April 2017 Tuning Discussion - PRELIMINARY

[Sparton_LOTB]

This is the main post to discuss general changes from the recent update.

You can see the details for the preliminary tuning adjustments in the Game Updates forum post (http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?5152).



We’re changing the Prisoner’s passive.

With that out of the way, let’s summarize the broad changes that we’re looking at doing in the next update:


There are certain characters that have passives which counter a large swath of other characters before combat even starts (Prisoner, Angel of Pain, Death Dog, Warrior Troll)
There are certain characters with extremely high usage rates in PVP, especially within certain combos, which despite some additions and changes continue to dominate and frustrate in the arena (Prisoner, Warrior Troll, Mummy Eddie, etc)
There are many very rare characters which are not used frequently (if at all) not only in PVP but in PVE (Samurai Eddie, Visions Eddie, Warrior Child of the Damned, etc)
Certain defensive status effects can be very problematic to play around or counter (Vanish, damage reduction shields, Void Shields, etc)


We believe that these changes will help to promote a healthier battle environment in the Arena. Previously we have attempted to achieve this balance without touching abilities by adding new Talismans, however this didn’t meaningfully change the kinds of team compositions people used. It became clear that anything new or different we added to counteract certain existing passives and skills would essentially just create a new batch of drastically stronger abilities that would overwhelm the old ones.

In short, we hope this set of changes will achieve 3 things:


Increase the diversity of viable characters in the Arena
Help pave the way for more interesting PVE content set for the coming months
Ensure each of the affected characters can shine within their niche (even if that means some characters won’t be the best answer for almost every encounter)

[Patrice-1201]

Does that mean that Viking will not get immunity for every Call to Arms? That is a huge nerf if that is the case... and with so few of them Biking around, pretty much unnecessary

[Sparton_LOTB]

Does that mean that Viking will not get immunity for every Call to Arms? That is a huge nerf if that is the case... and with so few of them Biking around, pretty much unnecessary

No, the immunity is still guaranteed. He will just cleanse himself instantly before giving himself immunity (in case he has Block Beneficial Effects on him) instead of giving himself a buff which tries to cleanse each turn with immunity.

[Kaz_LOTB]

Does that mean that Viking will not get immunity for every Call to Arms? That is a huge nerf if that is the case... and with so few of them Biking around, pretty much unnecessary

Actually, Viking still gets the Immunity. He just doesn't have the Multi-Turn Cleanse (which he technically doesn't need since he has multi-turn immunity).

-Kaz

[Patrice-1201]

Great thanks for clarifying :-) any chance you guys will tune the RNG on Legendary souls and make them more legendary?

And also. I am still getting attacked a lot more than I am attacking...

[slauki]

man i'm really happy to see this here. will be a revolution i guess and a good and healthy one for the game at all, regardless the screams, that will come now :D.

but guys, if you don't touch grim reaper, who can kill two enemies in in one turn (even green ones) only with his standard ability, than you have the next most OP character everyone will use.
His slash is way to OP and i couldn't see changes in scaling or retriggering. Please test it if you don't belive me, he is out of control and this is very obvious.

I would also like to see some more changes to corrupt gunner rescuer, he is still to powerfull IMO. beside this things will be in order i belive.

SSD taunt % are also way too high, if mummy is reduces SSD should be reduced too.

But one problem will occour. Our defens holds in PVP will sink to 10% or even less. If the pointsystem continues to be that much of a punishment, there won't be a possibility to recover at all for the most players.

But i have to say you did some great changes so far in the last weeks, i love PVP and sacrifice and i'm looking forward to the things that are coming next.

[Demoonchild]

Hey Sparton!! Great to see that you want more variety at PVP... That just great.
I wanted to suggest the team to check Rainmaker HP and DEF/MR, since is clearly a factor that keeps this cool character out of PVP...
In other way, I think that Grim Reaper's Slash, deserves a nerf, I use him a lot but clearly 3x7xxx damage with a chance of repeat even like 4 times is too much!!!
Also, I don't see any change on Sentinel Souless Demon, he's not such a pain in the ass but use to make fights unnecessarily long... Maybe down his taunt % and heal from shields could be a good idea...

[treeb0mbb]

I agree with Donslauki nerf SSD as well as people will just use him instead of mummy. But otherwise very nice changes hopefully this will shake things up a bit more and make PVP and PVE better overall.

[Shifter]

This means I will finally get a prisoner. Death dog on paper seems to be the next must have for pvp. change from siege to isolate looks to be pretty powerful.

[gmac]

Wow!!!

So, just to be clear no siege first round, and then it triggers?

Kaz, could you make an example on Pharaoh Eddie Revive all healing? How much should it heal? Is Visions Healling from equilibrium ok too? Could never figure the base for that extra 10% for each skill shard on both skills.

I would still consider more talisman slot chances, posted a while back to Sparton.

Great job guys, looks good on paper, will level the field. Don't know what will be of our defenses...

[Sparton_LOTB]

any chance you guys will tune the RNG on Legendary souls and make them more legendary?

We do not plan on adjusting the composition of characters from the Legendary Souls at this time.


And also. I am still getting attacked a lot more than I am attacking...

Yeah, it looks like the matchmaking adjustments have worked quite well for some people, but for some others not as much. I think it might just be a matter of tuning the parameters we have, so I'll see if I can work out something better for the next update.


but guys, if you don't touch grim reaper, who can kill two enemies in in one turn (even green ones) only with his standard ability, than you have the next most OP character everyone will use.
His slash is way to OP and i couldn't see changes in scaling or retriggering. Please test it if you don't belive me, he is out of control and this is very obvious.

Grim Reaper Eddie can be a terror, but the crazy damage builds (typically all Holy Talismans) also means that he's really not all that durable, so he still has his answers. Definitely someone we'll be keeping an eye out for.


I would also like to see some more changes to corrupt gunner rescuer, he is still to powerfull IMO. beside this things will be in order i belive.

She (yes, she's a lady) does a lot of great defensive things, but we will have to see how things are after the tuning changes. She is intended to be a character with a lot of defensive utility, but she has plenty of counters that have already been discussed on the forums (permadeath other allies, block beneficial her and allies, remove the shield, etc), and we're adding more options with this tuning update for consistent removal of beneficial effects.


SSD taunt % are also way too high, if mummy is reduces SSD should be reduced too.

Unlike Mummy Eddie, Taunting is basically Sentinel Soulless Demon's only thing he really does (other than trying to stay alive even longer). We feel that the Eddie + Ally combinations of taunt not being as high plus much more consistent Immunity options should make answering strategies relying on taunting (and other CC) much more manageable to execute.


But one problem will occour. Our defens holds in PVP will sink to 10% or even less. If the pointsystem continues to be that much of a punishment, there won't be a possibility to recover at all for the most players.

As I noted previously, the VP of players actively engaging with PVP has gone up on average over the last few weeks (and even those who are still being attacked more than they're attacking seem to be rising more this week), so this is continuing trend as expected.

Additionally, we're hoping that more players will find more interesting defensive setups that could cause their defensive holds to be higher than what they're seeing now... but of course, for someone to win, someone else has to lose.


I wanted to suggest the team to check Rainmaker HP and DEF/MR, since is clearly a factor that keeps this cool character out of PVP...

His DEF/MR is intentionally low to account for the fact that his ATK/MAGIC is unusually high. Unlike many other Eddies, he really does demand a team built around him to maximize his usefulness. Realistically, most of a characters DEF/MR will usually come from talismans anyways, so we'd like to see what his usage is like after these tuning changes goes live.


So, just to be clear no siege first round, and then it triggers?

Specifically no Siege taking effect before either team has taken any action. Siege will still kick in after the enemy team takes a turn.

For example, this makes Siege no longer a counter to the Warrior Troll Shield passive. However, the Warrior Troll Guard All will still be affected (instead of it defending for it's full 2 turns, it'll be reduced at least once and last only 1 turn in most scenarios).


I would still consider more talisman slot chances, posted a while back to Sparton.

It seems like talisman slot changes can be a bit contentious as to what is better, so we will proceed with a bit more caution regarding this, but we can look into it more.

[slauki]

thanks for the prompt answers.


can you please give us more information on the isolate skill from the death dog. removing beneficials from up to 2 chars every turn seems extremly strong. will talismans be affected too?

EDIT: i checked last weeks rank...rank 100 had 2103 points, so prolly 105 got the 2100+ rewards. 145 got the ranks but not the rewards, after almost two months of PVP i cannot see such a big development there, sorry. maybe the new matchmaking will help us, but so far people are not getting their rewards as they should i feel. maybe the overall trends is higher but the crucial 2100 mark is too hard to reach for too many people imo.

[Sparton_LOTB]

can you please give us more information on the isolate skill from the death dog. removing beneficials from up to 2 chars every turn seems extremly strong. will talismans be affected too?

Isolate will pick a random enemy twice, then take away all buffs on the randomly picked character(s).

You'll have less guarantees the more alive characters you're fighting, but it'll remove everything from Heal Shields to Immunity to Charge, regardless of where the positive status effect comes from.


EDIT: i checked last weeks rank...rank 100 had 2103 points, so prolly 105 got the 2100+ rewards. 145 got the ranks but not the rewards, after almost two months of PVP i cannot see such a big development there, sorry. maybe the new matchmaking will help us, but so far people are not getting their rewards as they should i feel. maybe the overall trends is higher but the crucial 2100 mark is too hard to reach for too many people imo.

I'll need to check back with the programmers to review a more extensive record of the leaderboards beyond the top 100 (instead of the peacemeal requests I've done), but in any case it's still something I'm keeping an eye on.


For the prisoner change - will there be an icon to indicate which passives are blocked and which are not each turn? Or do we just get to guess?

There is a new negative status effect that the Prisoner applies for that affect, so you'll see what characters have it and can transfer/cleanse accordingly.

[PerthEddie]

Specifically no Siege taking effect before either team has taken any action. Siege will still kick in after the enemy team takes a turn.

For example, this makes Siege no longer a counter to the Warrior Troll Shield passive. However, the Warrior Troll Guard All will still be affected (instead of it defending for it's full 2 turns, it'll be reduced at least once and last only 1 turn in most scenarios)

Sorry Sparton it is early here and I am not fully awake yet so can you clarify this for me please?

If I go into Arena with my AoP against a Warrior troll and I go 1st his shield is up? If I go 2nd his shield is down? Or is it just Guard All that get's affected?

[CanyptianFit]

Wow, pretty sweeping changes. Still digesting.

Well this really now just makes me mad at myself for selling my death dog way back before he had any passives. He will join the prisoner as a major force I'm thinking.

Just one comment/reaction to people using Mummy Eddie. The changes your proposing may reduce his prominence, but the root issue is the lack of good AI on other Eddies. While the Grim Reaper is powerful, his AI weakens him and is his liability. Hopefully you can enhance the he AI on other Eddies to entice us to use them more.

Thanks for sharing this ahead of time. Gives us a warning to ensure we aren't sharding characters ahead of a nerf.

Cheers.

[Jofer16]

I've been wanting to use my samurai forever, yes! this'll be fun.

Also, I wonder how often 2 prisoners would disable all passives.

[Sparton_LOTB]

Sorry Sparton it is early here and I am not fully awake yet so can you clarify this for me please?

If I go into Arena with my AoP against a Warrior troll and I go 1st his shield is up? If I go 2nd his shield is down? Or is it just Guard All that get's affected?

It doesn't matter if you go first or second, Angel of Pain will not stop you from attacking into the Warrior Troll's shields that he generates from his passive (the defensive shields will tick down 1 turn the same time the Angel of Pain tries to tick them down 1 turn).


Also, I wonder how often 2 prisoners would disable all passives.

Uncommon, but still possible, yes (basically need to succeed at one of two coin flips per character; ie 75% chance per character).

[JJJ428]

Looks like a lot of good updates to help PVE. I was wondering any consideration made into disabling the switching of eddies when you do autoplay?

[gmac]

Uncommon, but still possible, yes (basically need to succeed at one of two coin flips per character; ie 75% chance per character).

Sparton,

About The Prisoner's new passive. It's now a debuff that can be removed with cleanse? And if so the passive start working again?

[Kaz_LOTB]

Sparton,

About The Prisoner's new passive. It's now a debuff that can be removed with cleanse? And if so the passive start working again?

Yes, but it gets re-applied every turn. Also, first turn only passives will not re-activate after this effect is removed. Only innate passives, such as Block, Siege, Alchemy, etc. will.

[Kaz_LOTB]

Wow!!!

Kaz, could you make an example on Pharaoh Eddie Revive all healing? How much should it heal? Is Visions Healling from equilibrium ok too? Could never figure the base for that extra 10% for each skill shard on both skills.



Pharaoh Eddie with a standard build of about 30K-40K HP would heal for around 3.5k-to 4.5k at base level. Equilibrium's Regen is about the same depending on how much HP you build. Regen does not scale as well, but Visions Eddie can have higher HP due to the extra green slot, so they basically even out.

-Kaz

[gmac]

Pharaoh Eddie with a standard build of about 30K-40K HP would heal for around 3.5k-to 4.5k at base level. Equilibrium's Regen is about the same depending on how much HP you build. Regen does not scale as well, but Visions Eddie can have higher HP due to the extra green slot, so they basically even out.

-Kaz

Hi Kaz,

That healing is with or without skill shards? How they effect the healing? (tried a max Pharaoh from my troopers and could not see much difference form mine, that has no shards on that ability)

Great you fixed Visions, one more option for Eddie at Arena.

Cheers
Gmac

[Sag7272]

Yes, but it gets re-applied every turn. Also, first turn only passives will not re-activate after this effect is removed. Only innate passives, such as Block, Siege, Alchemy, etc. will.
Two questions
1-for the 2 turns passives like say a DM, blocking it first turn prevent it to work on 2nd too?
&
2-Since it's now a buff, passive immunity would prevent it or not?

[Sparton_LOTB]

Two questions
1-for the 2 turns passives like say a DM, blocking it first turn prevent it to work on 2nd too?

If the start-of-battle Passive Block application hits the Desert Marauder, then the DM's team is shit outta luck (the DM won't generate his start of battle buffs).


2-Since it's now a buff, passive immunity would prevent it or not?

Immunity would stop the Passive Block negative status effect.

[Sag7272]

If the start-of-battle Passive Block application hits the Desert Marauder, then the DM's team is shit outta luck (the DM won't generate his start of battle buffs)...
...Immunity would stop the Passive Block negative status effect.
Tanks Sparton for the (As usual) fast answer :)

[Kaz_LOTB]

Hi Kaz,

That healing is with or without skill shards? How they effect the healing? (tried a max Pharaoh from my troopers and could not see much difference form mine, that has no shards on that ability)

Great you fixed Visions, one more option for Eddie at Arena.

Cheers
Gmac

That's without Skill Shards. It'll be 2k-to-3K more healing with skill shards.

-Kaz

[Nicko]

2714

But in all honesty - I think PvP will become a lot more interesting, especially with all the new - and Skilled up - toons people have thanks to sacrifice..

[Zapathusara]

2714

You are a Prisioner. Not a Freeman.
Now we need a new Number One.

[Zapathusara]

So, if I have a Immunity Dog, how does it work against Prisioner? And, if its affected as usual, a Immunity Talis would block prisioner's debuff?

I think RedTroll is the big winner here. Two natural counters gets nerfed. BlueBat needs to find another job, I dont see mine get used in near future.

Blue Rescuer has already a very high chance to freeze for two turns. Lets see how it will be after update. Nomad seens pushed too.

[Nicko]

Really surprised the Prisoner has been reduced to a debuff countered by immunity. A Troll and some immunity Talismans (or Hellhound) and you're set, though theoretically a Prisoner/DeathDog combo could counter the shields for two of the characters - but you're not going to see it for the same reason you don't now - not enough fire power.

I would wager we'll start seeing more Death Dogs than Prisoners - because it leaves the taunt/stun/freeze window open for at least two enemies at the start of the match, and the Gimp is basically neutered...

[PerthEddie]

Sparton thanks for the fast reply to my earlier question

I had just got to work when I quickly read the proposed changes so not really had chance to digest them. I didn't spot earlier that the Angel of Fear is also getting a bit of a smack of the bat isn't it? Bloody hell, because of my (lack of) RNG luck the AoF and AoP are 2 of the extremely few toons I have to go at PvP with. My immediate thought is f*****g hell - what do I do now :( :( :( :(

[Silentknight]

Really surprised the Prisoner has been reduced to a debuff countered by immunity. A Troll and some immunity Talismans (or Hellhound) and you're set, though theoretically a Prisoner/DeathDog combo could counter the shields for two of the characters - but you're not going to see it for the same reason you don't now - not enough fire power.

I would wager we'll start seeing more Death Dogs than Prisoners - because it leaves the taunt/stun/freeze window open for at least two enemies at the start of the match, and the Gimp is basically neutered...

Think u mean castrated! On the bright side...no more whining. BoS takes another hit! Funny,no mention of the scoring/list bug...must be my imagination!

[druid138]

What's the story behind the name change from Ox Cultist to Cultist Cleric? And, why no corresponding change for the Corrupt Ox Cultist?

I have a soft spot for these two, as I relied on them very heavily in the early days. And, the art for the Corrupt Ox Cultist is fantastic!

druid138-6195

[druid138]

Could you please provide more detail about the change to Ascension talismans? Your post indicates that they will change to Warp.

1. I have Warps already in my inventory. So are Ascensions simply converting to something that already exists?

2. Why? I know I'm in the minority here, but I've found Ascensions useful at times (e.g., Sentinel Pyro).

3. Will my existing Ascensions just convert to Warp? That's a little frustrating, as I invested quite a bit into them based on their existing properties (that argument could apply to any of the tuning changes, of course ).

Thanks!

druid138-6195

[Tritium]

Sparton, to clarify, will the Death Dog's new passive work in the first round (i.e. against enemy passives)? If so, I'm predicting that he will become the next must-have, slightly OP toon. Or will he work like the blue bat and only go into effect after the first turn passives are used?

[Kutte]

some nice tunings here. but i miss some changes on how taunt work. again 4 times in a row totally disabled all the time by mummy/ssd/blue bat team on first turn onwards. not a single toon was spared.
I don't see anything in the List what could put an end to this. passives alone won't be enough

What about Vikings Loot?
Was it a stealth nerf that he only steals one effect healing next to nothing or will we get him back?

[Tritium]

some nice tunings here. but i miss some changes on how taunt work. again 4 times in a row totally disabled all the time by mummy/ssd/blue bat team on first turn onwards. not a single toon was spared.
I don't see anything in the List what could put an end to this. passives alone won't be enough

What about Vikings Loot?
Was it a stealth nerf that he only steals one effect healing next to nothing or will we get him back?

Passives will be plenty to combat these teams now. Warrior Troll, HH, Artillery Dog, and immunity talismans will all be able to be used to counter these teams with the April update. Blue bat's siege will no longer work on the first round even if you go 2nd, which means your toons will be able to move unrestricted from the get-go.

I'm incredibly pleased to see these changes, as the taunt teams have been ridiculous as of late. At least with the April update people will have to get creative again!

[Kutte]

damn ... i missed the Diaper Bat part
thx

[blade685]

dupes characters souls system will change or not?, we lose many players because of that
We can't have new toons without many luck with all souls

[Kutte]

dupes characters souls system will change or not
they are planing a new feature for this called "soul fragments"
http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?5071-Feature-Preview-Sacrifice&p=34728&highlight=soulshards#post34728

[blade685]

they are planing a new feature for this called "soul fragments"
http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?5071-Feature-Preview-Sacrifice&p=34728&highlight=soulshards#post34728

we'll see, actually, it's impossible to have all characters too many dupes system

[satani]

some of the changes seem good: (first, only mentionning the characters i have)
Warrior COTD, Nomad, WDQ, Void talismans, death dog passive.

