to put my 3 kids to bed, good night all.

[Aristo4]

Challenge accepted. I'm down by 1,000+ points from 1st place now so if I come back there can be no excuses, let's see how the Prisonerless teams fair. Dropping him from offense/defense now...

Excuses for what? Good that you do it, but if you don't do a full week to compare stats, that's still not so relevant. Lets say you needed right now 200 more attacks to go to rank 1, without Gimp you'll need more, since there will be many fuckups vs siege.

Without before-after stats we'll never know exactly Chuck's impact....and we'll probably never know exactly now that he takes the piss :cool:

[Silentknight]

And I'm out of the race this week (as if i'm ever truly in it with Jofer around ;)) - so this will be really interesting because Fallen Angel (currently number 1) doesn't have a Prisoner either.

Jofer - thanks for livening up the PvP race this weekend!
Yeah,this is gonna get ugly!

[HomemLivre]

just one question: do you think it is fair that a strategy exists that cannot be countered no matter how "skilled" you are? (look at beta taunt and freezefest for example).
this was only possible because the prisoner and siege removed every defense ability available and turned this game into a luckfest when going 2nd. where is the strategy part of that, that's a pure gamble...

now 98% of people without a prisoner cannot counter siege, so we are a basicly a two class society, the ones that can play against almost eveyone, and others who highly rely on luck when playing versus many
opponents. this is too much of a difference if you ask me and indeed i think this is highy unfair.

every strategy has to have a counter strategy otherwise this is unfair/unbalanced/OP imo .

Your one of the guys who most contribute here in this forum as always, thanks for your words of wisdom.

[Caretaker]

Good luck Jofer! Show all it can and will be done without the pris! You can comment later how hard it was and how many times you were tempted to bring in the prisoner on offense and did you remain strong or you failed under Saturday preassure to run for it. I support your run and I'm not taking revs on you (those defs we eat for breakfast) a few pts won't bug me, but I hope others will revenge more so you get to taste the feeling. Same goses to Fallen. Would you concider making a thread so that we can spam there and not here?(It is interesting to see there is no siege char on you def (anti pris build) but the owerpowered in its every aspect SSD remains @devs, nerf that one's taunt rate)

To all, I hope that you are right and I am wrong this time. I am not sorry to come out strong (minding not to be impolite, just strong in my case and not to take the grudge on person but the idea, I hope you see that). And I will do it every time people are missled, arguments opscure and the logic flawed.

You say if u immunize the hellhound with talis his passive will work. So all toons will be immune. We are talking about the first round. Rounds after that did not matter as we are used to it and have counters for it.
But.. The way I am reading it, immunizing the hellhound wouldn't do it. While it will be immune, therefore not stunned, if you go second his passive can and will still be blocked by pris so other toones are not immune. @Sparton, @kaz, please tell us straight out which is true, we are like geese in the mist with current replies. Tnx.

[surfingwithdje]

About the character tuning and the Angel of strife, is there any consideration for change the color of the blue talismant slot with a green one ?
I don't understand the utility of that blue slot ?

[Patrice-1201]

Challenge accepted. I'm down by 1,000+ points from 1st place now so if I come back there can be no excuses, let's see how the Prisonerless teams fair. Dropping him from offense/defense now...

Classy move and I'm quite certain you'll prove your point ;-)

[konstifik]

If the devs want to shake up the use of more/different toons in PvP, they should introduce some system for removable skill shards. The true potential of a character is only unlocked when fully sharded. So, even when a character gets nerfed, people will still be hesitant to drop it from their team because a nerfed fully sharded character will still likely be better than another character with no shards. And even with buffs introduced to other characters, we will be slow to start using them because we probably don't have them sharded and don't see the point to use them until they are, which takes a long time. This creates an inert system where players change very slowly. Removable skill shards would increase the pace of change and make for a much more dynamic game.

However, freely removing skill shards would derail their value too much. There are tons of way to limit it of course. I suggest that it is based on a weekly reset, so every week you get the option to remove all skill shards from one character. A second suggestion is that we can earn some kind of dispensable removing tool - a rare resource that when applied to a character would remove all of its skill shards. Whatever way it's done, I think it would be important that while limiting the pace that we could remove skill shards, there should be no built-in discouragement from doing so (e g removing all skill shards from a character would cost you a skill shard as well).

[Silentknight]

Classy move and I'm quite certain you'll prove your point ;-)

Kinda pointless anyways when u don't know who's benefiting from the low attack bug!

[slauki]

Challenge accepted. I'm down by 1,000+ points from 1st place now so if I come back there can be no excuses, let's see how the Prisonerless teams fair. Dropping him from offense/defense now...

i respect your efforts, but dropping the prisoner from the defense shouldn't have a huge impac on your hold %, the more important factor remains the number of attacks you suffer from. so this is really not such a meaningfull move. if you really drop him from your offense team, it would be a real huge task to accomplist the 10.000 mark without him. but starting at 5000 points and starting from 1900 is a completly different story and it leads also to some biases. i would really be impressed if you could reach 10k without him. but as aristo pointed out without before/after stats nothing is verified/or falsified and we all know that you are a dedicaded and skilled player, so no doubt about that anyway.

curious to see what you will do, and it's kinda cool to have some action here. so i wish you good luck and fallen angel too of course. so we only need some cheerleader and some merchandise stuff like jofer, nicko or fallen angel jerseys and caps :D

[Sag7272]

Not that I love to dig older posts but to be all talking about same things...


You say if u immunize the hellhound with talis his passive will work. So all toons will be immune. We are talking about the first round. Rounds after that did not matter as we are used to it and have counters for it.
But.. The way I am reading it, immunizing the hellhound wouldn't do it...
It was answered not that long ago...

...
The disable passive effect is blocked by Immunity in every case where it is not directly tied to a passive that has been disabled (i.e. you can equip the Hellhound with Immunity Talismans so that his passive does not get blocked on the first turn and he therefore grants Immunity to his team, etc.)
Hope that clears things up.
-Kaz

[Nicko]

Thanks Sag - with so much discussion it's easy to miss the official response.

So no worries - immunity on Hellhound and your Troll shield will work. You'll resist freeze and stun the first round. And with a Red Pyro or Green Droid, youre fine the rest of the match too.

Ding Dong the Gimp is dead...

[Nicko]

Good luck Jofer! Show all it can and will be done without the pris! You can comment later how hard it was and how many times you were tempted to bring in the prisoner on offense and did you remain strong or you failed under Saturday preassure to run for it. I support your run...Would you concider making a thread so that we can spam there and not here?(It is interesting to see there is no siege char on you def (anti pris build) .

As much as it is possible he'll do it - I think you're right - it will be really hard. And if he has no Siege character - it's even harder for him than it would be for anyone with a Blue Bat or DD.

Jofer - agree with Caretaker -it would be great to have a thread after with your honest observations. Good luck!

[R1ck]

So now the must have in PVP will be either hellhound or art dog, nice I don't have neither. Luckily there are immunity talismans, which are yellow by the way, making difficult to wear on a red troll because will make him not so resistant. Off course red troll will be nerfed as well.
Anyways it looks an interesting change on PVP, hope it does not affect new people on PVE

[Sag7272]

Thanks Sag - with so much discussion it's easy to miss the official response.
My pleasure, have to say it got pretty technical at some point, at least we all got a better understanding of it all now..


Ding Dong the Gimp is dead...
:( Farming LoL will never be the same...

Only good part is to have back the "Mandatory" Prisoner's spot on defense and that's refreshing :)

[Silentknight]

Thanks Sag - with so much discussion it's easy to miss the official response.

So no worries - immunity on Hellhound and your Troll shield will work. You'll resist freeze and stun the first round. And with a Red Pyro or Green Droid, youre fine the rest of the match too.

Ding Dong the Gimp is dead...

Of course Sag was right,why do u think it got so quiet! Thx!!! Glad someone else was paying attention. Pointless thread if u ask me! Back to the beginning! Stay of execution was short lived!

[Caretaker]

Yeah, tnx sag, I'll look it up.

Hey, if that is so, the counter to immunizing hh is obviously death dog + prisoner = dd removes talis provided immunity on hh and prisoner's passive does the rest of his job.

[DickinsonMan]

Jofer could do 3 vortex sacrifices by dropping only dupes so he could keep 1 of each in case he needs to adapt his strategy. I guess he was super lucky...

I play since the begining of the game (June or July was it?) and kept all my dupes >=4*. Even if I update them all to 5* and max level due to the fact that upgrading a character to the next level does not increase its value significantly (which is unfair for the effort required to get those 3* Evo, I can be happy if I can update 1 char/week but I had 0 in a month to balance with that...) I might just have enough to do 1 vortex sacrifice. What I can only complain to is the RNG for not dropping me better dupes so I could do better sacrifice. Sweet...

Ranking as Eternal or King in PvP gives you additional skill shards, so we have an elite of a few 25 players who are gaining more flexibility in their strategy by getting additional shards (probably keeping a stack to adapt to the next tuning, which I would do too...). And the other players have no chance to compete with them because by the time we've catch up by upgrading 1-2 chars, the next tuning arrives and frustrates you...

I have 50 troopers and play them everyday, but I don't get more than 1 crystal shard every 4 days, so not all my troopers are doing their part of the job (thanks a lot those who do by the way and enjoy the ride while you can to the others :P) and there is no solution coming to figure out how many points did my trooper bring me in the last 7-14 days which would be an excellent statistic.

Clearly I don't know what strategy now to adopt. Do I try to collect 30 skill shards (about 15 weeks) and then figure out what is the trend to setup a good team? That won't help me much anyway because the gap between me and the top 25 will just have gotten bigger. When attacking you have to adapt to the defending team, so the more skill shards you have, the more you get and the stronger you remain....

I understand that Jofer doesn't want any change (who would in his position?), but the system is currently at his advantage.

I think I’ll be looking for Brave New World and the Night City, hope the dev don’t spend too much time on tuning and more on new content overall. I'm not interested in new characters either, I just want to collect the missing characters (maybe if you implement the collector's souls I proposed? http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?4956-My-suggestions-for-updates)



TOTALLY AGREE, man. I also play since the begining of the game and i'm sure that there is a little group of players who are getting additional shards and making the gap between them and the rest bigger, and that will kill PVP playing. I'm expecting for the BNW and some other new worlds or levels because I don't think PVP will last too much for "common" players... I'm trying it, really, but i'm sure that i'll be quitting PVP in a few days or couple of weeks if things go on this way.

[Nicko]

Yeah, tnx sag, I'll look it up.

Hey, if that is so, the counter to immunizing hh is obviously death dog + prisoner = dd removes talis provided immunity on hh and prisoner's passive does the rest of his job.

That IS possible. But not probable - so likely poor strategy. The Death Dog removes effects from "up to" two characters per round. So let's assume it's two - there is a 50% chance of it being your Hellhound. Then, the Prisoner only has a 50% chance of applying his debuff even if the Deathdog did indeed affect the Hellhound. Not great odds all things considered. I think you'll start seeing more Deathdogs than Prisoners - the added benefit from the Prisoner - with the info we have right now - just doesn't seem that incrementally great.

I have seen very few teams combining the Prisoner with a Blue Bat or DD because of the decrease in firepower or other skills (healing, shields). It simply doesn't make sense - and if we were going to see that combo it would be now - because it has a 100% chance of squashing the new talismans.

So yes - it's possible you may see that if someone wants to roll the dice. But I don't think they'll be very successful.

[Sag7272]

And now I'm stuck asking myself...
With current state update, how would end passive agression if two prisoners happened to face in the arena?

If it works like I understood t'll now...
Initiative's team passive would (possibly) block other team's passive agression thus nullifying 2nd turn Prisoner's passive?
So 2nd turn team would need an immune set to keep passive agression working with 100% chances...

[Silentknight]

And now I'm stuck asking myself...
With current state update, how would end passive agression if two prisoners happened to face in the arena?

If it works like I understood t'll now...
Initiative's team passive would (possibly) block other team's passive agression thus nullifying 2nd turn Prisoner's passive?
So 2nd turn team would need an immune set to keep passive agression working with 100% chances...
Way to 'deep' for me! Just do the update & let's play!!! Soooooo glad we started sharing stats! Nicko's 100% is a problem but 98% w/o prisoner is ok...really! No wait,it's on offence. How the hell does anyone know what I do on offence? One of the ONLY secrets left! Then it's # of times attacked...bugged lists have nothing to do with that??? Having a prisoner might lessen attacks but not by much! Especially when the ones whining about it attack me WAY more than I attack them,with identical hold rates...pathetic! Who you gunna blame after the castration!

[Silentknight]

And now I'm stuck asking myself...
With current state update, how would end passive agression if two prisoners happened to face in the arena?

If it works like I understood t'll now...
Initiative's team passive would (possibly) block other team's passive agression thus nullifying 2nd turn Prisoner's passive?
So 2nd turn team would need an immune set to keep passive agression working with 100% chances...
If ur stuck then we're in serious trouble! Ur the one I look to for advice!!! Nicko,Gmac as well! Told Nicko when this update was announced,with all the things that need to work together it's going to be a MAJOR clusterfu<k! Think toons attacking their own team is bad...just wait!

[Sparton_LOTB]

So no worries - immunity on Hellhound and your Troll shield will work. You'll resist freeze and stun the first round. And with a Red Pyro or Green Droid, youre fine the rest of the match too.

Ding Dong the Gimp is dead...

You've described 3/4 of a team with that, though. I think it's reasonably to theorycraft that, but suddenly you're running a team that's heavily susceptible to strong Magus AoE (such as Grim Reaper Eddie, or perhaps ironically, Angel of Pain).

Of course, we'll see when it goes live.


And now I'm stuck asking myself...
With current state update, how would end passive agression if two prisoners happened to face in the arena?

If it works like I understood t'll now...
Initiative's team passive would (possibly) block other team's passive agression thus nullifying 2nd turn Prisoner's passive?
So 2nd turn team would need an immune set to keep passive agression working with 100% chances...

I'm not 100% sure, but start of combat I believe it rolls the same way it currently does (both sides will fire it), but based on who actually has it at the start of their turn, they may or may not try to suppress passives on their turn. This gives an advantage to the team who went first if the opposing Prisoner was Passive Disabled... unless that other Prisoner transfers the debuff back.

I guess it can become a game of hot potato...

[Tritium]

I'm not 100% sure, but start of combat I believe it rolls the same way it currently does (both sides will fire it), but based on who actually has it at the start of their turn, they may or may not try to suppress passives on their turn. This gives an advantage to the team who went first if the opposing Prisoner was Passive Disabled... unless that other Prisoner transfers the debuff back.

I guess it can become a game of hot potato...

That sounds like quite an amusing scenario haha (the hot potato part). I hadn't even thought of how Prisoner vs. Prisoner will work after the update. Sounds like he may not even be able to counter himself anymore.

[Silentknight]

Challenge accepted. I'm down by 1,000+ points from 1st place now so if I come back there can be no excuses, let's see how the Prisonerless teams fair. Dropping him from offense/defense now...

1200 point lead 5 hrs ago...500 now! Poor FallenAngel!!!

[Caretaker]

That IS possible. But not probable - so likely poor strategy. The Death Dog removes effects from "up to" two characters per round. So let's assume it's two - there is a 50% chance of it being your Hellhound. Then, the Prisoner only has a 50% chance of applying his debuff even if the Deathdog did indeed affect the Hellhound. Not great odds all things considered. I think you'll start seeing more Deathdogs than Prisoners - the added benefit from the Prisoner - with the info we have right now - just doesn't seem that incrementally great.

I have seen very few teams combining the Prisoner with a Blue Bat or DD because of the decrease in firepower or other skills (healing, shields). It simply doesn't make sense - and if we were going to see that combo it would be now - because it has a 100% chance of squashing the new talismans.

So yes - it's possible you may see that if someone wants to roll the dice. But I don't think they'll be very successful.

Nicko my friend, how would you like 50% proc chance on freeze or paralyisis talismans? Would you? That is way too much. People said freez overproced at 35% haha. And what is taunt rate on ssd sharded? and it proc like hell. So basicly 50% means all the time, don't worry.

And it is good we didn't, and good we won't, well it is a diversity goal here, isn't it? Don't you want it?

And a few other things. If you go second, knowing you, viking will loot for whatever you want and came out of the passives, and some speed of light could be used in some trade. If you go first, yeah, you won't kill or cc all the bad creatures at once like u used to :) which is good and gives defences a chance

Wellcome to rolling the dice, the game that most of the people are still playing.

[Nicko]

Nicko my friend, how would you like 50% proc chance on freeze or paralyisis talismans? Would you? That is way too much. People said freez overproced at 35% haha. And what is taunt rate on ssd sharded? and it proc like hell. So basicly 50% means all the time, don't worry.

And it is good we didn't, and good we won't, well it is a diversity goal here, isn't it? Don't you want it?

And a few other things. If you go second, knowing you, viking will loot for whatever you want and came out of the passives, and some speed of light could be used in some trade. If you go first, yeah, you won't kill or cc all the bad creatures at once like u used to :) which is good and gives defences a chance

Wellcome to rolling the dice, the game that most of the people are still playing.

It's 50% chance to disable a passive - big difference than being stunned ;). And many will bring a Troll and Hellhound in anyway - I know I always do if facing a non-Prisoner team - so putting immunity on the Hellhound is no big deal

I'm not denying it's a different game without the Prisoner and a nerf is needed. I did almost the entire beta with no Troll successfully - got one at the end - and a Prisoner nerf will just cause those of us blowing through teams with him to rethink things. And in a game that can get repetitive - that's not a bad thing

[Jofer16]

1200 point lead 5 hrs ago...500 now! Poor FallenAngel!!!

All caught up now, after beating my head against the wall last night and a bit this morning things really started to click. Let's see how much ironite Fallen wants to blow haha now my engines are firing on all cylinders.

And just in case anyone thinks I'm sneaking Prisoner on offense just take a look, I removed his talismans to use on other toons when I made the switch. He's still rocking a pair of boosts but that's because my inventory was full when swapping them out and was too lazy to sell a couple. This should be a clear indicator he's been on my bench while attacking.

Oh and sorry for all the attacks silent, you keep perpetually showing up on my lists :)

[Bradata]

All caught up now, after beating my head against the wall last night and a bit this morning things really started to click. Let's see how much ironite Fallen wants to blow haha now my engines are firing on all cylinders.

And just in case anyone thinks I'm sneaking Prisoner on offense just take a look, I removed his talismans to use on other toons when I made the switch. He's still rocking a pair of boosts but that's because my inventory was full when swapping them out and was too lazy to sell a couple. This should be a clear indicator he's been on my bench while attacking.

Oh and sorry for all the attacks silent, you keep perpetually showing up on my lists :)

Ha ha, you are really the crusher of FallenAngel's dreams!
Somehow mid week I knew this was gonna happen, you just needed an excuse :p

[Jofer16]

Ha ha, you are really the crusher of FallenAngel's dreams!
Somehow mid week I knew this was gonna happen, you just needed an excuse :p

Never poke a sleeping grizzly bear haha Fallen's day will come soon enough. This was more about showing how Prisoner is not deserving of the all mighty OP talk and maybe provide some more input for the devs. I was actually shocked at how little trouble I had with him after getting a little creative, I've never been without him since day 1 so always assumed he was a death sentence to face without him. 100% not the case. I did have to start using ability rotations I've never used and even some brand new abilities so it's been fun. But yeah I'm kinda surprised by it all.

Edit: and my defense is 4/10 for holds on my revenge list so it's not like it came crashing down either. all 4 different people so not a single frustrated user losing over and over edge case.

[Silentknight]

All caught up now, after beating my head against the wall last night and a bit this morning things really started to click. Let's see how much ironite Fallen wants to blow haha now my engines are firing on all cylinders.

And just in case anyone thinks I'm sneaking Prisoner on offense just take a look, I removed his talismans to use on other toons when I made the switch. He's still rocking a pair of boosts but that's because my inventory was full when swapping them out and was too lazy to sell a couple. This should be a clear indicator he's been on my bench while attacking.