Some "nerfs" seem tricky.
Prisoners passive: well, it has been discussed big. I do not like it. Gotta see, how this works.

Others seem interesting:
Pharaoh, Mummy, troll, ascension talisman remodel.

[RCarter]

Not all that surprised that the Prisoner is getting nerfed, but bummed out just the same.

He is much stronger in PVE than he ever was in PVP.

Would have rather just seen him banned instead of broken for the rest of the game.

[Sag7272]

Would have rather just seen him banned instead of broken for the rest of the game.
True, without firepower adjustment he's going to be among the most useless PvE toon around...
And the easiest of the boss, hmm.. Wonder if there's something up their sleeves..

[Silentknight]

True, without firepower adjustment he's going to be among the most useless PvE toon around...
And the easiest of the boss, hmm.. Wonder if there's something up their sleeves..

Never used him in PvE... I like a challenge. Think it was Killhouses' Warrior Troll in beta made me shard him!

[CrazyHarry-2514]

I don't understand the AoF decrease ATK scalling and increase DEF scalling.
Torture scales on MaxHP and Ravage scales on Special...

or are we talking about the stats? like raw ATK and raw DEF will be modifed? What's the point in changing the ATK?

Because for me, a skill (which deals for example ATK) and is described as scalling with another stat (DEF, HPMax or any other than ATK) for that specific skill, the ATK stat should not come into the equation of the damage dealt, otherwise the description is misleading. (I would be happy if someone could confirm that point).

[Silentknight]

Never used him in PvE... I like a challenge. Think it was Killhouses' Warrior Troll in beta made me shard him!

Still don't for farming either,CRE,CG,MGS

[Silentknight]

Still don't for farming either,CRE,CG,MGS

Calling him Lefty now cuz they only cut off 1 of his nuts!

[Nicko]

Sparton, to clarify, will the Death Dog's new passive work in the first round (i.e. against enemy passives)? If so, I'm predicting that he will become the next must-have, slightly OP toon. Or will he work like the blue bat and only go into effect after the first turn passives are used?

It doesn't affect passives - it now removes beneficial effects on two enemies. So basically the Prisoner will be countered with immunity (he's now basically useless), the Blue Bat will kick in the second round (also useless), and Death dog will block effects like ATK increases and immunity on two enemies - but assuming not shields (probably the best of the three).

I do like that they're trying to get more toons used. Variety on defense - and hopefully offense - is definitely needed.

[konstifik]

I don't understand the AoF decrease ATK scalling and increase DEF scalling.
Torture scales on MaxHP and Ravage scales on Special...

or are we talking about the stats? like raw ATK and raw DEF will be modifed? What's the point in changing the ATK?

Because for me, a skill (which deals for example ATK) and is described as scalling with another stat (DEF, HPMax or any other than ATK) for that specific skill, the ATK stat should not come into the equation of the damage dealt, otherwise the description is misleading. (I would be happy if someone could confirm that point).

I think it means he will have the same ATK and DEF on level 1 but will gain less ATK and more DEF as you level him up.

If the skill mentions scaling with any stats, those are in addition to scaling with ATK for physical damage, MAGIC for magic damage and both for true damage.

[Caretaker]

This is the main post to discuss general changes from the recent update.

You can see the details for the preliminary tuning adjustments in the Game Updates forum post (http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?5152).



We’re changing the Prisoner’s passive.

With that out of the way, let’s summarize the broad changes that we’re looking at doing in the next update:


There are certain characters that have passives which counter a large swath of other characters before combat even starts (Prisoner, Angel of Pain, Death Dog, Warrior Troll)
There are certain characters with extremely high usage rates in PVP, especially within certain combos, which despite some additions and changes continue to dominate and frustrate in the arena (Prisoner, Warrior Troll, Mummy Eddie, etc)
There are many very rare characters which are not used frequently (if at all) not only in PVP but in PVE (Samurai Eddie, Visions Eddie, Warrior Child of the Damned, etc)
Certain defensive status effects can be very problematic to play around or counter (Vanish, damage reduction shields, Void Shields, etc)


In short, we hope this set of changes will achieve 3 things:


Increase the diversity of viable characters in the Arena
Help pave the way for more interesting PVE content set for the coming months
Ensure each of the affected characters can shine within their niche (even if that means some characters won’t be the best answer for almost every encounter)


First of all I'd like to know if this are things open for DISCUSSION or is this thread another 'that said' discussion? So I don't comment if not necessary.

You forgot or should I say you intentionaly left out SSD, after pris/siege the most used one if owned. We know @Sparton its your char of choice and you are reluctant to discuss it since 'suspect thread' where owners didn't mind. But I'm gonna speak of disbalance and against ssd. I don't mind nerfing the mummy, more eds on defs to see, good, but his taunt is no stronger than ssd's which needs to get nerfed as well!! Plus opscure true aoe dmg ssd does for a sentienel, hp scaled, so nothing you need for him to hit that much, plus shield that renders attacks miserable, what is it, after heal, 30% of dmg has passed or less? I love that toon as many others do, but just pointing out the obvious. That guy who was lucky to pull 3rd ssd, I don't know wth he's doing out there :rofl:

Please note the sarcasm..

For all the good things I have and will say that latest updates brought, this is one thing missed out on purpose and I don't mind speaking out my thoughts on good or bad.

A few more laughs.. first one I see on my list with a wolf cultist stunner fully sharded I'm gonna personally bash myself into that guy and give him 1000 pts push in arena! And my poor red Imp who you personally had a chance to play recently with maxed endurance vs dmg arena setup (4 power 5,5k aoe true, healing down, preety much same as your ssd with wicked rates and few options on talis setup - blind, vanish, etc) with miserable 4.5k max hp isn't getting mandatory green, bummer.

Now that prisoners negative effects no longer transfer on immune toones (congrats on that fix!) and it is taimed it will be rewritten, lol. Gonna be bad ass? Oping the blue rescuer?
In my non worthy opinion, none of toons should have never been nerfed. Another, no passives or 4* arena, and/or arena modifiers, as I suggested long ago, would have spared you of all this. But hey. I feel you considered some of my suggestions on a few things, but half solutions are really not solutions. As allways, I prepare for the worst and hope for the best. With high hopes, I wish the best of luck and that everything turns out the way it helps diversity!

[Ezz]

What will happen to existing warp talismans? I have 2 at level 50 and they currently are giving 1% of hp increase to magic which is useless. Will these be fixed to give 25% of MR increase to special as they did originally? Will they also be renamed?

[HomemLivre]

I really, really like this new changes! FINALLY the Prisoner gets his deserved nerf, its almost hard to believe in that hahaha!
Prisoner fanboys will be a little pissed, but hey, we will finally get a mixed pvp with many more toons!
Visions Eddie, you guys know that Im waiting to use him for so long, so my thx again, you devs rocks in this future update!
The only thing I really dislike here is the change on Siege, begin to work only in the second turn puts the AoP on the trash when the decisive actions are taken in the first turn.

Anyway I appreciate this update, thanks Kaz and Sparton.

[Patrice-1201]

I really, really like this new changes! FINALLY the Prisoner gets his deserved nerf, its almost hard to believe in that hahaha!
Prisoner fanboys will be a little pissed, but hey, we will finally get a mixed pvp with many more toons!
Visions Eddie, you guys know that Im waiting to use him for so long, so my thx again, you devs rocks in this future update!
The only thing I really dislike here is the change on Siege, begin to work only in the second turn puts the AoP on the trash when the decisive actions are taken in the first turn.

Anyway I appreciate this update, thanks Kaz and Sparton.

I really second what HomemLivre is saying disabling Siege on first turn means we will all Sacrifice our AOP....

[Hypnos]

Looking forward to this update. However, I'm confused as to why a fix for fervor hasn't been introduced yet. It's been a few months now and it still isn't functioning properly.

I'd like to see if anything could be done to make the assassin and magus golden sons look less alike. I think the blue on the magus is very dark and very often I confuse it with the assassin - only to realise the golden son I just killed had revived itself.

Nevertheless I'm excited to see the new passives come into play especially those new harpy passives!

[PsiH86]

I have only created a subject in Bug Reports on Warp/Ascension Talismans... http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?5156-Ascension-Warp-talisman-Set-Bug
Interestingly, the similar jamb with Warp Talismans will be corrected along with Ascension?)

[HomemLivre]

I really second what HomemLivre is saying disabling Siege on first turn means we will all Sacrifice our AOP....

Yeah, It's practically that. I believe that AoP need to be full sharded to be able to use, so, we all going to loose 10 shards if this going to be definitive.

And another point that I let go unintentionally its about the AoF damage, why it need to be reduced even more? Its becouse the number of sentinels on the current scenario? This will be dif in the future, so I dont believe he deserves to be nerfed again.

[Nifelheim]

Those harpys with the new passive may be the hidden gem, especially for a natural 3* drop, will help the majority/non top100 pvp'ers

About the current warp talismans, will those become what ascension are now? Ascension is magic based and my warp will is attack boost, making it of no use. Like holy talismans on warrior CotD :)

[Nicko]

I really second what HomemLivre is saying disabling Siege on first turn means we will all Sacrifice our AOP....

No different than us Sacrificing our Prisoners ;)

[Kaz_LOTB]

Looking forward to this update. However, I'm confused as to why a fix for fervor hasn't been introduced yet. It's been a few months now and it still isn't functioning properly.

I'd like to see if anything could be done to make the assassin and magus golden sons look less alike. I think the blue on the magus is very dark and very often I confuse it with the assassin - only to realise the golden son I just killed had revived itself.

Nevertheless I'm excited to see the new passives come into play especially those new harpy passives!

The main reason is that it requires a code fix and there are many competing priorities with limited engineering resources available (i.e. To get a fix for this, we'd need to take a coder off character fragments or Brave New World, which pushes those features out, etc). That being said, I will look at prioritizing this skill fix in the queue of ability bugs we have.

-Kaz

[BenjaminBreeg]

Why don't you let Siege have a chance, too, to eliminate the effects of passives? Like 50% to counter the passive shields/immunity etc and 100% to work as usual on beneficial effects of the enemys buff effects...

[Tritium]

Yeah, It's practically that. I believe that AoP need to be full sharded to be able to use, so, we all going to loose 10 shards if this going to be definitive.

And another point that I let go unintentionally its about the AoF damage, why it need to be reduced even more? Its becouse the number of sentinels on the current scenario? This will be dif in the future, so I dont believe he deserves to be nerfed again.

Yea, I don't understand the second nerf of the AoF either. Especially when it will lead to him having more def instead of MR ─ which would be far more helpful considering his weakness to magus toons. Given the option, I would never trade some of AoF's attack for an increase in merely def.

[Rodrigo-3281]

Well that's too bad about AoP and all the skill shards I apparently wasted on it.

Looks like I'll be working on my Death Dog now and I guess I shouldn't have sacrificed the Harpy Warrior as that passive looks useful.

Would have been great to have seen these characters updates before Sacrifice.

[Frost]

a way to realocate skill shards...

So far 3 toons I have nerfed with skill shards on them.

[Sparton_LOTB]

So, if I have a Immunity Dog, how does it work against Prisioner? And, if its affected as usual, a Immunity Talis would block prisioner's debuff?

Start of combat Immunity will prevent the Block Passive status effect.


What's the story behind the name change from Ox Cultist to Cultist Cleric? And, why no corresponding change for the Corrupt Ox Cultist?

Hah, I love the Cultist Cleric myself. He's been one of the guys I've been wanting to pump some skill shards into him and see how he rolls; he has a surprisingly potent team heal that doesn't cost 5 or more.

The reason for the name change (or lack thereof for the Corrupt guy) will be made more clear in a subsequent update.


Could you please provide more detail about the change to Ascension talismans? Your post indicates that they will change to Warp.


What will happen to existing warp talismans? I have 2 at level 50 and they currently are giving 1% of hp increase to magic which is useless. Will these be fixed to give 25% of MR increase to special as they did originally? Will they also be renamed?


I have only created a subject in Bug Reports on Warp/Ascension Talismans... http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?5156-Ascension-Warp-talisman-Set-Bug
Interestingly, the similar jamb with Warp Talismans will be corrected along with Ascension?)

Ascensions will be renamed Warp, and Warps will be renamed Ascension.

The newly renamed Warp (the green ones) will function like they did before the name change. The newly renamed Ascension (the yellow ones) will change to something more potent at some point in the future, and will become available in the Brave New World when that feature arrives.

The reason we didn't mention anything about the yellow talismans is we thought those were not available when we compiled the preliminary tuning notes, but those were available at some point if some of you have them (maybe even I have some in some corner of my inventory...).


Sparton, to clarify, will the Death Dog's new passive work in the first round (i.e. against enemy passives)?

He will, but you'll not be able to hit everyone, and he can be stopped by the Prisoner.


What about Vikings Loot?
Was it a stealth nerf that he only steals one effect healing next to nothing or will we get him back?

That change was not intended; we're still investigating a fix for that bug.


It doesn't affect passives - it now removes beneficial effects on two enemies. So basically the Prisoner will be countered with immunity (he's now basically useless), the Blue Bat will kick in the second round (also useless), and Death dog will block effects like ATK increases and immunity on two enemies - but assuming not shields (probably the best of the three).

To clarify, shield status effects are beneficial status effects, so the Death Dog will rip those out too (although again, not everyone's, unless you've already worn the team down to 1 character).


First of all I'd like to know if this are things open for DISCUSSION or is this thread another 'that said' discussion? So I don't comment if not necessary.

We're open to discussion, although we're not necessarily going to change a whole lot based on one or two players' feedback if it's not something we also agree with. Nonetheless, part of why we want to post preliminary notes for such substantial changes is indeed to have a bit of a discussion about possible changes, and possibly change course if part of the plan has a flaw we didn't anticipate and we have the resources to make that change.


You forgot or should I say you intentionaly left out SSD, after pris/siege the most used one if owned. We know @Sparton its your char of choice and you are reluctant to discuss it since 'suspect thread' where owners didn't mind. But I'm gonna speak of disbalance and against ssd.

While I understand the suspicion of no changes being made to a character I pretty clearly like, the fact of the matter is is that we don't see a need to change him at this time. As Tritium (http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?5153-April-2017-Tuning-Discussion-PRELIMINARY&p=35715&viewfull=1#post35715) noted earlier in the thread, taunt-based strategies are going to take a huge hit in this update, which we believe will change Sentinel Soulless Demon from a cog in a CC machine to being someone that will either work fine in his own right or be better served by a different character (depending on the teams you are facing).


A few more laughs.. first one I see on my list with a wolf cultist stunner fully sharded I'm gonna personally bash myself into that guy and give him 1000 pts push in arena! And my poor red Imp who you personally had a chance to play recently with maxed endurance vs dmg arena setup (4 power 5,5k aoe true, healing down, preety much same as your ssd with wicked rates and few options on talis setup - blind, vanish, etc) with miserable 4.5k max hp isn't getting mandatory green, bummer.

We normally don't look at arena viability of 1 and 2 star characters as a factor when doing balancing changes, but we do carve out an exception for the low-rarity units players would more likely see when they first start playing the game (especially considering them as opponents), which is part of the reason why some early-game, low-rarity characters have gotten adjustments. For the most part, low-rarity characters are built to be PVE opponents and the collectability/usability when the player has them is just a side benefit.


I'd like to see if anything could be done to make the assassin and magus golden sons look less alike. I think the blue on the magus is very dark and very often I confuse it with the assassin - only to realise the golden son I just killed had revived itself.

Oh shit, I definitely see how that could be a problem for some people, especially if you're not aware or are fighting two at the same time.

All I can tell you right now is it seems the glow on the Assassin one is brighter/more saturated, but the body colour is nearly black. Pumping your device brightness might help in the meantime as well.


And another point that I let go unintentionally its about the AoF damage, why it need to be reduced even more? Its becouse the number of sentinels on the current scenario? This will be dif in the future, so I dont believe he deserves to be nerfed again.


Yea, I don't understand the second nerf of the AoF either. Especially when it will lead to him having more def instead of MR ─ which would be far more helpful considering his weakness to magus toons. Given the option, I would never trade some of AoF's attack for an increase in merely def.

We found that his single target and AoE damage capabilities were both still head and shoulders above most other damaging characters, on top of having one of the most potent passives in the game (when you can make it trigger), which means he's too often the obvious choice instead of any other single target attacker (or even many AoE attackers, because he can do both).


Why don't you let Siege have a chance, too, to eliminate the effects of passives? Like 50% to counter the passive shields/immunity etc and 100% to work as usual on beneficial effects of the enemys buff effects...

Siege's ongoing effect is useful in it's own right, and we'd rather make what the Angel of Pain does more distinct from what the Death Dog does. The Angel of Pain mocks Void Shield users if his passive isn't blocked whereas the Death Dog will still only get rid of 1 or 2 of them, for example.

[BonFire]

Goddamn it. Why nerf the Prisoner from doing his job? It's not his fault other passives are really dickish.

Well, I don't have the luck to try find a better team, so I'm probably gonna spend the next couple of months trying to get a Rainmaker and then I'm done.

[Jofer16]

Goddamn it. Why nerf the Prisoner from doing his job? It's not his fault other passives are really dickish.

Well, I don't have the luck to try find a better team, so I'm probably gonna spend the next couple of months trying to get a Rainmaker and then I'm done.

He'll still do his job if you use 3 of them haha

[mjmxiii]

Kinda bummed that AoP and Prisoner are getting nerfed but I'm really looking forward to the changes to my Death Dog. That is my dawg! Glad I maxed him up..

Also good to see an attempt to have more of these great chars we all have but are quite useless PvP-wise at the moment be more viable in the arena.

How long (roughly) before we see these changes and will there be fixes for all the specific bugs that were introduced with the last update?

[PsiH86]

The reason we didn't mention anything about the yellow talismans is we thought those were not available when we compiled the preliminary tuning notes, but those were available at some point if some of you have them (maybe even I have some in some corner of my inventory...).




I have Warp Talismans of the whole 5 pieces...
I don't remember itself precisely from where they have fallen...
Most likely from Secret Missions that precisely I remember they at me for a long time.
Thanks for the answer!

[Sparton_LOTB]

How long (roughly) before we see these changes and will there be fixes for all the specific bugs that were introduced with the last update?

We are aiming for mid-April.

There will be plenty of other fixes and improvements not specified in the preliminary character tuning.

[DaveMurray]

Why choosing the easy way of nerfing toons and not the creatful way of making useless ones better by adding new passives and tune their skills?
What about the skillshards on the toons that will be nerfed, will we get an option to reset them?
Since you chose this way, no nerf on GRE..?Come on!
What about the worst future in pvp? Yes that crap that desides that the AI should always go first!

[Shifter]

The warp talismans we have will become more potent in the future, how?

I always thought the warp and Rush Talismans where hidden Gems with the 25% of MR or Def to special, when they stopped dropping i started collecting them just in case and managed to keep 3 of these. example: Either one will give the PDK close to 240 bonus points of special. (or did before update)

Now warp is changing will the Rush talismans change too? I do think this will help the green ones now, before they were the first to go in the fire sale.

[gmac]

The warp talismans we have will become more potent in the future, how?


Hey man,

I got a couple sets in my inventory, it says now MAGIC x HP, put them on some toon, it's still a 2 set, and now says increase magic by 1% of HP.

(Is that it Sparton?)

Cheers
Gmac

[gmac]

What about the skillshards on the toons that will be nerfed, will we get an option to reset them?


Yeah, removable skill shards, that would make the game much more dynamic, we would try much more toons and different combinations, would go well with new talismans from BNW...

Btw, I too think AoF does not need any more nerfing. Too much already.

[Demoonchild]

Looking forward to this update. However, I'm confused as to why a fix for fervor hasn't been introduced yet. It's been a few months now and it still isn't functioning properly.

I'd like to see if anything could be done to make the assassin and magus golden sons look less alike. I think the blue on the magus is very dark and very often I confuse it with the assassin - only to realise the golden son I just killed had revived itself.

Nevertheless I'm excited to see the new passives come into play especially those new harpy passives!

I second this Sparton... Is there any chance to fix Fervor in the upcoming tuning??? You must know that actually "Charge" chance is not working at all.
Another question, since Warrior Harpy now will have a cool passive, she still will be a 3* char??

I wanto to give some suggestion for you and the team :

Is there a chance for you to consider to replace Visions Eddie basic attack with another a little more interesting (Smash is awful)??
Since you have practically kill the prisoner on PVP, it would be cool to buff his magic, since his basic attack scales with it and now is even less than his ATK.
PDK passive will be buffed again, but I think that is a good idea to chech is basic attack or his Magic stat, since really, no one uses on PVP or PVE, Im sure that he's the number one 5* character for Sacrifice...

That's all for now, thanks in advance!

[Ancient Mariner]

Great, after i finally got the prisoner from a soul, it will be nerfed lol

I didn't read all the topic: so does this mean the prisoner's passive will be changed but taunting chance to occur (which is ridiculously high) will remain the same? I hope not, because that is actually what kills the fun in arena! Most of times at least 3 chars out of 4 (if not all of 'em) get taunted and often you don't play at all for 2-3 rounds. I hope this will be changed instead, reducing significantly the chances to happen

edit: just noticed that it's actually planned to reduce the taunting chances, finally! Will it be applied only to Mummy and not to the soulness demon?

[R1ck]

I already sacrificed my PDK, this notice would have been great before sacrifice.
Also because I full sharded The Prisoner with the shards I got from sacrifice. There goes 10 skillshards.
Not to mention AoP fully sharded as well, now useless, really don't think people will use him anymore in PVP.
There should be a way to remove skillshards​, at this moment there is no motivation to shard any character that will be nerfed eventually.

[PsiH86]

Hey man,

I got a couple sets in my inventory, it says now MAGIC x HP, put them on some toon, it's still a 2 set, and now says increase magic by 1% of HP.

(Is that it Sparton?)

Cheers
Gmac

I can tell one thing, at the moment, bonuses and Warp, and Ascension Talismans don't work...
If you don't trust, you can look at screens in my subject in a branch of the forum Bug Reports

[gmac]

I can tell one thing, at the moment, bonuses and Warp, and Ascension Talismans don't work...
If you don't trust, you can look at screens in my subject in a branch of the forum Bug Reports

I trust you, just wondering how they'll work.

Btw, do you know if they fix stone and iron talismans? They never added the bonuses if I remember correctly.

I just tested my explosives, they do additional AoE damage, but never say any of those burns applied.

[mjmxiii]

There should be a way to remove skillshards​, at this moment there is no motivation to shard any character that will be nerfed eventually.

Sparton has mentioned that this is not in any plans for the future but I think those of us who have played this game ad naseum to obtain these little gems can all agree this is a discussion that should be at the top of NF's list of how to make the game better...

While some decisions, like maxing up Death Dog seem to have been a good choice (at least on paper), it's very frustrating to have invested the time and energy we all have to maximize characters only to have them nerfed after the fact.

The way NF has the option to fix what and who they like at any time, we should also have the same option to decide if characters are worth keeping maxed after such things occur.

At the moment I have 7 skill shards that are just sitting in my inventory. I am very hesitant to use them and that should not have to be an issue.

[PsiH86]

I trust you, just wondering how they'll work.

Btw, do you know if they fix stone and iron talismans? They never added the bonuses if I remember correctly.

I just tested my explosives, they do additional AoE damage, but never say any of those burns applied.

Yes... it is valid, Stone and Iron Talismans Bonuses are also not displayed, in difference from Strenght, Guardian, Resistance, Resilence and Assassin Talismans Bonuses (I have sat with the calculator, I have counted)...

[RobG-9641]

There should be a "legendary skill shard" this would be a removable skill shard. It could be obtained by sacrificing a fully skill sharded character or for sale in Arena for high amount of iron coin. This would appease people and give incentive to play Arena. 3 regular skill shards for 1 legendary skill shard, something like that....

[gmac]

Yes... it is valid, Stone and Iron Talismans Bonuses are also not displayed, in difference from Strenght, Guardian, Resistance, Resilence and Assassin Talismans Bonuses (I have sat with the calculator, I have counted)...

Thanks for the info. Hope they fix this on the next update too.

[PsiH86]

Thanks for the info. Hope they fix this on the next update too.

I agree with you! Developers should correct it...

Here now as I will create one more subject in Bug Reports. Suddenly will work, as well as with Ascension (I have created a subject - there was an announcement that correct work of a Talismans):D:D:D

[Tritium]

Sparton has mentioned that this is not in any plans for the future but I think those of us who have played this game ad naseum to obtain these little gems can all agree this is a discussion that should be at the top of NF's list of how to make the game better...

While some decisions, like maxing up Death Dog seem to have been a good choice (at least on paper), it's very frustrating to have invested the time and energy we all have to maximize characters only to have them nerfed after the fact.

The way NF has the option to fix what and who they like at any time, we should also have the same option to decide if characters are worth keeping maxed after such things occur.

At the moment I have 7 skill shards that are just sitting in my inventory. I am very hesitant to use them and that should not have to be an issue.

I wholeheartedly agree with you and everyone else on this matter. Skill shards are the most premium item in the game and, as such, take a long time to amass. Add on to this the fact that skill shards are absolutely needed in order to compete in PVP, and you end up with a problem when toons get nerfed into oblivion and we have no chance to remove those now-useless skill shards and give them to a better toon.

[Rodrigo-3281]

Sparton has mentioned that this is not in any plans for the future but I think those of us who have played this game ad naseum to obtain these little gems can all agree this is a discussion that should be at the top of NF's list of how to make the game better...

While some decisions, like maxing up Death Dog seem to have been a good choice (at least on paper), it's very frustrating to have invested the time and energy we all have to maximize characters only to have them nerfed after the fact.

The way NF has the option to fix what and who they like at any time, we should also have the same option to decide if characters are worth keeping maxed after such things occur.

At the moment I have 7 skill shards that are just sitting in my inventory. I am very hesitant to use them and that should not have to be an issue.

I completely agree as well. It seems like now I should max a Death Dog but who's to say that this toon won't be nerfed in the future.

The AoP had to be sharded to be actually useful in PvP but with the upcoming changes this toon will be trash and so now 10 skill shards were wasted.

There has to be some sort of compromise. Maybe you get half the skill shards if you sacrifice a fully sharded toon? Otherwise like you said I don't want to use skill shards.

[Jofer16]

I wholeheartedly agree with you and everyone else on this matter. Skill shards are the most premium item in the game and, as such, take a long time to amass. Add on to this the fact that skill shards are absolutely needed in order to compete in PVP, and you end up with a problem when toons get nerfed into oblivion and we have no chance to remove those now-useless skill shards and give them to a better toon.

Sacrifice has made it a lot better. I've done 3 void fills and got shards each time for a total of 24. Obviously you'll get souls sometimes too but at least we have another way to obtain them. Also if you're doing your trooper grinding you can buy one about every 3 days.

The nerfing of characters people invest in is unfortunate, but it's a pretty standard thing among games with PvP. played a bunch of others and it happens in all of them. OP toons get nerfed and underused ones get buffed to keep the game constantly changing and fresh.

Anyone play SWGOH when Royal Guard was essentially useless in all aspects of the game, somewhat of a joke, and with one meta update, went to the single most powerful toon? Even games like World of Warcraft do the same thing. It's not that bad here compared to other grinds. Imagine playing WoW, only having 1 toon you've played and leveled, spent a year grinding raids, etc for gear only to have the class you chose to play nerfed into the ground. It could be worse, and like I said, it's a natural thing with games that evolve and aren't static.

My advice to people is don't sacrifice unless you have dupes or it's an easily obtainable character. I cringe when I see people say stuff like "I sacrificed my Samuari because he sucks and I don't use him". This is exactly how you DON'T want to play, unless you don't care about the long term game. With one update any toon can go to the next best thing. Prepare and play smart and it won't be such of a burden. It's people that don't plan ahead that tend to feel the pain.

[zdm-1083]

Also if you're doing your trooper grinding you can buy one about every 3 days.

2 days with a full list of active troopers ^^'

On prisoner change, I'm a bit disappointed.
I read somewhere in the forum to make his passive blocking passives of his teammates.
This proposition sounds better to me.
Moreover it is also a change that matches new talisman.

For info, I do not have a prisoner :)

Other changes sounds good.

[Chaosego888]

Sacrifice has made it a lot better. I've done 3 void fills and got shards each time for a total of 24. Obviously you'll get souls sometimes too but at least we have another way to obtain them. Also if you're doing your trooper grinding you can buy one about every 3 days.

The nerfing of characters people invest in is unfortunate, but it's a pretty standard thing among games with PvP. played a bunch of others and it happens in all of them. OP toons get nerfed and underused ones get buffed to keep the game constantly changing and fresh.

Anyone play SWGOH when Royal Guard was essentially useless in all aspects of the game, somewhat of a joke, and with one meta update, went to the single most powerful toon? Even games like World of Warcraft do the same thing. It's not that bad here compared to other grinds. Imagine playing WoW, only having 1 toon you've played and leveled, spent a year grinding raids, etc for gear only to have the class you chose to play nerfed into the ground. It could be worse, and like I said, it's a natural thing with games that evolve and aren't static.

My advice to people is don't sacrifice unless you have dupes or it's an easily obtainable character. I cringe when I see people say stuff like "I sacrificed my Samuari because he sucks and I don't use him". This is exactly how you DON'T want to play, unless you don't care about the long term game. With one update any toon can go to the next best thing. Prepare and play smart and it won't be such of a burden. It's people that don't plan ahead that tend to feel the pain.
Well said, this is the only mobile game I have ever played, probably won't ever be another because of time investment. I keep all my characters and have anticipated some others becoming useful at some point. I have invested skill shards in my Angel of Pain also and I don't even care if he is useless, just means all the ones that give me so much hell are useless as well. I was expecting it to be the next dominant character, good to know I was wrong.

[90mphyorker]

Sparton, is there any chance the 1 per week limit on skill shards in the arena shop could be changed?

I agree with a limit as people who pump money into the game would get too big an advantage. But 1050 iron coins is not a hard target to achieve through regular play and maybe the odd SoW refill.

I believe lifting the limit to 3 would help alleviate some peoples frustrations when these 'Nerfs' happen as while they'll still think they've lost those skill shards, at least they'll be able to shard up other characters quicker.

Skill shards are the premium item in the game and so hard to come by. 3 a week from the arena doesn't seem like an unreasonably large amount, especially if you are putting the time in with arena.

[Jofer16]

Sparton, is there any chance the 1 per week limit on skill shards in the arena shop could be changed?

I agree with a limit as people who pump money into the game would get too big an advantage. But 1050 iron coins is not a hard target to achieve through regular play and maybe the odd SoW refill.

I believe lifting the limit to 3 would help alleviate some peoples frustrations when these 'Nerfs' happen as while they'll still think they've lost those skill shards, at least they'll be able to shard up other characters quicker.

Skill shards are the premium item in the game and so hard to come by. 3 a week from the arena doesn't seem like an unreasonably large amount, especially if you are putting the time in with arena.

This would be a welcome change. I'm sitting on a ton of coins I can't use. Was also thinking it would be cool to introduce a monthly PvP skill oriented character, make shards available for that character in the store, and make the price costly. after X amount of shards you can combine them into the character. After the month is up (or even a few months) pull the character and add it to souls as a 5*, add a new character, rinse and repeat.

[Jofer16]

Well said, this is the only mobile game I have ever played, probably won't ever be another because of time investment.

Yeah, I wish there were other ex WoW players, man that grind was insane. In the early days PvP rank was setup similar to this game, if you possessed enough skill you could grind as high as you wanted. Matches were team style like 10v10 in theme based battlegrounds, capture the flag, etc. To get rank #1 (titled Grand Marshal, came with permanent title and exclusive gear) for the week one would literally have to grind like 12+ hours a day, the servers had exponentially more users so competition was crazy fierce. We had a group of 20 or so players that would run together all day every day swapping out tired players, never lose, and pick a player to let take 1st each week who we'd carry the entire time. Otherwise it was virtually impossible to win, if matches lasted too long because someone was slacking, they were booted from the circle, I think we had matches down to like 45 seconds each, was ridiculously efficient. premade groups such as ours were extremely rare so we'd faceroll everyone, they wouldn't even make it out of the starting area haha. Sometimes we'd run into other top server premades and the matches were sometimes a half hour+. Their was private voice chat so the conversations got hilarious, or people would pop in from other teams to talk smack.

I know a lot of people are shocked by my play style but it's the world I come from, not too many hardcore grinders here, so i probably seem crazy to some. well that's my nostalgia for the day :)

[Zapathusara]

I know a lot of people are shocked by my play style but it's the world I come from, not too many hardcore grinders here, so i probably seem crazy to some. well that's my nostalgia for the day :)

I get the nostalgia. My co worker is a regular WoW non pvp player. Even with a active guild, they dont raid legendary cuz time/grind restrains.

I have the lucky to daily play LOTB with him. Its good to have someone to chat.

Myself, Im an ex Game Designer and ex MTG grinder. I've seen metagames shifts and bans for lot less than we have here. Auto play is a bless. In fact, that was what made me farm and keep up with the game. Nerfs sucks, always. But we can recover.

But a 3 shards per week would made the burn much much softer.

[Jofer16]

I get the nostalgia. My co worker is a regular WoW non pvp player. Even with a active guild, they dont raid legendary cuz time/grind restrains.

I have the lucky to daily play LOTB along someone to chat.

Myself, Im an ex Game Designer and ex MTG grinder. I've seen metagames shifts and bans for lot less than we have here. Auto play is a bless. In fact, that was what made me farm and keep up with the game. Nerfs sucks, always. But we can recover.

But a 3 shards per week would made the burn much much softer.

Yeah PvE and raids were a whole other animal. Most top tier guilds back then would get together almost every night for 4-6 hours to clear raid instances. Was rough when new raids would come out, guilds would spend weeks wiping over and over trying to figure out boss mechanics. Imagine trying to instruct 40 guild mates on strategy when one persons mistake can mean a failed attempt, people had to solo grind for hours outside the raids just to have potions, etc for attempts. Lots of heated chat sessions and drama haha

And cool, I played a ton of MTG back in the day, still have a giant box of the original revised series, the one after Black Lotus, etc. and dabbled in the digital games, same with Hearthstone. Good memories :)

[Chaosego888]

Yeah, I wish there were other ex WoW players, man that grind was insane. In the early days PvP rank was setup similar to this game, if you possessed enough skill you could grind as high as you wanted. Matches were team style like 10v10 in theme based battlegrounds, capture the flag, etc. To get rank #1 (titled Grand Marshal, came with permanent title and exclusive gear) for the week one would literally have to grind like 12+ hours a day, the servers had exponentially more users so competition was crazy fierce. We had a group of 20 or so players that would run together all day every day swapping out tired players, never lose, and pick a player to let take 1st each week who we'd carry the entire time. Otherwise it was virtually impossible to win, if matches lasted too long because someone was slacking, they were booted from the circle, I think we had matches down to like 45 seconds each, was ridiculously efficient. premade groups such as ours were extremely rare so we'd faceroll everyone, they wouldn't even make it out of the starting area haha. Sometimes we'd run into other top server premades and the matches were sometimes a half hour+. Their was private voice chat so the conversations got hilarious, or people would pop in from other teams to talk smack.

I know a lot of people are shocked by my play style but it's the world I come from, not too many hardcore grinders here, so i probably seem crazy to some. well that's my nostalgia for the day :)I had a few friends several years ago try to get me to play World of Warcraft and I never would because I saw how much time they were putting into it and I new I would become equally obsessed. At that time I was working, going to school, playing in 3 different bands, trying to hang out with a chick once in a while, etc. I would have never slept again if I would have started playing that. I started playing this game because I am a big Iron Maiden fan. I thought it would just be something I had on my phone when I got bored. I don't think you're crazy for the way you play. Hell, I would try to compete with you if I had the time.

[surfingwithdje]

Nerfing characters is always a bad decision... Now AoP and prisoner will become useless (nice to have invest 15-20 skillshards on them..., and 10 others in AoF).
Just wait 2 weeks to see witch ones will be the new overpowered characters (troll? corrupt rescuer?) so they will be nerf after we have invest skillshards on them...

Very disapointed with this character tuning...

For the Troll, everyone knows what is happened when you attack a troll team without prisoner/blue bat.... If you nerf those 2 toons you have to remove the reflect shield from the troll (or allow more power points for the team who win the coin toss) because there are no counter for this!

[Silentknight]

Nerfing characters is always a bad decision... Now AoP and prisoner will become useless (nice to have invest 15-20 skillshards on them..., and 10 others in AoF).
Just wait 2 weeks to see witch ones will be the new overpowered characters (troll? corrupt rescuer?) so they will be nerf after we have invest skillshards on them...

Very disapointed with this character tuning...

For the Troll, everyone knows what is happened when you attack a troll team without prisoner/blue bat.... If you nerf those 2 toons you have to remove the reflect shield from the troll (or allow more power points for the team who win the coin toss) because there are no counter for this!

Prisoner just went from 'Elite' to 'Unwanted'!!! With the pathetic drop rates game is becoming very disheartening! No wonder everyone is leaving! For the 100th time,point system SUCKS!!! Bugs make it 10x worse!!! The 'free' game Maiden wanted is dead!!!

[Ubajoa]

I was a hardcore grinder in Wow man. I just left it like a year ago. My 2 greatest grinds are 2 achievements "insane in the membrane" and "Hero of shattrath", the first one took me a year and a half to complete, that's why the reward is the title "the insane" wich I used until I left the game. Lol. You can check it out.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/ragnaros/Kazhar/achievement#81:15273

By the way 3 skill shards per week sounds so sweet.

[CrazyHarry-2514]

Jofer could do 3 vortex sacrifices by dropping only dupes so he could keep 1 of each in case he needs to adapt his strategy. I guess he was super lucky...

I play since the begining of the game (June or July was it?) and kept all my dupes >=4*. Even if I update them all to 5* and max level due to the fact that upgrading a character to the next level does not increase its value significantly (which is unfair for the effort required to get those 3* Evo, I can be happy if I can update 1 char/week but I had 0 in a month to balance with that...) I might just have enough to do 1 vortex sacrifice. What I can only complain to is the RNG for not dropping me better dupes so I could do better sacrifice. Sweet...

Ranking as Eternal or King in PvP gives you additional skill shards, so we have an elite of a few 25 players who are gaining more flexibility in their strategy by getting additional shards (probably keeping a stack to adapt to the next tuning, which I would do too...). And the other players have no chance to compete with them because by the time we've catch up by upgrading 1-2 chars, the next tuning arrives and frustrates you...

I have 50 troopers and play them everyday, but I don't get more than 1 crystal shard every 4 days, so not all my troopers are doing their part of the job (thanks a lot those who do by the way and enjoy the ride while you can to the others :P) and there is no solution coming to figure out how many points did my trooper bring me in the last 7-14 days which would be an excellent statistic.

Clearly I don't know what strategy now to adopt. Do I try to collect 30 skill shards (about 15 weeks) and then figure out what is the trend to setup a good team? That won't help me much anyway because the gap between me and the top 25 will just have gotten bigger. When attacking you have to adapt to the defending team, so the more skill shards you have, the more you get and the stronger you remain....

I understand that Jofer doesn't want any change (who would in his position?), but the system is currently at his advantage.