Oh and sorry for all the attacks silent, you keep perpetually showing up on my lists :)

Np,felt kinda bad revenging u. Happy to help prove a point. Even if u did start at 5000,FallenAngel didn't...so case closed!

[Silentknight]

Never poke a sleeping grizzly bear haha Fallen's day will come soon enough. This was more about showing how Prisoner is not deserving of the all mighty OP talk and maybe provide some more input for the devs. I was actually shocked at how little trouble I had with him after getting a little creative, I've never been without him since day 1 so always assumed he was a death sentence to face without him. 100% not the case. I did have to start using ability rotations I've never used and even some brand new abilities so it's been fun. But yeah I'm kinda surprised by it all.

Edit: and my defense is 4/10 for holds on my revenge list so it's not like it came crashing down either. all 4 different people so not a single frustrated user losing over and over edge case.
Actually just got back home & checked ranks. #1 & 2 no prisoner. Leaderboard must be bugged! Congrats...again,lol

[Jofer16]

Np,felt kinda bad revenging u. Happy to help prove a point. Even if u did start at 5000,FallenAngel didn't...so case closed!

Someone gets it! Yeah the point is I was behind a considerable amount and came back quickly. I could do it from reset on if I wanted just the same. Fallen is right up there with Gmac as the most relentless and determined I've seen so far, so it was a worthy test. Respect bud.

This was my other back of the mind goal with 10k just so when/if the nerf happens people aren't like, Jofer only won before because of the Prisoner!!! blah blah blah

But it ain't over yet, maybe Fallen has a trick up his sleeve :)

[Silentknight]

Someone gets it! Yeah the point is I was behind a considerable amount and came back quickly. I could do it from reset on if I wanted just the same. Fallen is right up there with Gmac as the most relentless and determined I've seen so far, so it was a worthy test. Respect bud.

This was my other back of the mind goal with 10k just so when/if the nerf happens people aren't like, Jofer only won before because of the Prisoner!!! blah blah blah

But it ain't over yet, maybe Fallen has a trick up his sleeve :)

Btw,FallenAngel is also a kickass trooper! U 2 Gmac!

[angelkelly]

Never poke a sleeping grizzly bear haha Fallen's day will come soon enough. This was more about showing how Prisoner is not deserving of the all mighty OP talk and maybe provide some more input for the devs. .

First off, I still think the prisoner deserves a magnificent nerf regardless of your little test run. Which is irrelevant, since you haven't went a full week without using him. And of course you are always going to be number 1 with or without the prisoner. Why? Because unlike the millions of people who have downloaded this game. Only you, are willing to spend hours a day fighting endlessly. Just to stay at number 1. Peep why pvp is not worth it...like seriously the arena has been out for about 2 months now and only you have been able 2 reach number 1. Again why? Because you choose to spend a infinite amount of ironite staying where you are. Vs those who don't... So keep that in mind...when you are fighting. Btw I guarantee you won't be number 1 without those refills, 😁😁Who would?!😁😁

[mjmxiii]

I'm tempted to get Eternal with no Prisoner just to quiet this foolishness.

Well done Jofer!

[Jofer16]

First off, I still think the prisoner deserves a magnificent nerf regardless of your little test run. Which is irrelevant, since you haven't went a full week without using him. And of course you are always going to be number 1 with or without the prisoner. Why? Because unlike the millions of people who have downloaded this game. Only you, are willing to spend hours a day fighting endlessly. Just to stay at number 1. Peep why pvp is not worth it...like seriously the arena has been out for about 2 months now and only you have been able 2 reach number 1. Again why? Because you choose to spend a infinite amount of ironite staying where you are. Vs those who don't... So keep that in mind...when you are fighting. Btw I guarantee you won't be number 1 without those refills, 😁😁Who would?!😁😁

These tears are delicious.

[mjmxiii]

These tears are delicious.

Lol! Mmm tears of infinite sadness! 😆

[Sag7272]

These tears are delicious.

That one almost made my day :) ^^

[Tritium]

Out of curiosity Jofer, how are the typical taunt teams (blue bat, ssd, mummy, and either red pyro or troll) for you right now without a Prisoner? The blue bat nullifies using HH/troll or immunity talis, so I'm curious as to how you're approaching these teams. For me, if they go first, I generally have about a 40% chance to win depending on if RNGesus wants to dropkick me in the face or if he wants to be my friend for once. :p Sometimes, I don't even get a SINGLE turn in. Makes me glad Mummy is getting a much-needed nerf.

[Jofer16]

Out of curiosity Jofer, how are the typical taunt teams (blue bat, ssd, mummy, and either red pyro or troll) for you right now without a Prisoner? The blue bat nullifies using HH/troll or immunity talis, so I'm curious as to how you're approaching these teams. For me, if they go first, I generally have about a 40% chance to win depending on if RNGesus wants to dropkick me in the face or if he wants to be my friend for once. :p Sometimes, I don't even get a SINGLE turn in. Makes me glad Mummy is getting a much-needed nerf.

I'll give you my thoughts on Blue Bat after we're done :)

[Jofer16]

First off, I still think the prisoner deserves a magnificent nerf regardless of your little test run. Which is irrelevant, since you haven't went a full week without using him. And of course you are always going to be number 1 with or without the prisoner. Why? Because unlike the millions of people who have downloaded this game. Only you, are willing to spend hours a day fighting endlessly. Just to stay at number 1. Peep why pvp is not worth it...like seriously the arena has been out for about 2 months now and only you have been able 2 reach number 1. Again why? Because you choose to spend a infinite amount of ironite staying where you are. Vs those who don't... So keep that in mind...when you are fighting. Btw I guarantee you won't be number 1 without those refills, 😁😁Who would?!😁😁

For some reason this quote popped up in my head, I need to watch Scarface...

What you lookin' at? You all a bunch of fuckin' assholes. You know why? You don't have the guts to be what you wanna be. You need people like me. You need people like me so you can point your fuckin' fingers and say, "That's the bad guy." - Tony Montana

[Silentknight]

For some reason this quote popped up in my head, I need to watch Scarface...

What you lookin' at? You all a bunch of fuckin' assholes. You know why? You don't have the guts to be what you wanna be. You need people like me. You need people like me so you can point your fuckin' fingers and say, "That's the bad guy." - Tony Montana

Really wish u'd quit doin that! Now i gotta watch that tonight. 'Say hello to my little friend!' Great movie!

[gmac]

Someone gets it! Yeah the point is I was behind a considerable amount and came back quickly. I could do it from reset on if I wanted just the same. Fallen is right up there with Gmac as the most relentless and determined I've seen so far, so it was a worthy test. Respect bud.

This was my other back of the mind goal with 10k just so when/if the nerf happens people aren't like, Jofer only won before because of the Prisoner!!! blah blah blah

But it ain't over yet, maybe Fallen has a trick up his sleeve :)

Hey man!

Lots of class going after FallenAngel without the Prisoner :) And hell, you do adapt fast...

I hope you guys put on a show tomorrow, it should happen every Saturday...

And FallenAngel, come on, he was 11th by a point to SilentKinght one week, than next week I pushed him out of 5th final hours, but he never stops, and gets better every damn week. He a super player, If anyone deserves eternal other than you, he is the one.

For me, after I saw you erase SholinLondon 2k advantage AND put a 1k lead in like 4 or 5 hours I realized I could not compete with you. And when everybody showed theirs stats I saw the extra edge Prisoner owners had.

I believe one can play faster with him on offense, so I changed my focus from Arena results, to try and get him. But not to be, G/A souls from arena and trooper points, nautical souls... nothing :/

Anyways, perhaps I'm wrong, but after you guys are done tomorrow, maybe you could give us your thoughts on this matter (offense speed with and without Prisoner)

Wish you and FallenAngel a super Saturday! We'll be watching!

Cheers
Gmac

[RCarter]

since you haven't went a full week without using him.

Did you forget that Fallen has gone without him?

Jofer, you are the fucking man.

[Nicko]

Hey man!

Lots of class going after FallenAngel without the Prisoner :) And hell, you do adapt fast...

I hope you guys put on a show tomorrow, it should happen every Saturday...

And FallenAngel, come on, he as 11th by a point to SilentKinght one week, than next week I pushed him out of 5th final hours, but he never stops, and gets better every damn week. He a super player, If anyone deserves eternal other than you, he is the one.

For me, after I saw you erase SholinLondon 2k advantage AND put a 1k lead in like 4 or 5 hours I realized I could not compete with you. And when everybody showed theirs stats I saw the extra edger Prisoner owners had.

I believe one can play faster with him on offense, so I changed my focus from Arena results, to try and get him. But not to be, G/A souls from arena and trooper points, nautical souls... nothing :/

Anyways, perhaps I'm wrong, but after you guys are done tomorrow, maybe you could give us your thoughts on this matters (offense speed with and without Prisoner)

Wish you and FallenAngel a super Saturday! We'll be watching!

Cheers
Gmac

Great post. Awesome Jofer is taking on the challenge without a Prisoner - but Fallen Angel deserves a ton of respect - because he's never had the Prisoner and is always competitive.

[gmac]

Great post. Awesome Jofer is taking on the challenge without a Prisoner - but Fallen Angel deserves a ton of respect - because he's never had the Prisoner and is always competitive.

Yeah, FallenAngel is a Monster, every week up there no matter what... can't do it myself.

You too Nicko, great job every week on Arena by the way.

And here on the forum too... you hold us together.

Thank you.

[Lord Schmeb]

These tears are delicious.


This. Is. Awesome.

[Lord Schmeb]

By the way, I want in on this weeks competition. I wasn't going to, but Jopher needs some friends up at the top. Currently 1171 in the rankings...

Too tired. @ 46 for now, but am getting rim-jobbed on D. Tomorrow...

[Jofer16]

By the way, I want in on this weeks competition. I wasn't going to, but Jopher needs some friends up at the top. Currently 1171 in the rankings...

Too tired. @ 46 for now, but am getting rim-jobbed on D. Tomorrow...

Good luck with your grind today!

[Jofer16]

Great post. Awesome Jofer is taking on the challenge without a Prisoner - but Fallen Angel deserves a ton of respect - because he's never had the Prisoner and is always competitive.

Your message storage is full :)

[Nicko]

Your message storage is full :)

Thanks - I'm bad about deleting

Cleared!

[CanyptianFit]

I'm old so I don't know how to do it, but right now I want to add the gif with the guy munching on the popcorn in the theater, watching all this trash talk going.

It's a game, but Damn are we passionate or what.

Happy Saturday all!

Cheers!

[Sparton_LOTB]

I'm old so I don't know how to do it, but right now I want to add the gif with the guy munching on the popcorn in the theater, watching all this trash talk going.

2739

Good luck with the fight everyone!

[Jofer16]

2739

Good luck with the fight everyone!

Haha! Yes! Thriller!

[Tritium]

Can't wait for the April update. Taunt teams are so damn depressing for me now lol. I just tap to fight them, see that I lose the coin toss, then go do something else while my team gets taunted to oblivion. Blue bat really did need to be changed. His current passive is worse than the Prisoner for me right now. At least Prisoner teams don't wipe out my immunity and shell talis.

Anyway, back to the Saturday PVPalooza. Good luck, everyone!

[Jofer16]

Can't wait for the April update. Taunt teams are so damn depressing for me now lol. I just tap to fight them, see that I lose the coin toss, then go do something else while my team gets taunted to oblivion. Blue bat really did need to be changed. His current passive is worse than the Prisoner for me right now. At least Prisoner teams don't wipe out my immunity and shell talis.

Anyway, back to the Saturday PVPalooza. Good luck, everyone!

Ding ding ding! Winner! This was my biggest finding through all this, and I was shocked. Now that the meta has shifted to Talismans being more essential than passives, Blue Bat is the truely OP toon, Prisoner not in the slightest. I could only think up 1 team build to do well, you have to stack immunity like crazy, toons like Red Pyro that have a 3 round buff.

I think most of the complaints from prisoner must come from Blue Bat users who don't realize this. He's the only easy counter where Prisoner has tons of possible teams that will take him down. So to Blue Bat users, I can see why they say this, he takes away that OP factor for them.

Now I do agree Prisoner dumbs the game down killing passives, but he's not even close to OP. He could use an adjustment to open the game up more but if this is coupled with any sort of nerf/overall power reduction, I'll be upset. Simply because it means the devs are giving into the mob.

Change his mechanics to open up more passives and create diversity, don't make him weaker. I've had zero issues facing Prisoner while I've not been using him and my point accumulation speed hasn't changed much. In some cases it's gotten even faster because I swapped him out for more overall damage so I'm killing stuff faster.

And I need to add, just got a rare G/A soul from Kingdom of the Sands normal secret. Don't remember the last time that happened!

[Tritium]

Ding ding ding! Winner! This was my biggest finding through all this, and I was shocked. Now that the meta has shifted to Talismans being more essential than passives, Blue Bat is the truely OP toon, Prisoner not in the slightest. I could only think up 1 team build to do well, you have to stack immunity like crazy, toons like Red Pyro that have a 3 round buff.

I think most of the complaints from prisoner must come from Blue Bat users who don't realize this. He's the only easy counter where Prisoner has tons of possible teams that will take him down. So to Blue Bat users, I can see why they say this, he takes away that OP factor for them.

Now I do agree Prisoner dumbs the game down killing passives, but he's not even close to OP. He could use an adjustment to open the game up more but if this is coupled with any sort of nerf/overall power reduction, I'll be upset. Simply because it means the devs are giving into the mob.

Change his mechanics to open up more passives and create diversity, don't make him weaker. I've had zero issues facing Prisoner while I've not been using him and my point accumulation speed hasn't changed much. In some cases it's gotten even faster because I swapped him out for more overall damage so I'm killing stuff faster.

And I need to add, just got a rare G/A soul from Kingdom of the Sands normal secret. Don't remember the last time that happened!

I fully agree with your analysis, man. Hell, people were even rightly predicting that if the Prisoner got neutered via nerfs and the blue bat/DD remained untouched, that the blue bat/DD would become the next OP toon. You can't nerf one of those two without nerfing the other.

Side note: Jofer, I noticed that it said you were inactive for 2 days on the trooper list yesterday. Considering how you were actively PVPing like the terminator you are, this led me to theorize that maybe the trooper list only shows activity based on the last PVE run someone does.

Sparton, would you be able to confirm this if possible?

[Jofer16]

I fully agree with your analysis, man. Hell, people were even rightly predicting that if the Prisoner got neutered via nerfs and the blue bat/DD remained untouched, that the blue bat/DD would become the next OP toon. You can't nerf one of those two without nerfing the other.

Side note: Jofer, I noticed that it said you were inactive for 2 days on the trooper list yesterday. Considering how you were actively PVPing like the terminator you are, this led me to theorize that maybe the trooper list only shows activity based on the last PVE run someone does.

Sparton, would you be able to confirm this if possible?

Good observation, and that would make sense, didn't do my dailies/secrets yesterday and maybe the night before. You might have just solved one of their bugs :)

[Sparton_LOTB]

And I need to add, just got a rare G/A soul from Kingdom of the Sands normal secret. Don't remember the last time that happened!

Yeah, Rare Souls, Rare Gun/Assassin Souls, and even Skill Shards are all possible rewards from every secret location. They're just damn rare is all.


Side note: Jofer, I noticed that it said you were inactive for 2 days on the trooper list yesterday. Considering how you were actively PVPing like the terminator you are, this led me to theorize that maybe the trooper list only shows activity based on the last PVE run someone does.

Sparton, would you be able to confirm this if possible?

Yeah, that's actually something that's been bothering me for a while. I've never been 100% sure if it was inaccurate or not, but what you and Jofer are describing means that whatever is tracking that is probably looking for some kind of action that not necessarily everyone will do each time they play the game. I'll make sure to pass that to the team when I'm back in the office on Monday.

[Jofer16]

I fully agree with your analysis, man. Hell, people were even rightly predicting that if the Prisoner got neutered via nerfs and the blue bat/DD remained untouched, that the blue bat/DD would become the next OP toon. You can't nerf one of those two without nerfing the other.

Side note: Jofer, I noticed that it said you were inactive for 2 days on the trooper list yesterday. Considering how you were actively PVPing like the terminator you are, this led me to theorize that maybe the trooper list only shows activity based on the last PVE run someone does.

Sparton, would you be able to confirm this if possible?

Wanted to add, also found Blue Bat is waaaay more dangerous than DD. Siege is tough enough, but if you're not prepared Blue Bats other moves like the AOE coupled with not being able to have void shields is like being tossed into the meat grinder.

I feel sorry for people with no Prisoner against him. I've made sure to purchase every talisman available from the arena store so far, so can manage, but there's really zero counters for people that cant stack them to the sky. Blue Bat > Prisoner in a vacuum by a long shot.

[Tritium]

Yeah, that's actually something that's been bothering me for a while. I've never been 100% sure if it was inaccurate or not, but what you and Jofer are describing means that whatever is tracking that is probably looking for some kind of action that not necessarily everyone will do each time they play the game. I'll make sure to pass that to the team when I'm back in the office on Monday.

Awesome! This will help move us one step closer to solving the Trooper activity issue.


Wanted to add, also found Blue Bat is waaaay more dangerous than DD. Siege is tough enough, but if you're not prepared Blue Bats other moves like the AOE coupled with not being able to have void shields is like being tossed into the meat grinder.

I feel sorry for people with no Prisoner against him. I've made sure to purchase every talisman available from the arena store so far, so can manage, but there's really zero counters for people that cant stack them to the sky. Blue Bat > Prisoner in a vacuum by a long shot.

Yeah man, blue bat teams sometimes make me want to chuck my phone out the window. It can be so frustrating watching helplessly as your team gets mutilated. Now I have to disconnect my emotions before PVPing so I don't blow up. :p Either that, or I need to do more pull-ups & push-ups after PVPing for a bit to de-stress haha.

[Jofer16]

Yeah, Rare Souls, Rare Gun/Assassin Souls, and even Skill Shards are all possible rewards from every secret location. They're just damn rare is all.

And 3 more rare souls! 1 in each of the underworld secrets, my lucky day :)

Edit: and after reset ANOTHER G/A soul, wow.

[Silentknight]

Wanted to add, also found Blue Bat is waaaay more dangerous than DD. Siege is tough enough, but if you're not prepared Blue Bats other moves like the AOE coupled with not being able to have void shields is like being tossed into the meat grinder.

I feel sorry for people with no Prisoner against him. I've made sure to purchase every talisman available from the arena store so far, so can manage, but there's really zero counters for people that cant stack them to the sky. Blue Bat > Prisoner in a vacuum by a long shot.

Thus all the 'prisoner nerf is great but dont touch the AoP' posts. They think we're stupid...apparently some of us are

[HomemLivre]

Thus all the 'prisoner nerf is great but dont touch the AoP' posts. They think we're stupid...apparently some of us are

Agreed with you, I'm out of discussion about this patch. But I miss what you said, I don't even remember someone complaining about the AoP nerf, the only Angel that people (including me) complained about the nerf was the AoF.

Good luck in the arena for all of you guys.

Cheers

[Nicko]

Ding ding ding! Winner! This was my biggest finding through all this, and I was shocked. Now that the meta has shifted to Talismans being more essential than passives, Blue Bat is the truely OP toon, Prisoner not in the slightest. I could only think up 1 team build to do well, you have to stack immunity like crazy, toons like Red Pyro that have a 3 round buff.

I think most of the complaints from prisoner must come from Blue Bat users who don't realize this. He's the only easy counter where Prisoner has tons of possible teams that will take him down. So to Blue Bat users, I can see why they say this, he takes away that OP factor for them.

Now I do agree Prisoner dumbs the game down killing passives, but he's not even close to OP. He could use an adjustment to open the game up more but if this is coupled with any sort of nerf/overall power reduction, I'll be upset. Simply because it means the devs are giving into the mob.

Change his mechanics to open up more passives and create diversity, don't make him weaker. I've had zero issues facing Prisoner while I've not been using him and my point accumulation speed hasn't changed much. In some cases it's gotten even faster because I swapped him out for more overall damage so I'm killing stuff faster.