I think I’ll be looking for Brave New World and the Night City, hope the dev don’t spend too much time on tuning and more on new content overall. I'm not interested in new characters either, I just want to collect the missing characters (maybe if you implement the collector's souls I proposed? http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?4956-My-suggestions-for-updates)

[tex-0775]

Prisoner just went from 'Elite' to 'Unwanted'!!! With the pathetic drop rates game is becoming very disheartening! No wonder everyone is leaving! For the 100th time,point system SUCKS!!! Bugs make it 10x worse!!! The 'free' game Maiden wanted is dead!!!

Well said, the game is becoming more and more like the story of the wobbly table. Cut of a bit of one of the legs and find yourself with another wobbly table, cut of a bit of another leg......you get the idea. In the end there was no table ;)

tex (soon to have a neutered roster) ;)

[PerthEddie]

You guys talking about World of Warcraft just makes me think of one thing..........

LLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYY Jenkins!!!!!

[Sag7272]

After digesting & reading some about this upcoming update...

Won't make friends but...

•The Prisoner,
if passive agression is to become a buff, it should keep power on every opponents... After all it can now be cleansed, immunity prevents it ect..
It's not nearly as unbearable as it used too by any means..
To me having his passive as a buff is already enough to neutralize him easily... HH, Artillery Dog, Death Dog, immunity tallismans can all pass over him easily & just leave a single hitting toon without much resources... Not his only counter anymore if it's a buff & by much!

•AoP,
Wouldn't be that bad if he wasn't that week to begin with, storm is awesome but can't now compensate all his downsides like it used too by avoiding many first turn downfall.. still have a use but as niche one who makes regret the 10 shards I've put in... This very week!
Maybe he would benefit from the first turn 50% work read earlier instead of rendering him useless..

•Void,
To me, void problem is not as much damage than a too high chance to debuff, many characters don't have choice to jump in & remove any shield or immunity from team most of the time... Hence over use of every true damage toons around the arena since it's the only way to "Dumbproff" a defense, don't see that change anytime soon... Arena will still run mostly on true DMG toons, even worse now every other shields trigger the same way & all let pass true DMG...
Void still being the worse by far as it prevents use of a myriad of great characters that would be otherwise useful by fear they would be a handicap..
Maybe 15% debuff would be enough & let ppl be more creative with toons choices..

•AoF
Seriously.. With all the Droid, Mummys & SSD out there he's among the only reason fights can go fast & one of the best answer to taunt, again an answer.. Again a nerf.. Already sees Droid & SSD HP scale goes down because this nerf will empower them.. By much since grinding down 40k will only gets longer..

Those are my 2 cents, feel free to disagree if you want but stay polite... Or I won't either ;)

[DaveMurray]

Jofer could do 3 vortex sacrifices by dropping only dupes so he could keep 1 of each in case he needs to adapt his strategy. I guess he was super lucky...

I play since the begining of the game (June or July was it?) and kept all my dupes >=4*. Even if I update them all to 5* and max level due to the fact that upgrading a character to the next level does not increase its value significantly (which is unfair for the effort required to get those 3* Evo, I can be happy if I can update 1 char/week but I had 0 in a month to balance with that...) I might just have enough to do 1 vortex sacrifice. What I can only complain to is the RNG for not dropping me better dupes so I could do better sacrifice. Sweet...

Ranking as Eternal or King in PvP gives you additional skill shards, so we have an elite of a few 25 players who are gaining more flexibility in their strategy by getting additional shards (probably keeping a stack to adapt to the next tuning, which I would do too...). And the other players have no chance to compete with them because by the time we've catch up by upgrading 1-2 chars, the next tuning arrives and frustrates you...

I have 50 troopers and play them everyday, but I don't get more than 1 crystal shard every 4 days, so not all my troopers are doing their part of the job (thanks a lot those who do by the way and enjoy the ride while you can to the others :P) and there is no solution coming to figure out how many points did my trooper bring me in the last 7-14 days which would be an excellent statistic.

Clearly I don't know what strategy now to adopt. Do I try to collect 30 skill shards (about 15 weeks) and then figure out what is the trend to setup a good team? That won't help me much anyway because the gap between me and the top 25 will just have gotten bigger. When attacking you have to adapt to the defending team, so the more skill shards you have, the more you get and the stronger you remain....

I understand that Jofer doesn't want any change (who would in his position?), but the system is currently at his advantage.

I think I’ll be looking for Brave New World and the Night City, hope the dev don’t spend too much time on tuning and more on new content overall. I'm not interested in new characters either, I just want to collect the missing characters (maybe if you implement the collector's souls I proposed? http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?4956-My-suggestions-for-updates)

Totally agree!
When i spent 78 naut souls f.e. and get nothing but 3* dupes i can't complete a proper sacrifice to get shards and can't compete in pvp to achieve a good place.
I only sacrifice dupes and i use 50 troopers everyday, i grind 24/7 and i invested a lot of money since i started playing but still can't do anything.
So yeah Jofer and a few other "lucky" guys may agree that we don't need to get back our shards from nerfed toons because they have them all fully sharded but i am thinking more of the future of this game and when every week 3-4 troopers quit this feature is not bright.

[Sidney]

Grim Reaper Eddie can be a terror, but the crazy damage builds (typically all Holy Talismans) also means that he's really not all that durable, so he still has his answers. Definitely someone we'll be keeping an eye out for.


Ok... I know my comment won't be very popular with some, but I'm glad that GRE will be left alone. He is a reward for completing the game and at 28 skill shards to get him maxed out, I think he deserves to be very strong. If he wasn't then why would people invest that many skill shards in him. As Sparton mentioned, he really isn't that durable... so sure he can do massive damage but provisions need to be made to try and make him more resilient in battle. Maybe I'm bias because I invested all the skill shards in him, but if he was neutered, there could be riots... :D

[angelkelly]

I'm surprise some of you guys have mention void shields as a problem.
When you will still have to encounter Sentinel and Warrior Pyro Soldier.
Who will still have a 65% chance of inflicting flame over time, with a 35% of removing beneficial effects every turn.
Guess you guys didn't think they were op. Since they are equivalent to void shields.

Anyways....the next op toons I see in my line up, is Corrupt General stun chances, Sentinel & Warrior Pyro Soldier flame percentage, & Sentinel Souless Demon taunt ability. Other then that I like the changes you guys have made. But i hope you guys cancel Corrupt Rescuer from the list as she is already good as she is.

[Kutte]

well... 65% and then 35% is not very much compared to 100% (felt) on voids.
if the tunings work as advertised, CG/SSD/Pyros won't be a real threat - at least with the current "AI"

[Jofer16]

You guys talking about World of Warcraft just makes me think of one thing..........

LLLLLLLLLLEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYY Jenkins!!!!!

Yes! Also love the Onyxia whelp clip... "MANY WHELPS! HANDLE IT!!" lol

[Jofer16]

I was a hardcore grinder in Wow man. I just left it like a year ago. My 2 greatest grinds are 2 achievements "insane in the membrane" and "Hero of shattrath", the first one took me a year and a half to complete, that's why the reward is the title "the insane" wich I used until I left the game. Lol. You can check it out.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/ragnaros/Kazhar/achievement#81:15273

By the way 3 skill shards per week sounds so sweet.

I knew I liked you for some reason! haha Wow that is an "insane" grind. I think one of my toughest was the Winterspring Frostsaber mount, took months of playing hours and hours everyday to grind that damn thing, but I was one of the few on my server with it.

Ok sorry everyone, I'll stop with the thread hijacking now :)

[Sag7272]

I'm surprise some of you guys have mention void shields as a problem.
When you will still have to encounter Sentinel and Warrior Pyro Soldier.
Who will still have a 65% chance of casting flame over time, with a 35% of removing beneficial effects every turn.
Guess you guys didn't think they were op. Since they are equivalent to void shields.


... From the last who talked about it,
Never said they where OP (well not in the meaning)
Said tey restrict real bad the usable toon pool because AI throw himself in every time & debuff the whole team nearly every times, hence the over use of the small number of true DMG toons as nauseam everywhere...A thing that won't change with upcoming update while it's the goal targeted..

Flame for it's part is built with skill shards & can be countered by any cleanse or immunity... Kind of a different animal.. Think everyone saw those everywhere as they aren't that rare..Even have all pyros myself...

Personally don't mind void shields even built 3 sets... But on another hand everyone is tired of seeing the same toons in every defense & it's one of the main reasons..

[CanyptianFit]

1. With the proposed changes to the prisoner, IMHO, you are making him a 4* toon. I really think if you go forward with these changes to him, he should be changed to 4*. Otherwise, if you want to keep him 5*, what you've proposed isn't the answer. I don't have him, just for the record.

2. Question. With the DDog changes being proposed, does anything counter the passive? If one has immunity or invisibility active, does that counter the remove beneficial effects passive from applying to those toons? If the whole team is invisible, will it still remove all beneficial effects on up to 2 toons?

3. Like many others have suggested, please be gentle on the AoF. He's been nerfed hard already, and while he is present on some teams, he isn't widely used. For full disclosure, I currently use him on my defense, but I never went tauntfest. I refused to shard the SSD.

4. While I like that your enhancing the nomad, in his current state still very risky. You'd have to use mirage last and hope to get invisibility active on toons. One way to get him more into arena is to ensure that after you use mirage, invisibility won't go away if a toon attacks that SAME round. Otherwise it's a big gamble and not worth the risk.

My 2 cents.

[scott-5496]

After digesting & reading some about this upcoming update...

Won't make friends but...

•The Prisoner,
if passive agression is to become a buff, it should keep power on every opponents... After all it can now be cleansed, immunity prevents it ect..
It's not nearly as unbearable as it used too by any means..
To me having his passive as a buff is already enough to neutralize him easily... HH, Artillery Dog, Death Dog, immunity tallismans can all pass over him easily & just leave a single hitting toon without much resources... Not his only counter anymore if it's a buff & by much!

•AoP,
Wouldn't be that bad if he wasn't that week to begin with, storm is awesome but can't now compensate all his downsides like it used too by avoiding many first turn downfall.. still have a use but as niche one who makes regret the 10 shards I've put in... This very week!
Maybe he would benefit from the first turn 50% work read earlier instead of rendering him useless..

•Void,
To me, void problem is not as much damage than a too high chance to debuff, many characters don't have choice to jump in & remove any shield or immunity from team most of the time... Hence over use of every true damage toons around the arena since it's the only way to "Dumbproff" a defense, don't see that change anytime soon... Arena will still run mostly on true DMG toons, even worse now every other shields trigger the same way & all let pass true DMG...
Void still being the worse by far as it prevents use of a myriad of great characters that would be otherwise useful by fear they would be a handicap..
Maybe 15% debuff would be enough & let ppl be more creative with toons choices..

•AoF
Seriously.. With all the Droid, Mummys & SSD out there he's among the only reason fights can go fast & one of the best answer to taunt, again an answer.. Again a nerf.. Already sees Droid & SSD HP scale goes down because this nerf will empower them.. By much since grinding down 40k will only gets longer..

Those are my 2 cents, feel free to disagree if you want but stay polite... Or I won't either ;)

I agree with all the points you make. I am not keen on nerfs on any toons unless they have things like scaling issues or wrong talisman slots and that sort of thing. If the games keeps going down this road without moveable skill shards it is going to annoy more than it helps I think. I have a Prisoner and he is great and rare and should be treated as such, the same for AoP (not got him but really wanted him) I would love a Cyborg as well as several other toons and Eddies but RNG has kept them off my team. It is good to see other rares getting more good stuff on them - like the Nomad and Samurai (both of which I have) but there changes are not going to fundamentally change their roles - just give them more hit power. The Prisoner looks not to be a benched guy - it was great to have him and sorry to see him go like this but hey ho. Now what about the GRE and his OP ness? I get it - he need loads of shards and people should have his benefits because of the time invested in him but if Prisoner is nerfed to uselessness why not GRE which at the moment is the only toon that can kick my ass badly - I have not lost to any team that does not have a fully sharded (or mostly sharded) GRE so that must say something (though the GRE does still need the RNG to favour him for it be utter devastation.

I don't suppose any of it matters but really this would be so much easier to take if skill shards could be moved!

[Frost]

- If you attack and win, gain points and iron coins (nothing changes);
- If you attack and lose, lose points (a lot);
- If your defense is broken, YOU LOSE NOTHING (AI is dumb don't punish us);
- If your defense holds, GAIN 1 SOW, 10 IRONITE, IRON COINS AND 30K GOLD;
- REMOVE IRONITE REWARDS FROM ARENA. People get refunded every week, no effort or spending money here;
- RESET POINTS TO 1000 FOR EVERYONE.

[Hypnos]

The main reason is that it requires a code fix and there are many competing priorities with limited engineering resources available (i.e. To get a fix for this, we'd need to take a coder off character fragments or Brave New World, which pushes those features out, etc). That being said, I will look at prioritizing this skill fix in the queue of ability bugs we have.

-Kaz


Oh shit, I definitely see how that could be a problem for some people, especially if you're not aware or are fighting two at the same time.

All I can tell you right now is it seems the glow on the Assassin one is brighter/more saturated, but the body colour is nearly black. Pumping your device brightness might help in the meantime as well.

Cheers guys.

However, I must say that it looks like you're turning PvP from a tauntfest into a trollfest. Unless there's something I'm missing, the troll will be in everyone's defense team since siege and passive aggression are being nerfed. This simply is not a viable solution. It will put those without a troll at a huge disadvantage before the battle has even begun.

Also, in the preliminary notes under skill changes, one entry states "wickerman dog". I'm guessing that should read "wickerdog of night" since he's the only wickerdog I know with the heal skill, right?

[HomemLivre]

I don't understand that much the complain about the Prisoner changes, the current way he works makes the game completely boring with the same toons everywhere and the same strategies and unbalance.
This patch will make everyone need to be creative and get out of the braindead prisoner way of play.
Im figuring out that all the other changes were necessary to balance this change on the Prisoner.

I really feel like I'm leaving Beta for the first time and will be able to use many other combinations of toons just becouse of this change on the Prisoner. So please guys, try to be happy now when we will have for the first time a chance to try some other combos.
I don't want to take the merit of some players, but if you feel confortable playing this way with your Prisoner and you dislike the fact that everyone will have a chance to play equal (or something like this) your not fighting for a balanced game, you just want to make YOUR gameplay easier.

[Ubajoa]

Sorry to bring wow again, but I think this would be great here. Back in early days in wow when a talent tree suffer critical changes they were full reset for free so people can choose talents again. That would be great here, I agree that skill shards shouldn't be removable always due to the rarity, but if a character suffer a huge nerf or buff (critical change) all the skill shards should be returned to the inventory so we can decide where to use them.

And please left the Angel of fear alone, no more nerf to him.

[Enti]

Not very keen on nerfing the prisoner... On the forum I constantly read how imbalanced the game is between prisoner and non-prisoner teams... Funny, because my def rate was constantly below 25% with prisoner after week 3 (21-23%), and I do not feel I have a poor choice on toons and their talismans on my defense. That means people do find the way to counter him already.

Now what will happen is that a set of immunity talisman or a hellhound paired with warrior pyro will put the prisoner out of the game completely.
Gimp paired with death dog MIGHT be a solution, but that again takes you to the miraculous RNG playgrounds.
Yes, I know, I am biased because I have him.

Someone said earlier that the best solution would be to simply disqualify him from arena and leave him untouched. I second this idea.

[Nicko]

The only thing I really dislike here is the change on Siege.

The Prisoner nerf is huge - but I agree something was needed. I think - as someone mentioned - saying he's a 4* character is right on the money.

But Homem - don't you see that if they didn't adjust Siege the AoP would just become the next Prisoner? Fair is fair

I think whatever the developers do we'll adapt. I have no problem with a Prisoner nerf (though was expecting something less extreme) but am glad they're adjusting the other toons that affect passives as well

[Ubajoa]

my def rate was constantly below 25% with prisoner after week 3 (21-23%)

It has been well established that the prisoner inbalance is not in defense. His OPness is when you are attacking and the prisoner can give you almost a 99% win. Which is not fair compared to people who don't have one.

[Enti]

It has been well established that the prisoner inbalance is not in defense. His OPness is when you are attacking and the prisoner can give you almost a 99% win. Which is not fair compared to people who don't have one.

That's true, I admit that I forgot this part of the equation.
On offense part I am unable to make a comparison as I obtained prisoner just before I jumped into PvP.

Definitely curious how the changes will affect PvP and who will be the new gimp

[Silentknight]

It has been well established that the prisoner inbalance is not in defense. His OPness is when you are attacking and the prisoner can give you almost a 99% win. Which is not fair compared to people who don't have one.

Not even close to 99% Need alot more toons for that! Not everyone has rosters like Nicko's! Sry bud,just sayin

[HomemLivre]

The Prisoner nerf is huge - but I agree something was needed. I think - as someone mentioned - saying he's a 4* character is right on the money.

But Homem - don't you see that if they didn't adjust Siege the AoP would just become the next Prisoner? Fair is fair

I think whatever the developers do we'll adapt. I have no problem with a Prisoner nerf (though was expecting something less extreme) but am glad they're adjusting the other toons that affect passives as well


Im figuring out that all the other changes were necessary to balance this change on the Prisoner.
As I said today I understand now that all this changes was to balance the game becouse of the changes on the Prisoner and Im ok now with this nerf on AoP, its sad but he will be benched.


It has been well established that the prisoner inbalance is not in defense. His OPness is when you are attacking and the prisoner can give you almost a 99% win. Which is not fair compared to people who don't have one.
And I completely agree with Carlos, hes OPness is on attack, as I mentioned before that I cant even care less with him on defenses (but Im getting bored to only use the same team agains prisoner teams, game deserves a change)

[Ubajoa]

Not even close to 99% Need alot more toons for that! Not everyone has rosters like Nicko's! Sry bud,just sayin

OK. You're right 99% is not only the prisoner but let's say 90%+. For example 1 thing most people complaint about is the taunt fest which prisoner teams are not part of, cause prisoner blocks siege so the whole team can use immunity talismans. Just to expose 1 case.

[Jofer16]

Sorry to bring wow again, but I think this would be great here. Back in early days in wow when a talent tree suffer critical changes they were full reset for free so people can choose talents again. That would be great here, I agree that skill shards shouldn't be removable always due to the rarity, but if a character suffer a huge nerf or buff (critical change) all the skill shards should be returned to the inventory so we can decide where to use them.

And please left the Angel of fear alone, no more nerf to him.

This is a great idea. Don't make shards removable, but in the event a character goes through a major retuning, shards should be reset and given back on said character. Would eliminate buyers remorse substantially.

[Silentknight]

OK. You're right 99% is not only the prisoner but let's say 90%+. For example 1 thing most people complaint about is the taunt fest which prisoner teams are not part of, cause prisoner blocks siege so the whole team can use immunity talismans. Just to expose 1 case.
At work,doing troopers,lmao! Quickly,immunitizing an entire team costs HP. Outside arena,as a collector,the prisoner just became alot less valuable! Not that I care but shards should be returned. Would love to know how people who just pulled him feel! Ugh!!! Not a 5*! Always thought the point of this game was to collect the elite toons. If this keeps going everyone will be able to beat everyone,which may sound good but then the game becomes even more Pay2Win! You need elite toons to give 'lucky' pull teams a chance. Gotta go!

[Silentknight]

This is a great idea. Don't make shards removable, but in the event a character goes through a major retuning, shards should be reset and given back on said character. Would eliminate buyers remorse substantially.

Been mentioned several times b4...deaf ears

[gmac]

Hi everybody

Prisoner and AoP nerfs
I'm ok with those, I think on offense devs wanted everybody to be able to use the new talismans, and on defense let them be able to have passives too, even when facing Prisoners teams. I will still use my AoP on offense, great against shields. (yes, fights will take longer I believe)

AoF
Please leave him alone! He is ok, already been nerfed and one of the best warriors to counter sentinel dominance. He is taking the blame from GRE slash being out of order!

Voids
They proc near 100% of the time, that's the real problem.