And I need to add, just got a rare G/A soul from Kingdom of the Sands normal secret. Don't remember the last time that happened!

Interesting observation about immunity. I was in Underworld taking on Blue Bats and brought my Green Droid since I know nerfs are coming. Wanted to test the waters. His immunity from talismans gets squashed - and then he had to cast his shield every turn because the duration of his shield was cut in half. Red Pyro doesn't have a shield - but his immunity certainly looks like a better bet because you can get a couple rounds out if it.

Contrary to the complaining, I definitely don't think the Blue Bat is dead with the upcoming nerf. Once second round hits - with likely little damage to either side thanks to Troll shields and Shell talismans - he'll be a real pain to face

[HomemLivre]

Contrary to the complaining, I definitely don't think the Blue Bat is dead with the upcoming nerf. Once second round hits - with likely little damage to either side thanks to Troll shields and Shell talismans - he'll be a real pain to face

Agreed with you, some of the new shilds to, like the thorns, cyclone and even the void. With some variety of toons and mix on damage types (not only true) maybe this shields will be a little hard to face.

[Silentknight]

I really, really like this new changes! FINALLY the Prisoner gets his deserved nerf, its almost hard to believe in that hahaha!
Prisoner fanboys will be a little pissed, but hey, we will finally get a mixed pvp with many more toons!
Visions Eddie, you guys know that Im waiting to use him for so long, so my thx again, you devs rocks in this future update!
The only thing I really dislike here is the change on Siege, begin to work only in the second turn puts the AoP on the trash when the decisive actions are taken in the first turn.

Anyway I appreciate this update, thanks Kaz and Sparton.

Just at 1st glance

[HomemLivre]

Just at 1st glance

Come on mate, did you just not read the other posts of mine after this one?

That was just my first impression on the new patch.
As I said, I think about new strategies and the whole scenario of the patch, all of the nerfs and buffs are only to bring more balance to the PvP. My mind was changed a little days after that. ;)

[HomemLivre]

Agreed with you, some of the new shilds to, like the thorns, cyclone and even the void. With some variety of toons and mix on damage types (not only true) maybe this shields will be a little hard to face.

Better reply this to, maybe you missed it.

Its not possible to make a healthy discussion if you ressurect a first impression of the patch to just trying to prove something thats not true right now.
If anyone else say what you said and continue to defend that I agree with you.

We already make some great discussions here, please don't do what you did right now.

Cumps.

EDIT: another thing that I said to is that the prisoner will be revised so perhaps all the patch need to be revised to, even the nerfs like the AoP and buffs in other toons. IMO all of the changes were made to balance all the chars togheter and build a new scenario for pvp. Well, we dont know how the prisoner will work, so we will need to wait and see. If nothing changes maybe something need to change again and again. If Siege and the DD new passive need to be changed again, its ok to.

EDIT 2: I said in my first impression that the decisive actions are taken in the first turn and I still think that it is in the current PvP scenario, but with all of this changes looks like this will change to and the battles will take a little long, what gives room for the future AoP.

[Jofer16]

Close battle for 5th between Ringe666 and Bodo. Should be fun to watch. Think ill place my bets on Ringe666, not sure what a Bodo is haha

Edit: and Scott, if you're gonna use Samauri like me, you need to put on the turbo boosters and crack the top 10, so close, only a 200 point gap.

[HomemLivre]

Close battle for 5th between Ringe666 and Bodo. Should be fun to watch. Think ill place my bets on Ringe666, not sure what a Bodo is haha

I think Ringe will get it to, he attacked me about 20 times in the last 2 days, hes trying hard in here hahaha

[Ringe666-7406]

I think Ringe will get it to, he attacked me about 20 times in the last 2 days, hes trying hard in here hahaha

Thanks for the cheering guys, but I hardly doubt it will happen without The Beloved One. Homem , so sorry but the lists keep being the same... You have no idea how much I'd like to skip time like yours :D But this week I had lot less attacks and thought why not try it, not like I'm spending my ironite on anything else. I probably kicked in too late, used one refill on Sunday and Monday, and only two on Tuesday and Wednesday...

[Jofer16]

This movie just came up on auto in Netflix. Might have to be my new arena grinding theme song haha


https://youtu.be/EAwWPadFsOA

[HomemLivre]

Thanks for the cheering guys, but I hardly doubt it will happen without The Beloved One. Homem , so sorry but the lists keep being the same... You have no idea how much I'd like to skip time like yours :D But this week I had lot less attacks and thought why not try it, not like I'm spending my ironite on anything else. I probably kicked in too late, used one refill on Sunday and Monday, and only two on Tuesday and Wednesday...

Hahaha, Its ok! Attack me how much times you want to! You can do it without the beloved!
Im still cheering on you! Rock the 10th!

[Tritium]

This movie just came up on auto in Netflix. Might have to be my new arena grinding theme song haha


https://youtu.be/EAwWPadFsOA

Hahaha hell yeahhh man! Old school MK is great.

[Jofer16]

Hahaha hell yeahhh man! Old school MK is great.

I used to pump so many quarters into MK2 haha.

LotB should make a non Eddie toon inspired by Baraka, man that dude was bad ass. Or they should have just implanted Samuari Eddies swords into his arms Wolverine style, except in place of his hands and then have him scissor the enemy to death in a flurry of flying blood haha

And this Scorpion fight song was good too. Love me some Fear Factory. Not sure if you've listened to them but they have some mean ass songs:


https://youtu.be/RKbFg0VSgFA

[Jofer16]

Thanks for the cheering guys, but I hardly doubt it will happen without The Beloved One. Homem , so sorry but the lists keep being the same... You have no idea how much I'd like to skip time like yours :D But this week I had lot less attacks and thought why not try it, not like I'm spending my ironite on anything else. I probably kicked in too late, used one refill on Sunday and Monday, and only two on Tuesday and Wednesday...

He takes the lead! God speed down the homestretch.

Edit: and Silent on the razors edge of 25th, good luck bud!

[Silentknight]

He takes the lead! God speed down the homestretch.

Edit: and Silent on the razors edge of 25th, good luck bud!

Thx,tight 1...gotta go!!!

[Jofer16]

Thx,tight 1...gotta go!!!

Now I'm rooting for EducatedFool, gogogo

[Silentknight]

Thx,tight 1...gotta go!!!

100 points,10 min. Glad Enti ain't around

[Ringe666-7406]

He takes the lead! God speed down the homestretch.

Thanks man, thanks all for cheering... Seems like he was smarter than me and decided it's not worthy :D I am the one who couldn't help myself :D

[Ringe666-7406]

Now I'm rooting for EducatedFool, gogogo

I hope TEF will make it too... He was on my lists all day -.-

[osiris0000]

I used to pump so many quarters into MK2 haha.

LotB should make a non Eddie toon inspired by Baraka, man that dude was bad ass. Or they should have just implanted Samuari Eddies swords into his arms Wolverine style, except in place of his hands and then have him scissor the enemy to death in a flurry of flying blood haha

And this Scorpion fight song was good too. Love me some Fear Factory. Not sure if you've listened to them but they have some mean ass songs:



MK is legendary! I was competing with Raiden at MK9's online arena, it was pretty intense. I wonder if you were competing there also :cool:

It would be cool to see some MK inspired toons. But however, i think Corrupt General reminds me Raiden with his look - shining eyes and posture.
On this video he is quite badass (like no more bullshit) and the music starts at 1:11 is very strong! Shame that it is too short and i cannot find the full version.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjyRiIM5PWo

[Silentknight]

Come on mate, did you just not read the other posts of mine after this one?

That was just my first impression on the new patch.
As I said, I think about new strategies and the whole scenario of the patch, all of the nerfs and buffs are only to bring more balance to the PvP. My mind was changed a little days after that. ;)

Actually I did have an explanation but was a little preoccupied & seeing as how u decided to attack me in the last 5 min. of a tight race with absolutely nothing to gain... A trooper even! Should i say ex-trooper

[HomemLivre]

Actually I did have an explanation but was a little preoccupied & seeing as how u decided to attack me in the last 5 min. of a tight race with absolutely nothing to gain... A trooper even! Should i say ex-trooper

Wow, I really feel bad about it as I said on the pm that I sent you. I didn't know you were running for the 25th as I said to.
Glad you make it and still feeling bad about almost drive you out of that rank.

[Jofer16]

Wow, I really feel bad about it as I said on the pm that I sent you. I didn't know you were running for the 25th as I said to.
Glad you make it and still feeling bad about almost drive you out of that rank.

I'm sure he'll understand, but I might have took your trooper spot haha

And I was gonna take it easy this week but saw people were letting Skydoodle get an early lead so I had to blast up quick. Come on guys :)


https://youtu.be/9D-QD_HIfjA

[Jofer16]

MK is legendary! I was competing with Raiden at MK9's online arena, it was pretty intense. I wonder if you were competing there also :cool:

It would be cool to see some MK inspired toons. But however, i think Corrupt General reminds me Raiden with his look - shining eyes and posture.
On this video he is quite badass (like no more bullshit) and the music starts at 1:11 is very strong! Shame that it is too short and i cannot find the full version.


Damn that is badass, just getting around to watching it. Reminds me of diablo 3 cut scenes for some reason. Also this MK jam, just makes me want to rip through arena, I promise this is my last MK video. I keep hijacking threads by accident lol


https://youtu.be/qI-Takf76RY

[Silentknight]

Wow, I really feel bad about it as I said on the pm that I sent you. I didn't know you were running for the 25th as I said to.
Glad you make it and still feeling bad about almost drive you out of that rank.

What's done is done. In the future I would pay a little more attention to your troopers ranks,especially in the last hour,let alone the last 5 min. Partially my own fault for hanging around tier markers,won't happen again. Why anyone would use up their SoW at the end to gain nothing is beyond me. Makes alot more sense to wait til after reset & use them to climb. Guess we all have different strategies.
Also this has nothing to do with prisoner nerf or people's opinion on the subject. If that was the case Gmac,slauki,Tom,etc. would have been gone long ago. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion!