Skill shards
I think they should be removable, at least after each major update. But better if removable all time. Why?
1 - It would help sacrifice - at one point all players would have enough skill shards to play around, so we would add them to some toons to get greater essence value. It's hard to gather toons for a decent sacrifice. (last 2 tiers).
2 - It would make us try much more toons at the Arena, I would experiment a lot of different compositions. That is what this update is all about after all...
3 - It would make it easier to newer players to catch up.

(Oh, one last thing, being able to look at other players rosters maybe ok, but at talismans selection and skill shard allocation... that is too much)

Cheers
Gmac

[surfingwithdje]

With that nerf (AoP and prisoner) every defense team will bring a red troll ... Is anybody think his reflect shield should be remove with the same update? (just for say, i have a troll, and sacrifice another one, but i think he will ruin the game in pvp)

Otherwise this character tuning can change the pvp playing, i'm not against this, let's see how that will works ....
But this is a massive nerf for those 2 characters and it make prejudice to players who have invested a lot of time and money in the game for getting skillshards, we just should be able to recover the skillshards invested in those 2 characters... (because they will become totally useless in pvp and pve)

My 2 cents...

[Jofer16]

(Oh, one last thing, being able to look at other players rosters maybe ok, but at talismans selection and skill shard allocation... that is too much)

Cheers
Gmac


This would be nice as well. I know since I found out Shaolin was posting screenshots of my account publicly, from whatever that other tools name was that took them, I've been scared to add new troopers and forum users to my list not knowing if they actually want to be buddies, or just to be sneaky backstabbers. One bad apple spoils the bunch.

I'm losing Trooper points because I'm sure at least 50% of my troopers aren't daily, but don't feel comfortable adding 30 new ones. I've had the same OGs since day 1 only replacing people when they go inactive for long periods of time, stick with who you came up with :)

[Tritium]

This is a great idea. Don't make shards removable, but in the event a character goes through a major retuning, shards should be reset and given back on said character. Would eliminate buyers remorse substantially.

I like this idea as well. It definitely would generate a lot more goodwill overall after nerfs are done.


Hi everybody

Prisoner and AoP nerfs
I'm ok with those, I think on offense devs wanted everybody to be able to use the new talismans, and on defense let them be able to have passives too, even when facing Prisoners teams. I will still use my AoP on offense, great against shields. (yes, fights will take longer I believe)

AoF
Please leave him alone! He is ok, already been nerfed and one of the best warriors to counter sentinel dominance. He is taking the blame from GRE slash being out of order!

Voids
They proc near 100% of the time, that's the real problem.

Skill shards
I think they should be removable, at least after each major update. But better if removable all time. Why?
1 - It would help sacrifice - at one point all players would have enough skill shards to play around, so we would add them to some toons to get greater essence value. It's hard to gather toons for a decent sacrifice. (last 2 tiers).
2 - It would make us try much more toons at the Arena, I would experiment a lot of different compositions. That is what this update is all about after all...
3 - It would make it easier to newer players to catch up.

(Oh, one last thing, being able to look at other players rosters maybe ok, but at talismans selection and skill shard allocation... that is too much)

Cheers
Gmac

I agree with your analysis on everything. If the devs are hesitant to consider making skill shards removable, they should definitely consider the refund after a nerf. Also, #saveAOF ;):cool:


With that nerf (AoP and prisoner) every defense team will bring a red troll ... Is anybody think his reflect shield should be remove with the same update? (just for say, i have a troll, and sacrifice another one, but i think he will ruin the game in pvp)

Otherwise this character tuning can change the pvp playing, i'm not against this, let's see how that will works ....
But this is a massive nerf for those 2 characters and it make prejudice to players who have invested a lot of time and money in the game for getting skillshards, we just should be able to recover the skillshards invested in those 2 characters... (because they will become totally useless in pvp and pve)

My 2 cents...

Yes! I'm glad someone else is on the same wavelength here. After reading through the posts, I was quickly coming to the same conclusion that you did ─ Troll shouldn't have a reflect shield, or any damage-inducing shield for that matter, due to the difficulty in countering him now. The devs should consider making the Troll a completely defensive character (which will still have a LOT of use), rather than a hybrid of the two where his passive can also wreck serious face. Get rid of his damage shields, but keep his defensive ones (maybe even buff the defensive ones ─ whatever makes him more balanced). Sounds like a good solution to me!

[Sparton_LOTB]

1. With the proposed changes to the prisoner, IMHO, you are making him a 4* toon. I really think if you go forward with these changes to him, he should be changed to 4*. Otherwise, if you want to keep him 5*, what you've proposed isn't the answer. I don't have him, just for the record.

We have no plans to change the rarity of characters.


2. Question. With the DDog changes being proposed, does anything counter the passive? If one has immunity or invisibility active, does that counter the remove beneficial effects passive from applying to those toons? If the whole team is invisible, will it still remove all beneficial effects on up to 2 toons?

The only real answer right now (other than killing it) is the Prisoner, because nothing else has Passive Block.


3. Like many others have suggested, please be gentle on the AoF. He's been nerfed hard already, and while he is present on some teams, he isn't widely used. For full disclosure, I currently use him on my defense, but I never went tauntfest. I refused to shard the SSD.

You're not accounting for attack team usage, but even if you only account for defense team usage, he's still the go-to Warrior to the exclusion of nearly every other non-Eddie Warrior in the game.

Ultimately, the adjustment here to his Attack is not that substantial; he's going from effectively tied for best maxed out Attack in the game to being higher Attack than every character that isn't basically tied for highest Attack in the game (from approx 1750 to approx 1500 at 5 star level 100). We really are just trying to give other high-Attack-focused characters a bit more of an edge without power creeping everyone else above him.


4. While I like that your enhancing the nomad, in his current state still very risky. You'd have to use mirage last and hope to get invisibility active on toons. One way to get him more into arena is to ensure that after you use mirage, invisibility won't go away if a toon attacks that SAME round. Otherwise it's a big gamble and not worth the risk.

We definitely don't want to change Invisibility in that manner, as there's a high risk of something unintended going through (either a bug which causes more problems or a possible OP combo when trying to abuse Extra Turns). He can be a bit unreliable on defense, but we nonetheless would like to see him more on offense and defense, and these changes we think will help push him in that direction.


However, I must say that it looks like you're turning PvP from a tauntfest into a trollfest. Unless there's something I'm missing, the troll will be in everyone's defense team since siege and passive aggression are being nerfed. This simply is not a viable solution. It will put those without a troll at a huge disadvantage before the battle has even begun.

We definitely expect him to still be a popular character, but the reduction of free damage from his shields will mean he's a more passive and defensive character, and the increased reliability of other passives means we hope to see other defensive options be potentially more synergistic with your team depending on what characters you're planning to use.


Also, in the preliminary notes under skill changes, one entry states "wickerman dog". I'm guessing that should read "wickerdog of night" since he's the only wickerdog I know with the heal skill, right?

Whoops, good catch. We'll make sure that's correct in the release patch notes.


Voids
They proc near 100% of the time, that's the real problem.

There's definitely a bug where augments like Void Shields are proccing more than we should, and we aim to fix that as soon as possible, but it's a tech issue, so I can't make any guarantees.

That said, we feel that even if that were in order the real threat of Void Shields is it's removal powers while also reducing damage to your characters, so we feel that softening the reflected damage is an appropriate action to encourage use of other purple talismans.


With that nerf (AoP and prisoner) every defense team will bring a red troll ... Is anybody think his reflect shield should be remove with the same update? (just for say, i have a troll, and sacrifice another one, but i think he will ruin the game in pvp)


Yes! I'm glad someone else is on the same wavelength here. After reading through the posts, I was quickly coming to the same conclusion that you did ─ Troll shouldn't have a reflect shield, or any damage-inducing shield for that matter, due to the difficulty in countering him now. The devs should consider making the Troll a completely defensive character (which will still have a LOT of use), rather than a hybrid of the two where his passive can also wreck serious face. Get rid of his damage shields, but keep his defensive ones (maybe even buff the defensive ones ─ whatever makes him more balanced). Sounds like a good solution to me!

Removing his Reflect Shield as well was definitely considered, but realistically, damage from Magma Shields on characters who survived was way outstripping the damage that reflect shields could ever hope to do. We feel the random allocation of 1/3 of the time having a damaging shield instead of 2/3 is a fine place for him to be in.

[mjmxiii]

So reading through all the WoW posts... 😴 I'm glad to see very few people wishing this game had more 12 hour grindfests... f*ck all that noise! 😆 ...always reminds me of that one South park episode lol!

I also read that skill shards should "not be removable".... then read, "except in situations where a NerF has been applied" ...LMFAO! Make up your minds... should they or shouldn't they?

Simple yes or no question,

If you read that a removable skill shards feature was part of the update, would you be ok with it?

[Jofer16]

So reading through all the WoW posts... 😴 I'm glad to see very few people wishing this game had more 12 hour grindfests... f*ck all that noise! 😆 ...always reminds me of that one South park episode lol!

I also read that skill shards should "not be removable".... then read, "except in situations where a NerF has been applied" ...LMFAO! Make up your minds... should they or shouldn't they?

Simple yes or no question,

If you read that a removable skill shards feature was part of the update, would you be ok with it?

I was actually going to quote that South Park episode yesterday, "MOM! MORE HOT POCKETS!" lol. I'm pretty sure not too many people would be against it, except maybe the fully stocked accounts worrying about people catching up to them. It's funny since sacrifice came out I'm finding old toons i put shards in back when I had no idea what I was doing, only about a half dozen of them but characters like Magus Newborn of Light. Easy to see who I started the game with :)

[Silentknight]

So reading through all the WoW posts... �� I'm glad to see very few people wishing this game had more 12 hour grindfests... f*ck all that noise! �� ...always reminds me of that one South park episode lol!

I also read that skill shards should "not be removable".... then read, "except in situations where a NerF has been applied" ...LMFAO! Make up your minds... should they or shouldn't they?

Simple yes or no question,

If you read that a removable skill shards feature was part of the update, would you be ok with it?
They shouldn't be removable,that's part of the game,deciding who to shard. But when a toon gets a major nerf,players should have the option

[Jofer16]

They shouldn't be removable,that's part of the game,deciding who to shard. But when a toon gets a major nerf,players should have the option

Only downside on this is the devs take a bunch more heat. Whats the exact definition of a "major" nerf? Every time there's tweaks and shards aren't reset, people will riot. Or would it have to be any change to the characters mechanics? Just thinking a bit more in depth on it.

[Silentknight]

Only downside on this is the devs take a bunch more heat. Whats the exact definition of a "major" nerf? Every time there's tweaks and shards aren't reset, people will riot. Or would it have to be any change to the characters mechanics? Just thinking a bit more in depth on it.

As I said,I don't care. 1 day they'll all be sharded,lol. But I don't blame others. Any nerf...it's up to players

[mjmxiii]

I was actually going to quote that South Park episode yesterday, "MOM! MORE HOT POCKETS!" lol. I'm pretty sure not too many people would be against it, except maybe the fully stocked accounts worrying about people catching up to them. It's funny since sacrifice came out I'm finding old toons i put shards in back when I had no idea what I was doing, only about a half dozen of them but characters like Magus Newborn of Light. Easy to see who I started the game with :)

Ha! That was the best! F'ing Cartman lol... my bro tried to get me into WoW but when he told me about the gameplay and how much time I would need to play "catch up" my reply was, "oh hell no dude, you're tripping!" ...and he could not stop laughing at my level of disgust 😆

Yeah man have a few chars like Holy Smoke and Wicker Man that have a skill shard each lol... played the game for a couple months before I figured out those didn't come around very often. Didn't find the forum until last October lol so was really lost in the woods for quite some time.... still kinda am lol

[Mizrael]

One funny thing is, that you first made a poll, to ask the community how to counter "the one"...and the players suggested 1.talismans 2.PvP ban 3.nerf
The talisman solution didn't pan out as expected. even worse, it kinda backfired...(sorry, but i believe that those rather silly talisman sets, introduced for a typical overprice, were not what the majority of the players was expecting)

Suggestion 2. was skipped (guess due to lack of skill or a shortage of the programmers)

So you jumped straight to solution nr3...and big time
(i don't own a prisoner)

Just like many others here, i'm not a big fan of nerfing. especially when it all happens just because of PvP.
you have been warned that the game at it's current state wasn't ready for it, yet you seemed to be completely obsessed with it and pushed it ahead of any new PvM content (its been 7 months now since LoL, if im not mistaken. SEVEN months of farming GoD! :P ).

What we have got is a rushed PvP environment full of flaws: OP characters, glitchy interface (winning streak flames,victory points going up and down, etc.), uneven attack/def system (some get attacked 40 some 600 times a week), dodgy coin toss, newly introduced self attack, aso.

Solution? randomly swinging the nerf bat around. as you've (Sparton) yourself said: You hope....(a dev should know,not hope)
So that means that if you don't hit this time,you won't hesitate to swing again.
And the players have to pay for it! in your own prices-3 skill shards cost 50$. so you will practically flush down around 200$ of some players money (just by nerfing 2 characters)

but @Sparton, i admire your art of the keyboard. you manage to avoid the real questions and requests so smoothly that it almost makes the players forget what they asked for. they just gets swept under the carpet. in this case it's the old "removable (or at least refunded) skill shards".

Look at it this way:
to have a team of fully sharded Eddie+2 or 3 characters you require at least 30 skill shards. that would be the lowest target everyone would try to reach. To be able to freely swap shards between any chars you would need about 60 (f.e. GRE+wickerman+AoP+AG).
It's not a small number.

Positives:
-You could still sell your 50$ packs for the impatient ones or those who can't be bothered to swap them all the time
-This would really encourage the players to think outside of the box. they would try different teams in the arena-hence needing more resets=more $$$ for devs from ironite
-It might help with future character balancing as players could try every character they own, potentially finding some new hidden gems or OPs.

actually the only valid reason why you won't consider it and choose to overlook it is that it's not in the programming powers of your team...

[Silentknight]

Honestly, I think the biggest problem is the stupid A.I. Fix that & let's see how these toons are supposed to perform!!!

[Hypnos]

Whoops, good catch. We'll make sure that's correct in the release patch notes.

No worries. Also noticed under skill changes it mentions "harpy warrior" followed by "magus/warrior". Does this mean both the harpy and masked harpy will receive the guardian passive or just the warrior harpy will?

[Sparton_LOTB]

No worries. Also noticed under skill changes it mentions "harpy warrior" followed by "magus/warrior". Does this mean both the harpy and masked harpy will receive the guardian passive or just the warrior harpy will?

Ah, good catch again. We do mean Warrior Harpy and Magus Masked Harpy.

[Tritium]

Sparton, I've noticed that certain basic attacks don't seem to trigger invisibility talismans. Often they are basic attacks that require tapping 3 times in a row before the toon attacks. For instance, I have a set of invisibility talismans on my Cyborg and his present basic attack, Tase (1-tap), procs invisibility as often as it should. However, I've used his past basic, Dead Eye (3-tap), pretty often (well over 50 times) and have yet to see it proc his invisibility once. I'm wondering if this is only a problem that affects 3-tap basic attack self-buff talismans (e.g. invisibility, pierce, penetrating, etc.) as I know for a fact that enemy debuffs (e.g. blind, paralysis, freeze, etc.) work on 3-tap basic attacks (case in point: Mummy Eddie). Not sure if you and the team were aware of this.

[Pagan-3014]

Let's see, GRE, check, prisoner. Check. Angel of pain. Check. These are my 3 primary attackers. So naturally this is where the vast majority of my skill shards went. (26 for GRE atm). If you wanna tweek them, fine. Your game. Your rules. I'm just saying that's a LOT of trooper badges (and money on my part) to waste on skill shards. If you want me to continue to drop a dime here and there, please take your time and think of how you could do right by your players. Anyway. Love the game

[mjmxiii]

Ah, good catch again. We do mean Warrior Harpy and Magus Masked Harpy.

Looking foward to this change as they have always been faves of mine

[druid138]

Sparton, I've noticed that certain basic attacks don't seem to trigger invisibility talismans. Often they are basic attacks that require tapping 3 times in a row before the toon attacks. For instance, I have a set of invisibility talismans on my Cyborg and his present basic attack, Tase (1-tap), procs invisibility as often as it should. However, I've used his past basic, Dead Eye (3-tap), pretty often (well over 50 times) and have yet to see it proc his invisibility once. I'm wondering if this is only a problem that affects 3-tap basic attack self-buff talismans (e.g. invisibility, pierce, penetrating, etc.) as I know for a fact that enemy debuffs (e.g. blind, paralysis, freeze, etc.) work on 3-tap basic attacks (case in point: Mummy Eddie). Not sure if you and the team were aware of this.

Interesting comment. I've noticed something similar with marks that trigger on perfect attacks. I can't remember the details, but I'll pay more attention.

druid138-6195

[mjmxiii]

Let's see, GRE, check, prisoner. Check. Angel of pain. Check. These are my 3 primary attackers. So naturally this is where the vast majority of my skill shards went. (26 for GRE atm). If you wanna tweek them, fine. Your game. Your rules. I'm just saying that's a LOT of trooper badges (and money on my part) to waste on skill shards. If you want me to continue to drop a dime here and there, please take your time and think of how you could do right by your players. Anyway. Love the game

Well said Pagan, welcome to the party!

[Sparton_LOTB]

Sparton, I've noticed that certain basic attacks don't seem to trigger invisibility talismans. Often they are basic attacks that require tapping 3 times in a row before the toon attacks. For instance, I have a set of invisibility talismans on my Cyborg and his present basic attack, Tase (1-tap), procs invisibility as often as it should. However, I've used his past basic, Dead Eye (3-tap), pretty often (well over 50 times) and have yet to see it proc his invisibility once.

That is an issue with the data for Dead Eye, where it's not flagged to trigger augments. It should be a simple fix, so I'll see if that can make it into the next update.

[osiris0000]

Looking foward to this change as they have always been faves of mine

+1 to this. They are my fav also.

Here is my view about the updates..

Tuning updates are necessary, which i can understand. But the thing i see is we are losing the excitement about in-game content. So much grinding going on. For example, it would be super cool to getting the some in-game bosses into the game.

For example; like Goddess Aset, Goddess Sekhmet and God Horus.
Or Wrath and Beelzebub.. Or "The Beast"?.. I guess he would be the rarest one! (If it ever happen)

Actually, we have some in-game bosses like Wickerman, Nomad and Generals for example. Why don't we have more bosses as playable chars?

The thing is, i really miss first excitement of mythologic story line personally. I believe many players think the same way as i do. Even it will took long time to get the Night City content, it will be a fresh excitement to roll-in some in-game bosses into the game.

[Kaz_LOTB]

+1 to this. They are my fav also.

Here is my view about the updates..

Tuning updates are necessary, which i can understand. But the thing i see is we are losing the excitement about in-game content. So much grinding going on. For example, it would be super cool to getting the some in-game bosses into the game.

For example; like Goddess Aset, Goddess Sekhmet and God Horus.
Or Wrath and Beelzebub.. Or "The Beast"?.. I guess he would be the rarest one! (If it ever happen)

Actually, we have some in-game bosses like Wickerman, Nomad and Generals for example. Why don't we have more bosses as playable chars?

The thing is, i really miss first excitement of mythologic story line personally. I believe many players think the same way as i do. Even it will took long time to get the Night City content, it will be a fresh excitement to roll-in some in-game bosses into the game.

Oh, don't you worry. We feel exactly the same way. More details to come on more of that in the future...

-Kaz

[Silentknight]

+1 to this. They are my fav also.

Here is my view about the updates..

Tuning updates are necessary, which i can understand. But the thing i see is we are losing the excitement about in-game content. So much grinding going on. For example, it would be super cool to getting the some in-game bosses into the game.

For example; like Goddess Aset, Goddess Sekhmet and God Horus.
Or Wrath and Beelzebub.. Or "The Beast"?.. I guess he would be the rarest one! (If it ever happen)

Actually, we have some in-game bosses like Wickerman, Nomad and Generals for example. Why don't we have more bosses as playable chars?

The thing is, i really miss first excitement of mythologic story line personally. I believe many players think the same way as i do. Even it will took long time to get the Night City content, it will be a fresh excitement to roll-in some in-game bosses into the game.

Cuz after the prisoner nerf who would counter them??? Going backwards here!

[Jofer16]

Oh, don't you worry. We feel exactly the same way. More details to come on more of that in the future...

-Kaz

Crazy hard bosses with exclusive loot on refresh timers would be awesome (similar to secret locations, but really hard).

[Tritium]

That is an issue with the data for Dead Eye, where it's not flagged to trigger augments. It should be a simple fix, so I'll see if that can make it into the next update.

Awesome! Thanks for letting the programmers know.

[osiris0000]

Oh, don't you worry. We feel exactly the same way. More details to come on more of that in the future...

-Kaz

It's very good to hear! Because we have more cool bosses in the game and they will be really special if they join to book of souls. I really look forward to see what future updates will bring into the game.

[Kaz_LOTB]

Crazy hard bosses with exclusive loot on refresh timers would be awesome (similar to secret locations, but really hard).

Yep, also on our radar :)

-Kaz

[mjmxiii]

Oh, don't you worry. We feel exactly the same way. More details to come on more of that in the future...
H
-Kaz

Ok now... I have two fingers.

😝...my David after dentist moment...

This is a very interesting lil teaser post Kaz lol... let the speculation begin!

[Silentknight]

Funny how most of the loudest voices for nerfing the prisoner have no problem beating mine! I.E. sharing prisoner hunting strategies,new talismans seem to have worked! Which proves its not just the prisoner but a combination of toons. Maybe just maybe those teams belong at the top! Also funny how most don't have a problem with nerfing toons they don't have but protecting the ones they own. NF,take a look at how my defense % has dropped since week 1 & you really think castration is the answer? I mean my strategy hasn't changed??? Also keep in mind every nerf is making it harder & harder for noobs to complete PvE!
I am opposed to ANY nerf. Think you need to release new toons as counters & pay a little more attention to what you're releasing.
Loved the fact that the prisoner put you at another level. Same thing new talismans do. Has already been proven top ranks are attainable without the prisoner...just gunna cost you more! I.M.O. if you dont have certain elite toons or talismans then maybe you don't belong at the top. No offence...just saying. Where's the thrill in pulling a Prisoner now...gone!!! Already enough bitching about horrible drop rates...well it just got much,much worse!

[90mphyorker]

With the changes to Mummy Eddie's Taunt needed, would changing how taunt works on all characters alleviate peoples frustrations? Instead of AI controlling the attack how about we do. When taunted you can still only attack the character that taunted you but at least you are attacking and not AI. Would help when Taunters are for example using blind talismans as you are more likely to get a perfect hit and able to wrestle back control.

[Kutte]

nerfing all toons (i still don't have troll, prisoner or sharded GRE) to the same level with everyone using the same talismans can't be a solution.
another aproach could be that you can only have one CC effect/toon at a time. if you are frozen, you can't be stunned or taunted on top or maybe the oldest gets overriden by the newest.
and/or CC immunity for one turn after being disabled

[konstifik]

So, looking at the characters that will get a boost in this update, there are a few interesting ones. Warrior COTD looks to become a very powerful single target hitter. He hit pretty hard as it is. Magus Corrupt Rescuer is already an interesting character and increasing her effect chances for both skills will possibly make her a must have. Glad I pulled her recently! With skill shards her chance to steal positive effects are already 75 % so with upping both base and scaling of that, it should be at least 85 % after the update. And her AoE power skill have a 45 % chance to freeze if fully sharded, so that will be at least 55 % with this update. I will definitely be looking into sharding her.

The Wickerdog of Night might actually become interesting too. Increased magic and HP, increased damage of the basic attack and the heal skill is changed to cleanse.

Will be interesting to see what happens to The Nomad with removed special scaling for his attacks but increased magic stat and increased damage for both his skills.

[R1ck]

One of my troopers has magus CR, and she delivers pretty good damage, her basic is more 1700, put some more blues and is very strong. Also has a very high MR. I have not sharded mine because I have other priorities, finishing sharding my GRE is one of them. Then will have to think if death dog is worth to shard as well.

About point system, please don't make us lose so many points if AI is not as intelligent. It will never be, lose % will drop a lot and we don't deserve to lose so many points.

[Jofer16]

Yep, also on our radar :)

-Kaz

Great news!

Speaking of secret locations, just completed my 1000 clears achievement for the legendary soul 😀

[surfingwithdje]

And why don't just ban the prisoner of the arena and let him alone ? :) At least we can still use him in pve (for the dungeons) ^^
Make his passive as a beneficial effect (counter by immunity) AND works for 50% is too huge!

One or the other would have been a correct adjustement, not ?
(i don't care about use him in pvp, i have other characters with great skills to test in pvp! I just don't want seeing the most valuable character in the game to become a shitty one lol)

[Silentknight]

And why don't just ban the prisoner of the arena and let him alone ? :) At least we can still use him in pve (for the dungeons) ^^
Make his passive as a beneficial effect (counter by immunity) AND works for 50% is too huge!

One or the other would have been a correct adjustement, not ?
(i don't care about use him in pvp, i have other characters with great skills to test in pvp! I just don't want seeing the most valuable character in the game to become a shitty one lol)

Cuz if they ever want to introduce new toons/bosses which would hopefully be PvP playable ur gunna need him. Big mistake! IMO. Introduce an anti-Prisoner or others with same passive. Expand not castrate!

[Bradata]

Well, it looks like there will be a new sheriff in town and his name is Death Dog. Basically it's gonna be the same shit but we'll call it with different name. At least I got my hopes up for the BNW, it was said that the new talismans in store will be gone after April 8th so BNW will come soon after that ;)

[Tritium]

That is an issue with the data for Dead Eye, where it's not flagged to trigger augments. It should be a simple fix, so I'll see if that can make it into the next update.

Just realized this also affects his future basic, Calibrate, as well. :S

Do any other toons have this issue as well where 3-tap basic attacks aren't flagged to trigger talisman augments? I fear he may not be the only one.

[Silentknight]

Just realized this also affects his future basic, Calibrate, as well. :S

Do any other toons have this issue as well where 3-tap basic attacks aren't flagged to trigger talisman augments? I fear he may not be the only one.

Think Carriage Rider Eddie is the same. Quit trying to keep track of all the bugs...too many. Just playin with what they give us,good or bad.

[Tritium]

Think Carriage Rider Eddie is the same. Quit trying to keep track of all the bugs...too many. Just playin with what they give us,good or bad.

Sparton himself said that this one would be an easy fix due to it merely being flagged incorrectly. I'd rather do my part as a player and fan to help the devs make this game better for all of us wherever I can. If all of us were to stop reporting the bugs we find, the game wouldn't get any better ─ and nobody would benefit from that.

[Sparton_LOTB]

Just realized this also affects his future basic, Calibrate, as well. :S

Calibrate isn't supposed to trigger augments; only basic attack skills (ie stuff that doesn't cost power/fury and does damage to enemies) are supposed to be able to trigger augments. That includes defensive augments like Vanish and Void Shield.


Do any other toons have this issue as well where 3-tap basic attacks aren't flagged to trigger talisman augments? I fear he may not be the only one.


Sparton himself said that this one would be an easy fix due to it merely being flagged incorrectly. I'd rather do my part as a player and fan to help the devs make this game better for all of us wherever I can. If all of us were to stop reporting the bugs we find, the game wouldn't get any better ─ and nobody would benefit from that.

It's very possible we've misflagged a few more for Eddies due to how they have their additional skills. If you do notice any more specific cases, do let me know as you've done here and/or post in the Bug Reports (http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/forumdisplay.php?35) subforum, because this specific kind of bug is easy to fix when identified.

Thanks again for pointing out what you have!

[Silentknight]

Sparton himself said that this one would be an easy fix due to it merely being flagged incorrectly. I'd rather do my part as a player and fan to help the devs make this game better for all of us wherever I can. If all of us were to stop reporting the bugs we find, the game wouldn't get any better ─ and nobody would benefit from that.

Well after reporting a pretty significant scoring bug & being ignored... Also play alot at work & don't have time to find the 'right' spot. Might as well have a direct line to support

[Tritium]

Calibrate isn't supposed to trigger augments; only basic attack skills (ie stuff that doesn't cost power/fury and does damage to enemies) are supposed to be able to trigger augments. That includes defensive augments like Vanish and Void Shield.

Ah, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the heads up!


Well after reporting a pretty significant scoring bug & being ignored... Also play alot at work & don't have time to find the 'right' spot. Might as well have a direct line to support

Well, something I've noticed is that the devs seem to respond most in these game update discussion threads, but I have no doubt that they still actively monitor the bugs section (even if they may not directly respond to a thread there). Customer support also is a good line to use. If you really want to reach them about an important bug, it probably wouldn't hurt to post in both places on the forums and to send an email to CS (yes, it's a lot of work to do, but we reap the benefits when the bugs are fixed).

Also, they're much more likely to respond to you if you are kind and respectful to them. If you haven't noticed by now, there are a small (but vocal) minority of certain players here who consistently take a venomous tone with the devs (I won't put anyone on blast...although Lord Schmeb definitely knows who I'm referring to here haha), and as such, they hardly ever get a response. Nobody goes to work wanting to mess up and disappoint their customers, so there's no point in pointing any vitriol at the people who want to make us happy.

[Shifter]

It's very possible we've misflagged a few more for Eddies due to how they have their additional skills. If you do notice any more specific cases, do let me know as you've done here and/or post in the Bug Reports subforum, because this specific kind of bug is easy to fix when identified.

Thanks again for pointing out what you have!

Spartan, The basic attack of the navigator "Charted Course" does not proc talismans, is this because it does no damage?

I really wish that AI would change on that. When Auto playing he seems to only do that move or the fury move. He must have the same AI as the mummy. He really does not need to do chartered course 3 times in a row, I would rather him do a little damage.

[druid138]

Also, they're much more likely to respond to you if you are kind and respectful to them . . . Nobody goes to work wanting to mess up and disappoint their customers, so there's no point in pointing any vitriol at the people who want to make us happy.

Totally agree, Tritium! We're all (players and devs) on the same team here, and we all benefit when the game succeeds.

druid138-6195

[Sparton_LOTB]

Spartan, The basic attack of the navigator "Charted Course" does not proc talismans, is this because it does no damage?

Correct.


I really wish that AI would change on that. When Auto playing he seems to only do that move or the fury move. He must have the same AI as the mummy. He really does not need to do chartered course 3 times in a row, I would rather him do a little damage.

We have identified an issue which caused him to use Charted Course frequently, and that will be fixed so he favours "Landfall" (his present basic) more in the next update.

[Silentknight]

Well, something I've noticed is that the devs seem to respond most in these game update discussion threads, but I have no doubt that they still actively monitor the bugs section (even if they may not directly respond to a thread there). Customer support also is a good line to use. If you really want to reach them about an important bug, it probably wouldn't hurt to post in both places on the forums and to send an email to CS (yes, it's a lot of work to do, but we reap the benefits when the bugs are fixed).

Also, they're much more likely to respond to you if you are kind and respectful to them. If you haven't noticed by now, there are a small (but vocal) minority of certain players here who consistently take a venomous tone with the devs (I won't put anyone on blast...although Lord Schmeb definitely knows who I'm referring to here haha), and as such, they hardly ever get a response. Nobody goes to work wanting to mess up and disappoint their customers, so there's no point in pointing any vitriol at the people who want to make us happy.

As I said,not alot of time. I.E. last post I was waiting for x-rays. Also feel devs need to be thick skinned considering the state of the game! Myself,and I know I'm not alone in this, I find 'those' type of people entertaining! Will only contact support if I get screwed outta rewards or something. Bigger problems to worry about!

[Jofer16]

any plans to show gunner CotD some love in the future? always been my 2nd favorite character behind prisoner and he's the original CotD as well... "black holes in his golden stare" :)

[mjmxiii]

any plans to show gunner CotD some love in the future? always been my 2nd favorite character behind prisoner and he's the original CotD as well... "black holes in his golden stare" :)

"God knows he wants to go home!"

He is pretty sick as is, wish I had him! One of my troopers champs

[PerthEddie]

One of my troopers has magus CR, and she delivers pretty good damage, her basic is more 1700, put some more blues and is very strong. Also has a very high MR.

Got a feeling we may have the same Trooper (ID starts Black)? I only added this Trooper on Thursday but after using that toon a couple of times I am impressed. I actually have one as well which I could shard to max right now. Not sure on a talisman build though. Seen someone say to put 3x Freeze and 3x Invisiblility bulwark on it. Trooper has something totally different. Anybody got any tips of a decent load out for it?

[kkkreg5]

Just saw this. AoF is getting nerfed again? On the other hand, happy to see the "tauntfest" will soon end...

[Sag7272]

Nothing about what have to be done but...
Seriously... How would you had react if back in October someone had told you that the humble (& almost spam) Mummy would be nerfed because of his OPness... :)

[Silentknight]

Nothing about what have to be done but...
Seriously... How would you had react if back in October someone had told you that the humble (& almost spam) Mummy would be nerfed because of his OPness... :)

^^^Doesn't say much,but when he does...

[RobG-9641]

Sparton's original bulletin points state a need for more diversity in the Arena. This tuning update seems very flawed in achieving that goal. Nerfing characters is unnecessary and unfair. The problem with the Arena is the Arena.

The Arena is repetitive due to Defense requires 4 characters. A way to achieve more variety and balance (since AI is equally unreliable for everyone) is to let players choose 2 Eddies and 6 support characters. The AI would randomly pick an Eddie and 3 teammates at the start of the battle. This will at least add variety and give reason to use characters otherwise not being used on defense.

Another option for Offense is to implement the system of only being able to use a character once in the Arena until game does the daily reset. Inventory can hold 100+ characters. Make skill shards easier to get.

More skill shards and limiting repetition of character usage eliminates need to nerf characters and gives incentive to build up more and different characters.

[mjmxiii]

Sparton's original bulletin points state a need for more diversity in the Arena. This tuning update seems very flawed in achieving that goal. Nerfing characters is unnecessary and unfair. The problem with the Arena is the Arena.

The Arena is repetitive due to Defense requires 4 characters. A way to achieve more variety and balance (since AI is equally unreliable for everyone) is to let players choose 2 Eddies and 6 support characters. The AI would randomly pick an Eddie and 3 teammates at the start of the battle. This will at least add variety and give reason to use characters otherwise not being used on defense.

Another option for Offense is to implement the system of only being able to use a character once in the Arena until game does the daily reset. Inventory can hold 100+ characters. Make skill shards easier to get.

More skill shards and limiting repetition of character usage eliminates need to nerf characters and gives incentive to build up more and different characters.

So I like some of these points you make but...

1) they have made skill shards easier to get than they were a month or so ago... PvP (4 skill shards per month) and Sacrifice (two full vortex meters have given me 8 skill shards since release)

2) I think they might just be trying to add a second Eddie to PvP hence the "not supposed to be released" Eddie switching. At least possibly toying with the idea.

3) limiting the characters you can use in PvP would be like NerFing the feature instead of individual chars IMO. Balancing them (or at least attempting to) does seem like a better way to get more chars into PvP to me.

4) it has been said by others that NerFing chars is pretty standard issue stuff in games like this but it's not nearly as bad in LotB. Now even though I dislike all the changes to toons without the ability to remove skill shards, I'm willing to at least wait to see how these changes work out.

5) I personally don't need incentive to max different toons, that's why I play the game..

[Silentknight]

4) it has been said by others that NerFing chars is pretty standard issue stuff in games like this but it's not nearly as bad in LotB. Now even though I dislike all the changes to toons without the ability to remove skill shards, I'm willing to at least wait to see how these changes work out.
SWGOH does subtle nerfs(not castrations) & even when they do the player is given the choice of having shards returned! 113 characters & counting,all with totally different moves. Easy to collect EVERY toon! Farming is 100x faster & it needs to be as there is so much more to do. It's also E.A.,Disney & Lucasfilm so bigger team & alot more $ behind it.
I'm telling u,improving the A.I. would solve alot!!! I guarantee that more characters are being used on offence cuz the player controls em! Stupid A.I. causes limited defence!

[Mizrael]

subtle nerfs not castrations!

That's the main issue here! all the other games i've played were run by people who knew what they were doing and, no matter how ballsy the adjustments were, the players always admitted that they were necessary. and even then a reset is always provided.

This "beta test like" game first lets the players discover the bugs/exploits/OP chars and then the team reacts in a panic without giving much thought to what the consequences will be.
This has been the issue ever since NF took over (remember fierce talismans?)...

if these unreasonable nerfs continue, we will end up with 200 characters with the same stats,same skills,same talismans,just different names. and god forbid someone finds a toon who is better! the nerf bat will take care of it immediately!
way to go...NOT

[Silentknight]

That's the main issue here! all the other games i've played were run by people who knew what they were doing and, no matter how ballsy the adjustments were, the players always admitted that they were necessary. and even then a reset is always provided.

This "beta test like" game first lets the players discover the bugs/exploits/OP chars and then the team reacts in a panic without giving much thought to what the consequences will be.
This has been the issue ever since NF took over (remember fierce talismans?)...

if these unreasonable nerfs continue, we will end up with 200 characters with the same stats,same skills,same talismans,just different names. and god forbid someone finds a toon who is better! the nerf bat will take care of it immediately!
way to go...NOT

Yep,Death Dog & possibly Warrior Troll are next. The ones that don't have them will whine & the bat will come out!
Almost 40 years of playing video games & I've never come across such a controversial character. Would love to know who's idea The Prisoner was cuz they deserve a raise...better yet,a promotion! And now they've ruined it! Congrats to all the headhunters!!!

[Jofer16]

Yep,Death Dog & possibly Warrior Troll are next. The ones that don't have them will whine & the bat will come out!
Almost 40 years of playing video games & I've never come across such a controversial character. Would love to know who's idea The Prisoner was cuz they deserve a raise...better yet,a promotion! And now they've ruined it! Congrats to all the headhunters!!!

Question on death dog, what am I missing with the expected OPness? I've fought this toon a bunch in arena and it seems super lackluster. So it gets a passive to remove "up to" 2 opponents beneficials, so it seems just a desperate RNG attempt, doesn't seem to provide much else useful utility? Fill me in.

[Silentknight]

Question on death dog, what am I missing with the expected OPness? I've fought this toon a bunch in arena and it seems super lackluster. So it gets a passive to remove "up to" 2 opponents beneficials, so it seems just a desperate RNG attempt, doesn't seem to provide much else useful utility? Fill me in.
Once he's charged...deadly!!! Plus reduce beneficial effects. Not my 1st choice but...only toon that kills my toons in PvE

[Jofer16]

Once he's charged...deadly!!! Plus reduce beneficial effects. Not my 1st choice but...only toon that kills my toons

Makes sense i guess, I just tend to stay away from toons that need setup in arena, too many ways things can go bad when you're facing quality teams. I like reliability over all.

Now warrior troll is another story as he provides great utility all around. 3 warrior troll team would be so fun haha Shields for days.

[Silentknight]

Makes sense i guess, I just tend to stay away from toons that need setup in arena, too many ways things can go bad when you're facing quality teams. I like reliability over all.

Now warrior troll is another story as he provides great utility all around. 3 warrior troll team would be so fun haha Shields for days.

My feelings exactly but we'll c! Don't like any toons that don't attack all the time,except SSD,unless it's a heal. Also he's somewhat of a glass cannon

[Jofer16]

Almost 40 years of playing video games & I've never come across such a controversial character. Would love to know who's idea The Prisoner was cuz they deserve a raise...better yet,a promotion! And now they've ruined it! Congrats to all the headhunters!!!