[angelkelly]

What's done is done. In the future I would pay a little more attention to your troopers ranks,especially in the last hour,let alone the last 5 min. Partially my own fault for hanging around tier markers,won't happen again. Why anyone would use up their SoW at the end to gain nothing is beyond me. Makes alot more sense to wait til after reset & use them to climb.

Why do you care so much if someone attacked you.Isn't that the whole point of the arena. Like who cares if he attacked you at the last minute. Like hell i applaud him for doing so. No one is safe, trooper or not. Learn how to be more like your friend jofer. Haha no one can stop him nor do he ever complain about being attack. *Tip* Stop complaining, grind harder, and take notes. If you cant then simply stop playing. That's what I do......

[Silentknight]

Why do you care so much if someone attacked you.Isn't that the whole point of the arena. Like who cares if he attacked you at the last minute. Like hell i applaud him for doing so. No one is safe, trooper or not. Learn how to be more like your friend jofer. Haha no one can stop him nor do he ever complain about being attack. *Tip* Stop complaining, grind harder, and take notes. If you cant then simply stop playing. That's what I do......
Lmao!!! U r the last person who should be talking about complaining! Complain & insult is what u do, that's y ur older posts were deleted.
Could care less about # of attacks or who attacks me but when it's done in last minutes with nothing to gain...
There's a certain amount of loyalty between troopers/friends,something u obviously know nothing about!
As far as ur tips...take ur own advice. Every week including beta I've been #4-#25 w/o spending any extra ironite,including 2 weeks w/o using Lefty so I don't think I need any of ur 'advice'.

[Tritium]

Could care less about # of attacks or who attacks me but when it's done in last minutes with nothing to gain...
There's a certain amount of loyalty between troopers/friends

I can agree here. My trooper, Ian popped up on my last list with ~10 minutes until reset. I saw that his point total put him just barely into the top 100, and therefore made sure not to hit him. It's just what troopers do. If you see a trooper near a threshold for a higher reward tier on your list, you avoid attacking them out of respect and loyalty, as you'd want them to do the same for you.

[Silentknight]

I can agree here. My trooper, Ian popped up on my last list with ~10 minutes until reset. I saw that his point total put him just barely into the top 100, and therefore made sure not to hit him. It's just what troopers do. If you see a trooper near a threshold for a higher reward tier on your list, you avoid attacking them out of respect and loyalty, as you'd want them to do the same for you.

Most do,gotta remember who ur dealing with!

[Ian]

I can agree here. My trooper, Ian popped up on my last list with ~10 minutes until reset. I saw that his point total put him just barely into the top 100, and therefore made sure not to hit him. It's just what troopers do. If you see a trooper near a threshold for a higher reward tier on your list, you avoid attacking them out of respect and loyalty, as you'd want them to do the same for you.

Thanks man, last week was my best result and I am very grateful for you not giving me a smacking lol. Saw a few of my troopers on my attack list including you and I never attacked any unless they popped up in my defence list first - even then I would think twice before revenging: A good trooper is worth much more than some iron coins and VP.

[angelkelly]

Lmao!!! U r the last person who should be talking about complaining! Complain & insult is what u do, that's y ur older posts were deleted.
Could care less about # of attacks or who attacks me but when it's done in last minutes with nothing to gain...
There's a certain amount of loyalty between troopers/friends,something u obviously know nothing about!
As far as ur tips...take ur own advice. Every week including beta I've been #4-#25 w/o spending any extra ironite,including 2 weeks w/o using Lefty so I don't think I need any of ur 'advice'.

When I said take notes I mean by your friend jofer. And FYI I deleted my post willingly on my own. And why would I need to take my own advice. When I'm not the one complaining. And yes, i would have to admit i did have my bad days but than again who don't.

Also you speak about loyalty. What is loyalty really? Letting a few people get laid off at their jobs. Or letting a few people starve to death and by any means I could go on forever. But then again you seem to be one of those people, who is just to caught up in their selves to no the difference. Yet I wonder why Jofer didn't let Nicko take the lead for 1st last week or the week before it. Yet they are friends and "loyalty" didnt play a role in that equation.

Overall this is a competition and whether you are a trooper of mind, friend, or anything else. Be warn this is just a contest. Nothing more or less.

Edit: I seen your post tritium. And would I care if a trooper of mind attack me. No, simply because this is a "COMPETITION". And I don't need any special privileges or handouts from anyone. Regardless of who they are...

[Lord Schmeb]

Actually I did have an explanation but was a little preoccupied & seeing as how u decided to attack me in the last 5 min. of a tight race with absolutely nothing to gain... A trooper even! Should i say ex-trooper

Oh man, this might be the lamest shit I've read on these forums. Trooper loyalty? Seriously? Wow.

I clear my list, regardless of who's on it, and expect nothing less from anyone else. If I can't gain a rank/tier/reward without my e-friends taking it easy on me, then I may as well remove my balls and call it a day. I repeat, my Troopers better attack my ass non-stop, because I'm coming for you just as hard. When the smoke clears, we'll go grind GoD or something equally mundane, but the gloves are off in the arena.

Off topic, I went to bed on Friday at rank 46. $29.99 and 300 or so ironite later, I almost didn't crack 100. I don't know what was up, but my Defense that was above 20% all week plummeted, and every team with a blue bat ate my lunch (along with pretty much every other team, now that I think about it). I would've been better off just staying out on Saturday, which is sad.

[Tritium]

Edit: I seen your post tritium. And would I care if a trooper of mind attack me. No, simply because this is a "COMPETITION". And I don't need any special privileges or handouts from anyone. Regardless of who they are...

Considering how you ranted and attacked other players for quite a while in an old PVP thread, I highly doubt what you've said here. I'll call your bluff right now and say that you'd likely be pretty pissed if a trooper of yours knocked you out of 5th place at the last minute. I understand the whole "it's a competition" argument, but you haven't shown any kind of self-control on the forums here before to make me think otherwise.

Hell, I'd be rather frustrated if a normal, non-trooper player knocked me out of 5th at last minute (I'm HIGHLY competitive in nature and love winning). Understandably, I'd be a little bit more incensed if it was a trooper of mine from the forums (the non-forum troopers I can't bond with at all, so it's hard to connect with them beyond how long they've been on my list). This is my opinion, but it seems that I'm not the only one who thinks this way. I'll continue to use my rule of not attacking troopers during the last minutes of the PVP week before reset, but obviously they're fair game throughout the week!

[Silentknight]

Oh man, this might be the lamest shit I've read on these forums. Trooper loyalty? Seriously? Wow.

I clear my list, regardless of who's on it, and expect nothing less from anyone else. If I can't gain a rank/tier/reward without my e-friends taking it easy on me, then I may as well remove my balls and call it a day. I repeat, my Troopers better attack my ass non-stop, because I'm coming for you just as hard. When the smoke clears, we'll go grind GoD or something equally mundane, but the gloves are off in the arena.

Off topic, I went to bed on Friday at rank 46. $29.99 and 300 or so ironite later, I almost didn't crack 100. I don't know what was up, but my Defense that was above 20% all week plummeted, and every team with a blue bat ate my lunch (along with pretty much every other team, now that I think about it). I would've been better off just staying out on Saturday, which is sad.

Big difference between clearing list and attacking with nothing to gain. Don't expect anyone,trooper or not,to take it ez on me. Also shared some of the responsibility due to hanging around tier markers. As far as loyalty goes, I would say ur in the minority, could be wrong tho

[slauki]

Big difference between clearing list and attacking with nothing to gain. Don't expect anyone,trooper or not,to take it ez on me. Also shared some of the responsibility due to hanging around tier markers. As far as loyalty goes, I would say ur in the minority, could be wrong tho

i support the competition argument here, we are all on our own, out there in the arena. and actually you have something to gain in the last minutes. because your rank is so high you will gain much more coins before the reset. if you plan to take a break next week it's better to burn all sow before the reset.

and i really think it's way too much to demand of the troopers to check the stats and the rank of the target they are attacking. don't have the time nor the motivation to do that and i understand everyone who doesn't look at the rankings before attacking me. if someones on my list and i can beat him, bad luck, if i'm on someones list who can beat me bad luck for me :-) . Only thing i try is not to hit the same guys over and over again, but since the lists are still too narrow it's hard to do sometimes.

i think it's our responsibility if we don't wanna be pushed out of the ranks not the responsability of others.

[angelkelly]

Considering how you ranted and attacked other players for quite a while in an old PVP thread, I highly doubt what you've said here. I'll call your bluff right now and say that you'd likely be pretty pissed if a trooper of yours knocked you out of 5th place at the last minute. I understand the whole "it's a competition" argument, but you haven't shown any kind of self-control on the forums here before to make me think otherwise.

Honestly i wouldn't care like I stated before. It's call being "unattached". Which is something you will learn once you get over this game. And again I have admitted I went off in this forum at a select few.
But than again that was at a time, where I care so much about this game. Now at this very moment I could care less what happens.

There is too many bugs,server error, and overall issues that has kept me from loving this game like I once did before.

Bring on the attacks :):o;)

[Silentknight]

i support the competition argument here, we are all on our own, out there in the arena. and actually you have something to gain in the last minutes. because your rank is so high you will gain much more coins before the reset. if you plan to take a break next week it's better to burn all sow before the reset.

and i really think it's way too much to demand of the troopers to check the stats and the rank of the target they are attacking. don't have the time nor the motivation to do that and i understand everyone who doesn't look at the rankings before attacking me. if someones on my list and i can beat him, bad luck, if i'm on someones list who can beat me bad luck for me :-) . Only thing i try is not to hit the same guys over and over again, but since the lists are still too narrow it's hard to do sometimes.

i think it's our responsibility if we don't wanna be pushed out of the ranks not the responsability of others.

Don't remember exact points but the difference between 2100 & 1900 for iron coins is minimal. Also if u have time to sit & yak in the forum,u have time to check ranks. I could care less where I finish, sit around tier ranks for entertainment purposes,think everyone enjoys a close race. Done with this shit! 1st thing I said was what's done is done. Nice to know where everyone stands tho!

[osiris0000]

Don't remember exact points but the difference between 2100 & 1900 for iron coins is minimal. Also if u have time to sit & yak in the forum,u have time to check ranks. I could care less where I finish, sit around tier ranks for entertainment purposes,think everyone enjoys a close race. Done with this shit! 1st thing I said was what's done is done. Nice to know where everyone stands tho!