I can think of a few off the top of my head real quick, meta destroyers:

SWGOH - Rey. She single handily made them change the entire meta, they dared not nerf her because it's REY, sw fans would lose their minds. Remember when they got lazy because the meta was all messed up and just added a 2nd health bar? Yeah that's because if Rey's multiple attacks kicked in, good bye to half the other team.

World of Warcraft - pyroblast fire mage. 1 shot any character in the game, not much else to say haha. the crying on this would fill an ocean.

Destiny - more of a combination of gear + skill but outcry was just the same. shotgun + slide + shot to the face. Super unfair, by the time the opponent saw you and fired, you slid underneath the shot and 1 shotted them. Should have seen some of the ridiculous kill/death ratios put up.

But yeah I kinda agree, it's a good thing. that's what makes the meta search fun, every game needs it or it'd be boring as shit.

[Silentknight]

I can think of a few off the top of my head real quick, meta destroyers:

SWGOH - Rey. She single handily made them change the entire meta, they dared not nerf her because it's REY, sw fans would lose their minds. Remember when they got lazy because the meta was all messed up and just added a 2nd health bar? Yeah that's because if Rey's multiple attacks kicked in, good bye to half the other team.

World of Warcraft - pyroblast fire mage. 1 shot any character in the game, not much else to say haha. the crying on this would fill an ocean.

Destiny - more of a combination of gear + skill but outcry was just the same. shotgun + slide + shot to the face. Super unfair, by the time the opponent saw you and fired, you slid underneath the shot and 1 shotted them. Should have seen some of the ridiculous kill/death ratios put up.

But yeah I kinda agree, it's a good thing. that's what makes the meta search fun, every game needs it or it'd be boring as shit.

LOL,u play everything? Only played SWGOH & not that much...no time! This game takes up all spare time!

[Tritium]

SWGOH - Rey. She single handily made them change the entire meta, they dared not nerf her because it's REY, sw fans would lose their minds. Remember when they got lazy because the meta was all messed up and just added a 2nd health bar? Yeah that's because if Rey's multiple attacks kicked in, good bye to half the other team.

Oh man, Rey was so fun. I focused heavily on her around the time she came out and she paid dividends in the arena. I still wish that game had a single-player only option because using her was so fun that I'd hop right back in again ─ if I knew I wouldn't have to compete in the ridiculously competitive arena.

[Silentknight]

Oh man, Rey was so fun. I focused heavily on her around the time she came out and she paid dividends in the arena. I still wish that game had a single-player only option because using her was so fun that I'd hop right back in again ─ if I knew I wouldn't have to compete in the ridiculously competitive arena.

According to a buddy @ work they've sped it up quite a bit. Had to,too much to do!

[mjmxiii]

Question on death dog, what am I missing with the expected OPness? I've fought this toon a bunch in arena and it seems super lackluster. So it gets a passive to remove "up to" 2 opponents beneficials, so it seems just a desperate RNG attempt, doesn't seem to provide much else useful utility? Fill me in.

Ddog with AGS and WTroll is one hit win in PVE. His Charge mixed with maxed true damage chars is lights out. In PvP he's a glass cannon if his team goes second... first target for Prisoner. If the tables are turned, he turns Chuck into his prison bitch lol (may be Chucks fate regardless). If you have a char that creates power like AG or Soldier, his Charge can happen first round and wipes out teams as he also removes first round bene fx like troll shields and immunity, etc.... that last part will change soon.

[mjmxiii]

LOL,u play everything? Only played SWGOH & not that much...no time! This game takes up all spare time!

^^This LOL^^
Where do you find the time Jofer?! You're a madman bro... forgot all about Heroes until I realized it was taking up space on my sim card and deleted it lol... it took 0.5 seconds to pick between Maiden and Star Wars. Do you still play that game too?

[Jofer16]

^^This LOL^^
Where do you find the time Jofer?! You're a madman bro... forgot all about Heroes until I realized it was taking up space on my sim card and deleted it lol... it took 0.5 seconds to pick between Maiden and Star Wars. Do you still play that game too?

No lol i don't play any of these anymore. I play a game till it bores me, each one of the above went through changes that made me get disinterested.

[Tritium]

^^This LOL^^
Where do you find the time Jofer?! You're a madman bro... forgot all about Heroes until I realized it was taking up space on my sim card and deleted it lol... it took 0.5 seconds to pick between Maiden and Star Wars. Do you still play that game too?

Jofer needs a mancave like what Sidney has ─ only his should be dedicated to gaming! xD

Come to think of it, that'd be sick in general. ;)

[Jofer16]

Jofer needs a mancave like what Sidney has ─ only his should be dedicated to gaming! xD

Come to think of it, that'd be sick in general. ;)

Oh I have one. mostly filled with 80s/90s stuff, original Garbage Pail Kids art, comic book stuff, etc :)

[Silentknight]

Oh I have one. mostly filled with 80s/90s stuff, original Garbage Pail Kids art, comic book stuff, etc :)

Shoulda tossed someone & accepted ur request. Then I'd have had the top 4,lmao!

[mjmxiii]

Jofer needs a mancave like what Sidney has ─ only his should be dedicated to gaming! xD

Come to think of it, that'd be sick in general. ;)

For sure Tritium that would be sick! Just noticed you're over 10k in VP Jofer lol 😆 No wonder you're answering questions on the forum.... week 7 (or 8?) pretty much locked up.... go Nicko lol!

[Jofer16]

For sure Tritium that would be sick! Just noticed you're over 10k in VP Jofer lol 😆 No wonder you're answering questions on the forum.... week 7 (or 8?) pretty much locked up.... go Nicko lol!

Was my dedication to Prisoner, check my PvP discussion thread lol

[Nicko]

For sure Tritium that would be sick! Just noticed you're over 10k in VP Jofer lol 😆 No wonder you're answering questions on the forum.... week 7 (or 8?) pretty much locked up.... go Nicko lol!

No worries. Just watch me score 4000 points in the last 25 minutes.

You're going down Jofer ;)

[Silentknight]

No worries. Just watch me score 4000 points in the last 25 minutes.

You're going down Jofer ;)

LOL,everybody showing up! Congrats Nicko!!!

[Ubajoa]

Go nicko cast him a pyroblast.

[Patrice-1201]

nerfing is really not the solution, I do not have a Prisoner, but he really is no issue. For me the issue is that I got attacked 133 times more than I actually attacked and that I have to spend so much Ironite just to catch up... If you count 14 points loss on average per attack, I lost 390 Ironites and 1892 points just on the imbalance... If I had been attacked like Nicko only 40% of my attacks then I lost > 4000 points... This is what makes me sick.

The nerfing seems to be an excuse to lead us to think that things are improving nut making sure we keep spending... It clearly isn't the answer and has people pissed off all over the forums...

[DaveMurray]

nerfing is really not the solution, I do not have a Prisoner, but he really is no issue. For me the issue is that I got attacked 133 times more than I actually attacked and that I have to spend so much Ironite just to catch up... If you count 14 points loss on average per attack, I lost 390 Ironites and 1892 points just on the imbalance... If I had been attacked like Nicko only 40% of my attacks then I lost > 4000 points... This is what makes me sick.

The nerfing seems to be an excuse to lead us to think that things are improving nut making sure we keep spending... It clearly isn't the answer and has people pissed off all over the forums...

Exactly, i don't have a prisoner and i am pretty sure that i will never get one with the current RNG even if i play for 10 years but nerfing is not the answer.
Instead i propose:
i) Remove revenge to balance the defence attacks, i did 10 attacks then i get attacked 5 times cause AI is trying to balance my attacks and then i get 10 revenges so it's 10-15
ii) OP a few common toons that most players have or are easy to get by adding new passives and improving their skills so there are more options to choose
iii) Fix the toss that decides who goes first
iv) Fix the f***ing point system, f.e. when i don't go first and end up loosing without playing at all because of taunt, stun, freeze it's not right to loose more points than what i gain at win
v) Remove the prioritisation to defence that leads the AI to proc everything for the defence team(void shield, stun, taunt, freeze, burn, multi attacks etc)
vi) Fix things that are broken or bugged, like talismans f.e., it helps in balance

[scott-5496]

nerfing is really not the solution, I do not have a Prisoner, but he really is no issue. For me the issue is that I got attacked 133 times more than I actually attacked and that I have to spend so much Ironite just to catch up... If you count 14 points loss on average per attack, I lost 390 Ironites and 1892 points just on the imbalance... If I had been attacked like Nicko only 40% of my attacks then I lost > 4000 points... This is what makes me sick.

The nerfing seems to be an excuse to lead us to think that things are improving nut making sure we keep spending... It clearly isn't the answer and has people pissed off all over the forums...

I pretty much agree with all of that - nerfing (other than fixes to try to improve toons) is not the way forward. Bring in new toons that can help or like you did with talisman as I use immunity and it works just fine and is a great counter to almost everything except a fully sharded GRE - if it get the RNG it is game over for one toon and a few nails in the coffin of another...is he the current new OP toon?

[Tridimensionale]

I pretty much agree with all of that - nerfing (other than fixes to try to improve toons) is not the way forward. Bring in new toons that can help or like you did with talisman as I use immunity and it works just fine and is a great counter to almost everything except a fully sharded GRE - if it get the RNG it is game over for one toon and a few nails in the coffin of another...is he the current new OP toon?

Nope.. i think i have 100% win rate (attacks) against GR teams no matter what the toons are, no matter the coin... i use viking eddie but i think any other maxed sentinel toon could do the trick.. he deals lots of damage but it s really fragile.

Trust me when i say maxed Carriage Rider Eddie is waaaay harder to put down

Mummy taunt teams the worst match up for me (even with immunity talisman).. good to read is going to get nerfed :D

[iPoop]

I’ve always been taught that you play the cards you’ve been dealt. Not the ones you wish you had, but the ones you’ve been dealt…and you play them to the best of your ability!

We’ve all been dealt certain characters as a result of our game play, our investment of time or even money. And once we’ve been dealt these characters, we’ve made decisions on selling them or further investing into them.

In my humble opinion, it’s incredibly demotivating that after the cards have been dealt and decisions around investments made, that someone can actually come and change the cards in my hand, ala nerfing. I do not care if they believe its justified via some “fairness” objective, the nerfing just makes me no longer want to play and invest in character development. That’s sad too since I’ve been essentially an everyday player since ~August of last year.

I believe the proper solution to the balance the Dev’s seek still lies in creation, not removal. Create new characters and talisman that require further investment. Introduce a character like St. Michael the Archangel who’s passive would remove the Prisoner’s passive. Don’t want to use an angel, call it the Prisoner’s Mother for all I care.

Sure, you tried a bit of this with the introduction of two new talismans. It may not have completely levelled the playing field, but the Immunity talis can help mitigate tauntfest. Now don’t just give up and swing the nerf bat, keep going and expand the meta further. If you want suggestions, we are a creative bunch, just solicit ideas from us. You’ll have more ideas than you’ll know what to do with if you ask.

Regressing all characters to a mean in order to achieve some sense of fairness is not a fruitful direction of the game. That is a road to nowhere. I recommend a different path…

P.S. I do not have a Prisoner, W. Troll, AoF or many other great characters. I hope to one day…but that hope will be lost if the nerf bat continues to swing.

[Jofer16]

I’ve always been taught that you play the cards you’ve been dealt. Not the ones you wish you had, but the ones you’ve been dealt…and you play them to the best of your ability!

We’ve all been dealt certain characters as a result of our game play, our investment of time or even money. And once we’ve been dealt these characters, we’ve made decisions on selling them or further investing into them.

In my humble opinion, it’s incredibly demotivating that after the cards have been dealt and decisions around investments made, that someone can actually come and change the cards in my hand, ala nerfing. I do not care if they believe its justified via some “fairness” objective, the nerfing just makes me no longer want to play and invest in character development. That’s sad too since I’ve been essentially an everyday player since ~August of last year.

I believe the proper solution to the balance the Dev’s seek still lies in creation, not removal. Create new characters and talisman that require further investment. Introduce a character like St. Michael the Archangel who’s passive would remove the Prisoner’s passive. Don’t want to use an angel, call it the Prisoner’s Mother for all I care.

Sure, you tried a bit of this with the introduction of two new talismans. It may not have completely levelled the playing field, but the Immunity talis can help mitigate tauntfest. Now don’t just give up and swing the nerf bat, keep going and expand the meta further. If you want suggestions, we are a creative bunch, just solicit ideas from us. You’ll have more ideas than you’ll know what to do with if you ask.

Regressing all characters to a mean in order to achieve some sense of fairness is not a fruitful direction of the game. That is a road to nowhere. I recommend a different path…

P.S. I do not have a Prisoner, W. Troll, AoF or many other great characters. I hope to one day…but that hope will be lost if the nerf bat continues to swing.

Great Post.

[Tritium]

*Eloquent and thoughtful post*

I agree with everything you said. You just about summed up how a good deal of the playerbase likely feels regarding this.

[Silentknight]

i’ve always been taught that you play the cards you’ve been dealt. Not the ones you wish you had, but the ones you’ve been dealt…and you play them to the best of your ability!

We’ve all been dealt certain characters as a result of our game play, our investment of time or even money. And once we’ve been dealt these characters, we’ve made decisions on selling them or further investing into them.

In my humble opinion, it’s incredibly demotivating that after the cards have been dealt and decisions around investments made, that someone can actually come and change the cards in my hand, ala nerfing. I do not care if they believe its justified via some “fairness” objective, the nerfing just makes me no longer want to play and invest in character development. That’s sad too since i’ve been essentially an everyday player since ~august of last year.

I believe the proper solution to the balance the dev’s seek still lies in creation, not removal. Create new characters and talisman that require further investment. Introduce a character like st. Michael the archangel who’s passive would remove the prisoner’s passive. Don’t want to use an angel, call it the prisoner’s mother for all i care.

Sure, you tried a bit of this with the introduction of two new talismans. It may not have completely levelled the playing field, but the immunity talis can help mitigate tauntfest. Now don’t just give up and swing the nerf bat, keep going and expand the meta further. If you want suggestions, we are a creative bunch, just solicit ideas from us. You’ll have more ideas than you’ll know what to do with if you ask.

Regressing all characters to a mean in order to achieve some sense of fairness is not a fruitful direction of the game. That is a road to nowhere. I recommend a different path…

p.s. I do not have a prisoner, w. Troll, aof or many other great characters. I hope to one day…but that hope will be lost if the nerf bat continues to swing.

ditto!!!!!

[Silentknight]

great post.
ditto!!!!!

[EnricoPalazzo]

I’ve always been taught that you play the cards you’ve been dealt. Not the ones you wish you had, but the ones you’ve been dealt…and you play them to the best of your ability!

We’ve all been dealt certain characters as a result of our game play, our investment of time or even money. And once we’ve been dealt these characters, we’ve made decisions on selling them or further investing into them.

In my humble opinion, it’s incredibly demotivating that after the cards have been dealt and decisions around investments made, that someone can actually come and change the cards in my hand, ala nerfing. I do not care if they believe its justified via some “fairness” objective, the nerfing just makes me no longer want to play and invest in character development. That’s sad too since I’ve been essentially an everyday player since ~August of last year.

I believe the proper solution to the balance the Dev’s seek still lies in creation, not removal. Create new characters and talisman that require further investment. Introduce a character like St. Michael the Archangel who’s passive would remove the Prisoner’s passive. Don’t want to use an angel, call it the Prisoner’s Mother for all I care.

Sure, you tried a bit of this with the introduction of two new talismans. It may not have completely levelled the playing field, but the Immunity talis can help mitigate tauntfest. Now don’t just give up and swing the nerf bat, keep going and expand the meta further. If you want suggestions, we are a creative bunch, just solicit ideas from us. You’ll have more ideas than you’ll know what to do with if you ask.

Regressing all characters to a mean in order to achieve some sense of fairness is not a fruitful direction of the game. That is a road to nowhere. I recommend a different path…

P.S. I do not have a Prisoner, W. Troll, AoF or many other great characters. I hope to one day…but that hope will be lost if the nerf bat continues to swing.

Seconded, 100%. Great post!

I don't have a prisoner and don't use the heavy taunters on my defense, and in the beginning, I lost badly 90% of the time to prisoner teams.
I learned to cope and stack my attackers in a way that now brings me roughly to a 2/3 win rate against prisoners.
Figuring out how to do this for me is all the fun this game has to offer, and nerfing the hard characters is taking that away by solving this problem for me.
Please before nerfing a char, consider the evolution of battle results against teams that feature this character.
People adapt, either by changing tactics or evolving their own characters. Those who don't deserve to lose.
If anything, please improve the AI, which still does make some very obvious mistakes.

[scott-5496]

ditto!!!!!

100% agree on these points too.

Nerf only if it make something better or where a toon is set up wrong for talisman or how it is scaling etc - don't nerf it because it is OP or whatever. Or if you do that then make shard moveable as that would lessen the pain....and a lot of us still do PVE too and why should we lose skills for that when what they are doing is for PVP (which not everyone wants to play)?

As they say, it truly is easier to destroy than create.......

[PerthEddie]

Some great points in here and it seems more and more players are unhappy about the nerfs. I don't have a Prisoner and probably never will (no way am I wasting Trooper points on G/A Souls any more) but I disagree with nerfing him. As others have said be creative not destructive. The way things are going we will all be using the floating rifles. Don't get me started on the AoP either. I fully sharded that bastard about a month ago and he is now going to be as good as useless in the Arena :(

[R1ck]

Also don't agree on nerfs, devs should create new characters to counter the ones we already have.
Nerfing characters and increasing power in some will make PVE really hard. Fortunately most of us already finished the game, but new players will be frustrated for it.

[scott-5496]

Some great points in here and it seems more and more players are unhappy about the nerfs. I don't have a Prisoner and probably never will (no way am I wasting Trooper points on G/A Souls any more) but I disagree with nerfing him. As others have said be creative not destructive. The way things are going we will all be using the floating rifles. Don't get me started on the AoP either. I fully sharded that bastard about a month ago and he is now going to be as good as useless in the Arena :(

Yeah, that is the key thing - the devs are annoying folk by nerfing toons they have invested in and/or been lucky in getting from the souls - not the best way to go I don't think. Nerfs should only be used on toons that are not working as intended or are broken in some way....that sort of nerf makes sense and is logical and should not annoy anyone. If they want to keep nerfing then they need to make shards moveable in my opinion as that lessens the pain a little/lot depending on how many shard are on it....what people feel if the GRE was nerfed and they had wasted all those shards on one? Not pretty at all.

A lot of folk complain about taunt/freeze fest and I see that too but it can be countered, as can the Prisoner....but surely the freeze/taunt fests are OP compared to anything else if you have not got the toons to counter it? Do they not also proc more than stuff like energy talisman/paralysis/invisibility/thieve etc etc? Surely they should be similar too...or maybe not! Who really knows?

[hold]

I am sittin on 32 skillshards and the original plan was to max the Reaper with 28. But since I read he is being watched for OPnes I just don't want to spend them at all - on anything.

I don't have a Prisoner and are kind of OK that he gets a nerf (because of the massive advantage on the offense) but now he will be simply destroyed. There were so many good suggestions (i.e. Prisoner disables all passives - friend and foe) and so on. I would be so pissed off if I had one and out shards on him.

Also: why a 2nd nerf to the AoF? I don't have one as well but never had a problem with him (a few odd times tbh - but that's part of the game).

With all this nerfs of "no touching" first round and so on - I can only see the defense rates dropping and with the silly point system it gets even more frustrating loosing points because the AI does not deserve that name.

Thing is that now I play PvP only with my free SoW to get coins for shards (that I don't want to waste) and souls. As long as this AI destroys all the points I win again I am not really into a competition.