Well, at first i can't call myself super competitive at PVP nowadays. But since i follow the thread and saw this long discussion, i can drop my 2 cents too.

I see your point Silentknight, it is some kind of unwritten rule. Or i can name it as "Trooper ethic", i understand it. And i believe most of us have that "Blood Brother" feeling with troopers. It is easy to mix that feelings when facing versus Troopers at PVP. Why? Because everyone have different kind of play-styles and Trooper ethics. And UNLESS you tell your troopers what is your expectation from them, this is what can happen... :



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_O1hM-k3aUY


If i was "concerned" about how my troopers should behave at PVP, i would let them know from the start or somehow- so i don't get "disappointed" with them.

Basically, i agree with slauki.


i think it's our responsibility if we don't wanna be pushed out of the ranks not the responsability of others.

[CanyptianFit]

Either way, both sides are right, just depends on what you care or don't care about.

Reminds me of a Facebook game mafia wars, and you could create different mafias and join them and protect one another.

Maybe for those that care they can create "Bands" and be troopers with them and close to the reset of PVP, they would watch out for one another. Nothing wrong with that.

Personally I agree with both sides; but by and large I wouldn't attack a fellow trooper if they are on the edge, that's just me. At the same time, if I'm on a roll with a good streak going, sans prisoner, I'm clearing my list, unless my rank isn't critical.

To each his own...k, lets setup band boards!

[Silentknight]

Just 1 final thot & as with everything I post it is all imo. Everyone's got 1!
U guys/girls...there really should be an icon in here for sex! I'm sure there's a few girls in here that get called man, buddy,etc. all to often...Anyways
U 'people' brought up competition so...
In no other competition,sports as an example do teams/players show each other everything about their team. NF that's for you,wtf!
But as far as the forum,opposing teams/players do not share strategies & teammates,I.E. troopers help each other out! Not even help, u don't fu<K ur troopers! So make up ur mind...competition or not? 1/2 the problem is there's no set rules. Everyone's gunna play different,same with opinions. So there's always gunna be 'debates'. The only ones treating this as a competition are Nicko,Jofer & probably Alex,FallenAngel,poor,poor FallenAngel!, don't know those 2 but am proud to say all 4 are troopers. Jofer especially,competitively,by not sharing stats,although most 'competitions', stats are readily available. I only disagree with sharing stats cuz that's the ONLY secret!
I've made it pretty clear I'm here for fun only,but I am super competitive,that's why I hang around the rank tiers,entertainment & competition.
As far as Prisoner nerf, besides the fact that I love the fact he puts you at another level & let's face it, he's very beatable, it's the skill shards. I wouldn't even remove mine, I want em all sharded, but for anyone else that has put time,effort & money into this game...it's like NF is saying FU! So I'm kinda looking out for everyone else. Besides when they nerfed the freeze talismans I was pissed but my defense skyrocketed after,who knew I had a good team under all those talismans. 43% defense,I think,tops in forum,not the world probably & also not bragging but it does prove I know what I'm talking about when it comes to beating 'Lefty', cuz my d has dropped to 13%...same team.
Cherrypicking...funny thing,originally I thought it meant attacking top teams cuz to me cherrypicking is sitting in front of the net. Hockey! Didn't mean to offend anyone with the coward comment but if I don't attack top teams...that's how I feel. Plus I'll take my 85-93% of 20 points over 99% of 12 points any day,basic math! Especially when 70-80% of revenges are losses for more points!!! Actually thot that might be the reason for top guys not getting attacked. Too much cherrypicking is opening up a huge gap on top 5 or so,but Gmac's disproving that theory...still pretty early tho so we'll see.
HomemLivre, I apologize,maybe I jumped the gun but I wear my heart on my sleeve. 1st 3 day inactive ur back in, if u even want back in now u know how I am,lmao! Up 2 u.
Phew, longest one yet! As I said,everything is always imo,so have at it!
Peace Boys & Girls (& I can say that cuz I guarantee u I'm one of the oldest in here,lmao!)
L8r

[mjmxiii]

LMFAO!! I try not to attack anyone lol... fuckin PvP pitting player vs player and trooper vs trooper lol... how dare they! 😂

Man... you guys better attack the living shit out of me every goddamn chance you get! Trooper or not! Whether I'm 1st place or last!

I appreciate your attacks! Be good to each other and use profanity sometimes lol...

Cheers fuckers! 😆

[Silentknight]

LMFAO!! I try not to attack anyone lol... fuckin PvP pitting player vs player and trooper vs trooper lol... how dare they! 😂

Man... you guys better attack the living shit out of me every goddamn chance you get! Trooper or not! Whether I'm 1st place or last!

I appreciate your attacks! Be good to each other and use profanity sometimes lol...

Cheers fuckers! 😆
Entertaining isnt it!

[Liebhild]

Because the devs are ignoring my thread about probability, I ask here:

Are you manipulating the probability of effects, coin toss etc or are they really random?

[BonFire]

I'm middling at best, even with an OP Prisoner as everyone seems to think, so I rarely see a trooper. But when I do, I'm definitely gonna test the waters, and retest when the revenge hits. Though, I have once encountered someone with the exact same name as a trooper, but it wasn't them, because my trooper was 500 points above me, and this one was 200 below.

Oh, something that annoys me, but when you get the revenge list and you have someone who has attacked you 3 times, but you can only revenge twice. I'm not looking for best out of 5, give me the full 6.

[Ian]

LMFAO!! I try not to attack anyone lol... fuckin PvP pitting player vs player and trooper vs trooper lol... how dare they! 😂

Man... you guys better attack the living shit out of me every goddamn chance you get! Trooper or not! Whether I'm 1st place or last!

I appreciate your attacks! Be good to each other and use profanity sometimes lol...

Cheers fuckers! 😆

Well, when you put it like that, I am going to attack you every chance I get.

I bet your defence will go first and hold too...damn RNG

[Mizrael]

It's funny to see you talking about some trooper loyalty,Silentknight.

You were one of 6 troopers who dropped me without blinking (after months of sending badges every day) when the xmass update chose me as the lucky "you won't be able to log in until you sort it out with the customer support team" one (plus my father died the next day,so i had to travel home for 24h and 24h back,but that's irrelevant). i'm sure i even mentioned it here on the forum (ask Slauki). Where's the loyalty in that?...

I bet you only used Homemlivres' attack as an excuse to get a free slot for Jofer, since you like to hang out with the big boys...

[Jofer16]

It's funny to see you talking about some trooper loyalty,Silentknight.

You were one of 6 troopers who dropped me without blinking (after months of sending badges every day) when the xmass update chose me as the lucky "you won't be able to log in until you sort it out with the customer support team" one (plus my father died the next day,so i had to travel home for 24h and 24h back,but that's irrelevant). i'm sure i even mentioned it here on the forum (ask Slauki). Where's the loyalty in that?...

I bet you only used Homemlivres' attack as an excuse to get a free slot for Jofer, since you like to hang out with the big boys...

Shots fired! lol. Interested to see what really happened minus assumptions.

And here's my take on all the loyalty talk, I'll be loyal, until someone gives me a reason not to be :) Theres a few shady things I've picked up on by people I haven't directly called out. I remember all and act accordingly.

"I never fucked anybody over in my life who didn't have it coming to them. You got that? All I have in this world is my balls and my word and I don't break them for no one."

Man, I'm on a scarface kick lately.

[mjmxiii]

Well, when you put it like that, I am going to attack you every chance I get.

I bet your defence will go first and hold too...damn RNG

Do it Ian, I won't take it personal or hit you back brother. My defense is not that great man. I'm shocked when it holds lol.. I only play PvP for the iron coins anyway. No immunity or shell talismans, not worried about the ranker. Besides, that's what my defense is there for!

[gmac]

I personally attack troopers 100% of the time if I have to clear my list.

Also If they are up in the rankings I revenge for the points sometimes.

I don't take if personally when I got attacked of course.

But Saturday once I think I'm save I stop attacking guys that are in close battles.

And made mistakes myself, once I attacked The Educated Fool as I did not notice he was in a close battle. I apologized for it.

And he is not a trooper, but a forum member that contributes here, and that has become to me more important than troopers actually.

Most of my troopers are not forum members I think.

[mjmxiii]

Man, I'm on a scarface kick lately.

"Sanitation? I told you to tell 'em that you was in a sanitarium, not sanitation, sanitarium.."

That's my scarface quote lol

[Jofer16]

"Sanitation? I told you to tell 'em that you was in a sanitarium, not sanitation, sanitarium.."

That's my scarface quote lol

lol! I can hear the dudes accent when I read this, cracked me up.

[Jofer16]

I personally attack troopers 100% of the time if I have to clear my list.

Also If they are up in the rankings I revenge for the points sometimes.

I don't take if personally when I got attacked of course.

But Saturday once I think I'm save I stop attacking guys that are in close battles.

And made mistakes myself, once I attacked The Educated Fool as I did not notice he was in a close battle. I apologized for it.

And he is not a trooper, but a forum member that contributes here, and that has become to me more important than troopers actually.

Most of my troopers are not forum members I think.

Same here, I can't take the time to check rankings between each attacks, but I'll also stop as well if nobodies chasing me and have a decent enough buffer, to not F anyone up in their grind. I'd say if you don't want to be bumped from a spot make sure you get high enough so it's not out of your control, couple hundred at least. Then no worries. People can only bump you out if you let them :)

[Silentknight]

It's funny to see you talking about some trooper loyalty,Silentknight.

You were one of 6 troopers who dropped me without blinking (after months of sending badges every day) when the xmass update chose me as the lucky "you won't be able to log in until you sort it out with the customer support team" one (plus my father died the next day,so i had to travel home for 24h and 24h back,but that's irrelevant). i'm sure i even mentioned it here on the forum (ask Slauki). Where's the loyalty in that?...

I bet you only used Homemlivres' attack as an excuse to get a free slot for Jofer, since you like to hang out with the big boys...

Lmao,get over it!
1-was I even in forum then?
2-don't keep track of who sends badges,go by inactivity
3-told everyone 2 days inactivity,which I extended to 3.
4-trying to get all troopers in forum cuz 2 & 3 r bugged
5-started a thread to avoid this,even a waiting list
6-apologized,offered 2x to take u back,both times u passed,there won't be a 3rd
7-yeah,that's why I offered HomemLivre his spot back 1st chance???
8-wtf else do u expect me to do!!!
Think that's enuf? I do!
The 'big boys' are mostly my 'friends', check my profile...doesn't get much better than that! As I've told most of em...as in life,don't want alot of friends, just good ones! And that,my friend,is the cream of the crop!!! Most solid group of guys u'll ever 'meet'! Jofer & I been waiting for weeks 2 hook up. Was his 1st friend,only offered cuz his profile looked so goddamn lonely,lmao! Lookin better now bud! Plus I like him...he's a great player,as are the rest. But,mostly cuz he's a shit disturbing smart ass and so am I!
Real sorry to hear about ur father!
kkkreg,Perth,haven't forgot bout u 2

[Silentknight]

I personally attack troopers 100% of the time if I have to clear my list.

Also If they are up in the rankings I revenge for the points sometimes.

I don't take if personally when I got attacked of course.

But Saturday once I think I'm save I stop attacking guys that are in close battles.

And made mistakes myself, once I attacked The Educated Fool as I did not notice he was in a close battle. I apologized for it.

And he is not a trooper, but a forum member that contributes here, and that has become to me more important than troopers actually.

Most of my troopers are not forum members I think.

As I said,attack away. Please do,none of u fuckers r on my lists anymore! I'm talking about the last 5 fucking minutes when there's absolutely nothing to gain,except what,2 iron coins cuz ur rank dropped from 21??-1900 at reset...really!
This isn't aimed at u Gmac,just responding to topic. We good!!!
P.S. there u go mjmxiii,some swearing for u,don't think Sparton cares for it tho,lol!

[Liebhild]

I think, that the trooper discussion has nothing to do with the update...

[Silentknight]

I think, that the trooper discussion has nothing to do with the update...


Because the devs are ignoring my thread about probability, I ask here:

Are you manipulating the probability of effects, coin toss etc or are they really random?

Waiting...waiting...nothing!!! Zzzzzzz

[Enti]

100 points,10 min. Glad Enti ain't around

Ahaha that giggled me :D

I went from 52 to 16 in 45 minutes last week. I'll stick to top 25, anything higher does not interest me anymore

[Silentknight]

Ahaha that giggled me :D

I went from 52 to 16 in 45 minutes last week. I'll stick to top 25, anything higher does not interest me anymore
Lol,just for u bud! Congrats on 16th! Same here,top 100 even! Good enuf 4 me. Gotta go...work,ugh!!!

[Jofer16]

[Extreme vitriol]

Ah yes, more delicious tears!

[Enti]

[Extreme vitriol]

Oh what happened, lost a fight in PVP? Must be hard to endure

And here people we see the ultimate creature of evolution in its natural habitat

[Jofer16]

And here people we see the ultimate creature of evolution in its natural habitat

*to be read in National Geographic narrator voice.

Too funny! lol

[PerthEddie]

*to be read in National Geographic narrator voice.

Too funny! lol

I read it in Sir David Attenborough's voice!!

Guess the update is coming later - just got a message saying servers down for maintenance at 10am PST. I will be fast asleep (1am Wednesday here) so don't f**k it up ;) ;) ;) :D

[Bradata]

[Extreme vitriol]

I couldn't understand most of the words you are using! What is "fuck" & "shit" for example! Is that your name? :o

[Ian]

Gotta love some nerdrage

[angelkelly]

[Extreme vitriol]

Wow, great post man. To bad I wasn't confident enough to say it myself.
Lol Nodding Frauds... :)

[Sparton_LOTB]

Holy shit, I 100% accept criticism, but we will not tolerate direct attacks against the team or our players.

Also, reminder to everyone to please not quote explicitly hateful messages or messages that attack other people. We will not tolerate it, here or elsewhere.



And yes, maintenance coming, which will preclude an update if all goes well.

[Jofer16]

Holy shit, I 100% accept criticism, but we will not tolerate direct attacks against the team or our players.

Also, reminder to everyone to please not quote explicitly hateful messages or messages that attack other people. We will not tolerate it, here or elsewhere.



And yes, maintenance coming, which will preclude an update if all goes well.

"Extreme Vitriol" - love the wordplay haha

And sorry about quoting it, noted for the future.

Glad I got a screenshot of that epic post, gonna add it to the trophy case!

[mjmxiii]

Was that the first AND last post by BruceRcR? 😆 got it saved in an email.... Sparton had to swing the forum NerF Bat lol!

[Nine]

Hey Sparton, glad to hear the update might be near - which also means this might be too late for this time, but still some things I noticed:

The revenge passive doesn't seem to work in the arena. I encountered multiple New Born of the Light - both, Assassin and Warrior - and they never countered an attack.

Armor penetration from Pierce Talismans don't seem to work if the enemy has its defense raised - might not be limited to Talismans but its hard to test.

Bleed is the only DoT that does not stack at the moment, is that intended?

Also, is it intended that the Death Dog doesn't buff itself with its damage charge? I actually think it would be to strong otherwise, but I got the feeling that it is bugged similary to frevor.


Some time ago I mentioned that the damage calculation of Vampire Eddie's Mark ability was kinda weird and you said you'd forward the issue. Since he was looked at again for the upcoming update, is there any news on that? Taking him to low level missions makes it clear the initial damage is somehow related to enemy HP, but as I noted last time it's not a pure correlation - of which there shouldn't be any in the first place.

Oh, and the News are still not in the selected language but the language of the device (or something else underlying).


Bet I forgot something...


Also, asides from bug, since I didn't have a chance to mention it: Great that you take a look at Samurai Eddie. I am not sure, however, if damage dealt by him is the main issue. I think the observation that people are not using him might be more due his non-damage dealing abilities - ok, you could argue that these are too relevant because he does not deal enough to make up for them ;) I thought about giving my detailed thoughts on him now, but I might take those to another thread when I have the time. My main issue lies with Soul Sheath that is completely impractical to use, especially in PvP. And with regards to PvP: the whole character cries for a Physical Team while we all know that true damage is the absolute champion in the arena. Also, physical damage dealers tend not to be great defensive supporters and fairly limits your team selection, especially if you are unlucky in regard to certain characters.

My personal reason not using him in PvE is that an efficient farm team with him in the center would require way more red Talismans than I can level at the moment, especially with a lot locked in chars for PvP that are unfit for that role...

[Sparton_LOTB]

The revenge passive doesn't seem to work in the arena. I encountered multiple New Born of the Light - both, Assassin and Warrior - and they never countered an attack.

Revenge and Counter can be a bit flaky, yeah. Known issue, sadly.


Armor penetration from Pierce Talismans don't seem to work if the enemy has its defense raised - might not be limited to Talismans but its hard to test.

Hm, that's curious. I'll pass that along to be checked.


Bleed is the only DoT that does not stack at the moment, is that intended?

Just checked with Kaz, and that's not intended. We'll adjust that for a future future release.


Also, is it intended that the Death Dog doesn't buff itself with its damage charge? I actually think it would be to strong otherwise, but I got the feeling that it is bugged similary to frevor.

Huh, it should work for all allies. We'll investigate that as well.


Some time ago I mentioned that the damage calculation of Vampire Eddie's Mark ability was kinda weird and you said you'd forward the issue. Since he was looked at again for the upcoming update, is there any news on that? Taking him to low level missions makes it clear the initial damage is somehow related to enemy HP, but as I noted last time it's not a pure correlation - of which there shouldn't be any in the first place.

Mark damage is always 12% of the target's Max HP (per Mark), is that maybe what you're seeing? Also, keep in mind that the number on a Mark status effect is the duration, not the amount of marks.


Oh, and the News are still not in the selected language but the language of the device (or something else underlying).

That might be due to a technical limitation with how the feature is set up, but I'll pass that along as well.


Also, asides from bug, since I didn't have a chance to mention it: Great that you take a look at Samurai Eddie. I am not sure, however, if damage dealt by him is the main issue. I think the observation that people are not using him might be more due his non-damage dealing abilities - ok, you could argue that these are too relevant because he does not deal enough to make up for them ;) I thought about giving my detailed thoughts on him now, but I might take those to another thread when I have the time. My main issue lies with Soul Sheath that is completely impractical to use, especially in PvP. And with regards to PvP: the whole character cries for a Physical Team while we all know that true damage is the absolute champion in the arena. Also, physical damage dealers tend not to be great defensive supporters and fairly limits your team selection, especially if you are unlucky in regard to certain characters.

My personal reason not using him in PvE is that an efficient farm team with him in the center would require way more red Talismans than I can level at the moment, especially with a lot locked in chars for PvP that are unfit for that role...

Definitely a lot of good points regarding to Samurai Eddie. There's a lot of the Eddies that seem to have been designed very early in the design process for the game, which means their full kit of skills sometimes doesn't reflect the realities of the current meta, but at the same time, there's also the chance that they will have a unique edge in future content purely because of those differences, so it's something we do consider further adjusting (like we did with Rainmaker Eddie). We felt that, at the very least, he could use an Attack buff to start, though.

I definitely keep an eye out for threads that do deep dives into the characters, even if I rarely comment in them, so do let me know if you do post something for him.



Unrelated, the maintenance will be extended a bit longer due to needing more time for some of our checks. I don't have a timeline yet, but I'll post in this thread when I learn more.

[mjmxiii]

Also, is it intended that the Death Dog doesn't buff itself with its damage charge? I actually think it would be to strong otherwise, but I got the feeling that it is bugged similary to frevor.

Seems right to me when you consider his critical strike procs fairly often and hits for 6-7k+ in both physical and magic 100% of the time. Try striking with him after a buff like Soldier eds war torn or CREs black embrace and it deals even more damage. Seems to proc at higher probability once the effect kicks in but don't mention it... they swing the NerF Bat enough as it is...

[Sparton_LOTB]

The full update patch notes are now live (http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?5241).

You can discuss the update in the update's discussion thread (http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?5242).