[calizario]

It's a shame, to see so many members dissatisfied with what they are going to do in this next tunning and to know that we will not be heard.
I imagine the frustration of those who have achieved some of these characters after the sacrifice and have invented a lot in Skill Shards or even invested in old characters like Mummy Eddie.
Since the CG nerf, now AoP, AoF and Prisioner. The funniest of all was the Death Dog, with the same passive AoP, will change the name but it will not have the same effect of AoP, because? Because he is not an ordinary character.
Each tunning an unpleasant surprise, instead of creating, they remove .. this pathetic that.

[Nicko]

I'm copying a post I put in the PvP thread - but I know the developers read this one and am reposting it here.

I DO think the Prisoner needs a nerf and I have one. And I think some of the criticisms about him not helping win percentage are unfounded - ex Slauki has a 94% win percentage - because he carefully cherry picks teams. Others like Silent Knight don't - he's tenacious and will attack me multiple times until he wins - so assuming he does this with others, naturally his win percentage will be lower even with a Prisoner if he doesn't shy away from problem teams. Apples to Oranges here.

But the proposed change isn't a nerf - Silent Knight said it best - it's a castration

Anyway - after playing this since beta - I think the biggest impediment to a fun experience for most at this point is the point system. It would likely be dirt simple to change in the code and have a huge impact on everyone's experience. Why not simply reward defensive Holds but not penalize the losses? Or a light penalty of 2 points? A carrot instead of a stick.

Sparton - I know you said there are no plans to change the point system because you want to emphasize the importance of defense. But honestly, changes in defensive percentages don't offer proportionate rewards. And the effect of losses are really frustrating a lot of players.

Anyway - here's the repost...

A few of us like Rcarter and I have seen dramatically decreased attacks - and many haven't. And I agree with what RCarter said - what a huge difference it makes as you go through the week.

As some have pointed out, there seems to be a fairly despondent untertone in this weeks thread. It's unfortunate. And honestly - a Prisoner nerf won't help. It's not the real issue.

While I've focused on it in the last few threads, I don't even think # of times attacked is the real issue. It's the most pertinent defense metric to determine ones success in the current environment (as evidenced in previous weeks by players with mediocre stats making top twenty five) but not the underlying issue.

It really needs to be addressed at the root - the point system.

People will work if they believe they'll make progress. If they perceive their return on their investment of resources - time, Ironite - is fair. But if it's "two steps forward/three steps back"? Ultimately frustration will prevail. And we're starting to see more and more of it.

There are those uber-competitive among us who will suck it up - curse - and then still play a lot in the current environment. But my sense is the more typical player will simply get frustrated - say PvP is not fun anymore - and quietly walk away. And even the Uber-competitive have their limits...

I think ultimately this will need to be addressed. Personally, I think eliminating or greatly reducing the repercussions from having ones defense broken would have increased overall satisfaction significantly more than a massive Prisoner nerf.

A light Prisoner nerf and a restructuring of the point system ( as opposed to a massive Prisoner nerf in the current unfair point system) would - in my opinion - really improve the morale of the player base and help a lot of these negative undertones resolve (some will remain as there will always be complainers).

No update has happened yet. I hope the developers consider the above before any changes are made.

[Nicko]

And honestly - the suggestion about simply banning him from PvP and leaving him "as is" may not be a bad idea...

[Sag7272]

And honestly - the suggestion about simply banning him from PvP and leaving him "as is" may not be a bad idea...

Maybe keeping the idea of his passive being a buff but on 100% if opponents, he'd at least keep his revelence in PvE while still being counterable in the PvP, half of that nerf may be a decent solution to keep some 5* worth, but again those are just my 2 cents..

[Jofer16]

And honestly - the suggestion about simply banning him from PvP and leaving him "as is" may not be a bad idea...

Yeah the fact he's destroyed in PvE is annoying. He's a staple in my teams and don't feel like dealing with LoL without him, too much time and boring self resses.

This quote from Thanos awesome post earlier is my main objection with these nerfs:

"P.S. I do not have a Prisoner, W. Troll, AoF or many other great characters. I hope to one day…but that hope will be lost if the nerf bat continues to swing."

If the fun characters are nerfed this game gets real boring real fast, if the gameplay is slowed down by making all characters boring and "fair" it takes the excitement out of chasing the top meta. Changing the meta by gutting what's fun and not adding new OP meta is bass ackwards. I know if battles essentially become a boring coin flip I'll be out. Most of the fun is chasing and using characters like The Prisoner. I feel bad for people like Shaolin who obviously wanted one forever only to have it obliterated after he recently got him.

I'm not in the "participation medal" camp when it comes to competition. The direction this game is taking makes me believe whoevers making the final decisions is.

[HomemLivre]

Leave the Prisoner out of the PvP, ok.
Nerfing him, let people be more creative and make PvP a place for more combos and chars combinations, ok.

Is he really important in PvE like you guys are talking about?
I don't have him and Im managed to auto-play everthing with a fast 100% victory chance, even LoL. I really want to understand where is he so important in PvE. Tested some troopers Prisoners and the timming was the same.

[Jofer16]

Leave the Prisoner out of the PvP, ok.
Nerfing him, let people be more creative and make PvP a place for more combos and chars combinations, ok.

Is he really important in PvE like you guys are talking about?
I don't have him and Im managed to auto-play everthing with a fast 100% victory chance, even LoL. I really want to understand where is he so important in PvE. Tested some troopers Prisoners and the timming was the same.

So by your own definition, the nerf is unjustified if he's easily replaceable. Some people just like using our favorite characters. I didn't jump on the bandwagon after he became OP in arena, he's always been my dude from day one, he simply makes the game more enjoyable for me.

Like others have said it just kills any motivation to invest in characters. I too want to max out GRE but no way now with all the talk of OP. Changing the meta by subtraction and not addition is just a bad trend/direction to take. I've already had this with other favorite characters (corrupt general, etc) and it's getting old.

[Sag7272]

Leave the Prisoner out of the PvP, ok.
Nerfing him, let people be more creative and make PvP a place for more combos and chars combinations, ok.
Is he really important in PvE like you guys are talking about?
I don't have him and Im managed to auto-play everthing with a fast 100% victory chance, even LoL. I really want to understand where is he so important in PvE. Tested some troopers Prisoners and the timming was the same.

Still, in PvE he have his use, building "compensation" team to workaround especially while having him fully built is awful.. The set Nerf target at castrating him more than leveling him... Hence my comment, ant those of everyone, there got to be a way of balancing things without simply draining all mights out of a toon...
Making him counterable is one thing, reducing by half his only useful power on top of that just nullify him... Can already see PvE progressing players be like, wait, was that really a boss?

[gmac]

Hi guys,

Hate me but I'm in favor of The Prisoner nerf.

That passive is too powerful and has no counter. Only one toon in the game with it. That should never been allowed in PvP.

Many other toons have been nerfed before, and we had to adapt, Prisoner owners will do that now.

Remove him from Arena would be ok too, or change it to siege (or something) in Arena.

Not sure make a debuff on everybody would work, as it would still block every other passive in the game first round. Yeah, could cleanse, but that would force Mummy/Visions/Buzz on every defense. (And hope AI would be smart enough to use it). Not to mention if we do cleanse, will that make the passive come back? (don't know how that will work).

About nerfing the real problem for me is the skill shard issue. We should be able to move them around every new patch, major update, nerf etc

I look forward to this update, and also new talismans from BNW, hope we see new compositions at Arena.

But really hope matchmaking and self attack problems are fixed first, that is killing the game for me at the moment.

Cheers
Gmac

[Sag7272]

Not sure make a debuff on everybody would work, as it would still block every other passive in the game first round. Yeah, could cleanse, but that would force Mummy/Visions/Buzz on every defense. (And hope AI would be smart enough to use it). Not to mention if we do cleanse, will that make the passive come back? (don't know how that will work).

Seriously.. I think everyone around have already a set on immunity talismans around to keep key toons runing... No need to cleanse if it just doesn't happen.. hence the "counterability" point... Not used to be the case, now it will no matter how many toons it affects..
Otherwise any PvE use would rely too much on RNG & he'll be a "false positive" red eye for a nice to have but never used super rare toon..

[gmac]

Seriously.. I think everyone around have already a set on immunity talismans around to keep key toons runing... No need to cleanse if it just doesn't happen.. hence the "counterability" point... Not used to be the case, now it will no matter how many toons it affects..
Otherwise any PvE use would rely too much on RNG & he'll be a "false positive" red eye for a nice to have but never used super rare toon..

Hey man,

I really wish Prisoner owners would still be able to use The Prisoner as he is on PvE... btw AoP owners as well! For example, no easy way pass the w troll for us after the update.

Once siege stops working first round things will be leveled on offense (everybody can use new talismans). But killing every passive first round would still be a great advantage both offense and defense, debuff or not. (for instance, dealing with troll shields)

[Sag7272]

Hey man,

I really wish Prisoner owners would still be able to use The Prisoner as he is on PvE... btw AoP owners as well! For example, no easy way pass the w troll for us after the update.

Us including me ;)
I understand your point & I'm somewhat happy to retrieve the "mandatory prisoner spot" from my defense but don't want him nullified either, AoP will work pass first turn, start a HH with a Droid or a red pyro & forget about prisoners in this version no matter his chances of kicking in can be..
Main point was he wasn't counterable... Is he OP once a counter exist, definitely no, rest of that nerf just bury him in a flood of common toons as easily countered & even when working, he likely won't be of any use unless extremely lucky.. I can live without him or my AoP but it's​ way too much... He's directly heading to be benched & should had kept some use..

[HomemLivre]

Thanks for your replys, mates.
Im ok with let him PvE like he is.. he will be like Thief talis that steal 18 fury on PvP and 30 on PvE, Im ok with it.

But he really deserves a nerf in PvP, and IMO hes going to be balanced. Like him, CG is a super rare toon to and he was nerfed to hell, but he still usefull in the arena. I cant imagine how ridiculous he would be with the original 55% stun chance lol (the damage nerf was too much for me, he deserves a damage buff asap).

The Prisoner (just like the point system) is killing the arena, dont get me wrong, but Im tired to see the same teams everywhere just couse we cant change chars becouse of this OP passive. He is the only toon that simply be part of EVERY single team (at least fot the ones who have him) since the BETA... please, lets be creative.
If you think outside the box he will still be usefull, just need to combo with dif chars and talis.

I want to be able to test new combos, and I hope that this new patch brings the REAL balance that most of us deserve in the arena.

[gmac]

Us including me ;)
I understand your point & I'm somewhat happy to retrieve the "mandatory prisoner spot" from my defense but don't want him nullified either, AoP will work pass first turn, start a HH with a Droid or a red pyro & forget about prisoners in this version no matter his chances of kicking in can be..
Main point was he wasn't counterable... Is he OP once a counter exist, definitely no, rest of that nerf just bury him in a flood of common toons as easily countered & even when working, he likely won't be of any use unless extremely lucky.. I can live without him or my AoP but it's​ way too much... He's directly heading to be benched & should had kept some use..

Sag, you're a nerf magnet! Every toon you own gets the hammer!

I suggested they changed his passive to siege, would still be useful, let's not forget chance to stun 2 rounds with basic attack.

A passive that blocks all other passives... I mean... for PvP, that should never happened in the first place imo.

[BonFire]

I still don't understand why stopping passives is a big deal to nerf, but then he's the only one on my team that has a passive, but I do go against troll and Angel teams so I guess he's needed, but I've never had problems against other Prisoner teams since all he's good for is taking hits and blocking passives.

[Sag7272]

Sag, you're a nerf magnet! Every toon you own gets the hammer!

You are right, I know :(
Legitimately afraid one out of two who aren't be the next (GRE)... At that point it's funnier to take it as a joke...
:)

[gmac]

I still don't understand why stopping passives is a big deal, but then he's the only one on my team that has a passive, but I do go against troll and Angel teams so I guess he's needed, but I've never had problems against other Prisoner teams since all he's good for is taking hits and blocking passives.


Well, many combinations, offense and defense wise, are not possible simple because the prisoner stands there.

For instance
DM and A Pyro, W Troll useless.
Accuracy up, attack up, magic up would be used more often (I think) if they were also not blocked.

And many more I'm sure.

[Sag7272]

I still don't understand why stopping passives is a big deal to nerf, but then he's the only one on my team that has a passive, but I do go against troll and Angel teams so I guess he's needed, but I've never had problems against other Prisoner teams since all he's good for is taking hits and blocking passives.

Well, many combinations, offense and defense wise, are not possible simple because the prisoner stands there.
For instance
DM and A Pyro, W Troll useless.
Accuracy up, attack up, magic up would be used more often (I think) if they were also not blocked.
And many more I'm sure.

And by using him with an AoP you can nullify any talismans+passives & overuse CC..

[BonFire]

And by using him with an AoP you can nullify any talismans+passives & overuse CC..

I need to get me an Angel of Pain before that patch then. That sounds fun. Should've never deleted him before PVP came out. Looked too stupid.

[Jofer16]

I need to get me an Angel of Pain before that patch then. That sounds fun. Should've never deleted him before PVP came out. Looked too stupid.

He sounds good in theory but if you use him with Prisoner you're sacrifing a ton because running into a Prisoner makes him kinda worthless. I toyed with the idea of using that combo but it was considerably weaker than my usual teams.

[surfingwithdje]

Why the prisoner is very powerfull now? Because some passives are too much powerfull, especialy siege (who destroy all your strategy based on beneficial effects/talismants) and the troll's magma shield (who burn 50% of hp of all your team) ... This is why i use the prisoner, just for counter the blue bat and the troll, any problems with other characters!
In the future update blue bat and troll will be nerf in the same time so it will not really a problem to no more use the prisoner...
Another problem with the prisoner can be that he has no counter... just let his passive works for 100% of opponents but set it as beneficial effect (can be counter with immunity) that will balance his OPness and don't totally castrate him as i've read here :)
And why not the same thing for siege and all the other passives? Please let us the option to counter them with immunity instead of nerfing all the premium characters in the game...

[BonFire]

He sounds good in theory but if you use him with Prisoner you're sacrifing a ton because running into a Prisoner makes him kinda worthless. I toyed with the idea of using that combo but it was considerably weaker than my usual teams.

Oh okay. From my stand point, I almost never run into other Prisoner's, but when I do, I make sure mine's the free man.

[Sag7272]

He sounds good in theory but if you use him with Prisoner you're sacrifing a ton because running into a Prisoner makes him kinda worthless. I toyed with the idea of using that combo but it was considerably weaker than my usual teams.

100% agree with that, encountered same issues, it was used as an example..

[Jofer16]

100% agree with that, encountered same issues, it was used as an example..

Had to laugh at your nerf posts, I almost maxed GRE and AoF last week after seeing how lethal they are together. Decided to wait till the next round or two of nerfs hit, glad I did! This game has me trained now to be super careful investing in any character.

Edit: I checked and I'm sitting on 51 skill shards. I went from not having enough to now being scared to use any. Two equally frustrating scenarios.

[Sag7272]

Had to laugh at your nerf posts, I almost maxed GRE and AoF last week after seeing how lethal they are together. Decided to wait till the next round or two of nerfs hit, glad I did! This game has me trained now to be super careful investing in any character.

I laugh at it too, it's kinda funny... Well not the fact that everyone is scared of building up toons or trying things, personally kick myself for building an AoP last week as I built my AoF about 2 days before it was nerfed for the first time..
It's sad but I now keep shards for the day I'll have time to compete or I'll loose em all to nerfs on every obvious to build..

[Jofer16]

I laugh at it too, it's kinda funny... Well not the fact that everyone is scared of building up toons or trying things, personally kick myself for building an AoP last week as I built my AoF about 2 days before it was nerfed for the first time..
It's sad but I now keep shards for the day I'll have time to compete or I'll loose em all to nerfs on every obvious to build toon & sometimes the bat hit real bad..

Agreed. Just edited my post, sitting on 51 haha

[Hypnos]

Had to laugh at your nerf posts, I almost maxed GRE and AoF last week after seeing how lethal they are together. Decided to wait till the next round or two of nerfs hit, glad I did! This game has me trained now to be super careful investing in any character.

Edit: I checked and I'm sitting on 51 skill shards. I went from not having enough to now being scared to use any. Two equally frustrating scenarios.

This point is being brought up all the time, it's becoming an insult that skill shards haven't been made refundable yet. If the devs can nerf characters willy nilly, surely it's our right as players to have the ability to withdraw months of investments into those characters willy nilly also. I truly hope, for everyone's sake, they develop this feature sometime in the very near future.

[Tritium]

A simple fix to the Prisoner issue would be to make his passive act as a debuff that can be countered with immunity (and no other nerfs). This means that against teams with immunity talis or a HH/AD, the Prisoner won't be an immovable obstacle anymore. This also means that he would then block passives in the 2nd round of battle and probably continue working as usual after that. It still leaves the door open for people playing around with different team combos while not unnecessarily nerfing the king of PVP. Oh, almost forgot, this also means that he'll still be incredibly useful in PVE since you only rarely run into a group with HHs or ADs (and they aren't tough anyway).

I also agree with everyone on skill shards being refundable. This has been brought up in this topic numerous times by now, and I'm sure the devs will be keeping it in mind for the future.

[Bradata]

I have been always curious, this is question to the guys with Prisoner.
I have a Warrior Troll with Immunity talismans but I was wondering if when a Prisoner team attacks my defense does the shield from my Troll still apples to all my toons or it's removed from the Prisoner?

[Enti]

I have been always curious, this is question to the guys with Prisoner.
I have a Warrior Troll with Immunity talismans but I was wondering if when a Prisoner team attacks my defense does the shield from my Troll still apples to all my toons or it's removed from the Prisoner?

Prisoner's passive is not a weakening effect and works independently of any beneficial effects applied on your toons. That means your troll gets 1 round immunity from the talismans but that's it

[slauki]

A simple fix to the Prisoner issue would be to make his passive act as a debuff that can be countered with immunity (and no other nerfs). This means that against teams with immunity talis or a HH/AD, the Prisoner won't be an immovable obstacle anymore. This also means that he would then block passives in the 2nd round of battle and probably continue working as usual after that. It still leaves the door open for people playing around with different team combos while not unnecessarily nerfing the king of PVP. Oh, almost forgot, this also means that he'll still be incredibly useful in PVE since you only rarely run into a group with HHs or ADs (and they aren't tough anyway).

I also agree with everyone on skill shards being refundable. This has been brought up in this topic numerous times by now, and I'm sure the devs will be keeping it in mind for the future.

i think this would be a very good solution. i posted it many times prisoner was simply so far ahead (only on attacking teams since the new talismans came out) that he deserved a nerf, but not a castration. bring in more balance is okay, but killing 5* toons is too much. simply make his passive agression a debuff could work fine. and even then you have to offer people a possibility to reset skillshards on nerfed toons. man, GRE takes 28 skills if he gets his nerf, 2 months of work would be affected, how can this be fair?

anyway, the real problem on PVP is the rigged point system and still the matchmaking like many people pointed out many times. some guys get 150 attacks others get 400+ attacks (with similar induced attacks) and everyone is loosing much too much points on defense losses. how can someone compete in the arena if he suffers so many more attacks than others?
that's really unfair and kills the fun for many of us, it a slap in the face when you wake up in the moring and have 15-20 notifications. basicly you have to grind the whole day to make up for the losses, this is atrocious from a psychological perspective, i really don't get it. that's the right approach if you want all people to be frustrated and quit the game really soon. really basic stuff, reward people for playing and not punish them constantly will make players happy and generate more income.

[Bradata]

Prisoner's passive is not a weakening effect and works independently of any beneficial effects applied on your toons. That means your troll gets 1 round immunity from the talismans but that's it

Thanks!
So after the update and castrating the Prisoner the troll will have 50% chance to protect our defense, that is a good news for me ;)
But you guys will have also 50% chance for the Prisoner to work his magic so it's not that bad.