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View Full Version : Defense crafting - What am I playing against?



Lulero
06-17-2017, 07:09 AM
I'll try to keep the thing relevant all the way through, I'm relatively bad at it, apologizes if I digress.


- - - - -

To start of, some data to chew. Bit more than you'd get before engaging but that's fine.

Current setup: Cyborg / Grim Reaper Eddie, The Nomad, Wrath, Corrupt Rescuer

Cyborg, as advertised in my signature, is geared for PvE. It is of utmost importance to me that my trooper can safely use him without finding out I sacrificed damages for a better PvP setup (i.e. <><>Shell).
I'm stupid like that as I do realize very few use troopers in their LoL lineup.

Grim Reaper on the other hand isn't fully sharded yet, but his furry, slash are maxed and he has <><>Shell (along with <><> <><> Holy, or whatever the magic boosting set name is).

Other toons are dedicated to defense and maxed in every possible way.


The Nomad runs <><><> Energy and <><><> Strike. Clearly not optimal.

Wrath runs <><> Shell, <><><> Void and a mono <>.

Corrupt Rescuer runs <><><> Energy and <><><> Explosive.

Last bit of info, Wrath is replacing a Pyro Warrior and my hold rate seem to suffer. But I think that's rather due to me fighting at higher rank.


- - - - -

I could ask you for tips on how to improve on this but rather I'd like to have one or two answers to:


What do you use when facing this? Do you even adjust?.

I really wish one could see what the opponent used to crush your defense and some other meta infos like who got to go first. Not asking for a full replay, but a reasonable amount of feedback.

Also if you were among the unlucky ones who lost to it (less of them every week I swear), what decided the match could be helpful.

Once I'm done sharding Grim Reaper I'll probably use what I learned to build something a little different, but that first lineup is a good case study for me.

Thank in advance for any input, even small, you may have on this. Cheers.

hold
06-17-2017, 09:14 AM
I'll try to keep the thing relevant all the way through, I'm relatively bad at it, apologizes if I digress.

...

It's not your setup that screws your defense ... it's the AI! I normally loose to the defenses of top players only when everything they have is triggering - like counter twice plus explosives and Cyborg gets an extra turn on top ... or Wrath takes everything from me and a SSD stuns half my team and taunts the other half.

Askora
06-17-2017, 11:51 AM
Agreed, the AI is what loses it.

A lot of times it comes down to the RNG as well. When absolutely nothing proc's for my team (calculated at less than 4% chance) and everything proc's for the defense it makes even a mediocre defense rather tough. It happens far more frequently than you'd think considering the low probability.

Actually if I'm using MCR, she does at least steal. I guess it would be a red flag if a 100% chance effect didn't happen.

MoonShadow
06-17-2017, 02:03 PM
There was a time when I was facing frequently your team, Lulero, but for a couple of months, I don't see you on my lists anymore, as I'm staying usually on the same ranks as before, but I remember having trouble to win against your Cyborg & co... :)
I see that you have now some pretty neat characters that I don't have, I'd like a Nomad or a GCR or a Wrath in my defense... so if I'll see you in my lists, I'll try to see what happens and report here, but probably I'd have a hard time. :o

Lulero
06-17-2017, 03:28 PM
@Hold & Askora:

Indeed defense is built around hit & miss. You usually assume going first and having luck on your side.

Doesn't change the fact that some defenses are better than others, that mine could be improved, and that I'd like to know what people run against me to work with something instead of blindly throwing random guesses.

@MoonShadow:

I still remember your name! Not your defense though, can you refresh my memory?

I moved up shortly when Mummy / Prisoner era ended.

After a bit of a Vision shitness, defenses at higher ranks are a lot more diverse. A lot of players experiencing too, so it got a LOT more fun to try and compete a bit.

About the toons, The Nomad and Wrath are especially awesome on attack.
On defense, I should probably switch one of them out for that Strike/Shell Soul Demon that is starting to show up a lot lately. Or/and for a Newborn of Light.
Out of skill shards though, Grim Reaper eating all of them like a glutton.

Wish we could add each others and throw ourselves friendly challenges, along with the ability to discuss what happened in-game.

Askora
06-17-2017, 05:29 PM
Current setup: Cyborg / Grim Reaper Eddie, The Nomad, Wrath, Corrupt Rescuer

I'd probably use my standard offense. Visions, MCR, AGS and Prisoner. It works pretty well most of the time. I don't use the same team for defense though, because I tried it and my hold rate was running pretty close to 0%. Amazing what a brain behind a particular set of toons can do.

For me personally, facing GCR on defense, she has never been the one who turned the battle against me. Funny how that works, both she and her sister MCR have both been accused of being OP, but there is a way to beat them pretty consistently.

I've been trying out some new offensive options this past week, trying to find the right counter teams for just about any defense. :cool:

MoonShadow
06-17-2017, 05:58 PM
@MoonShadow:

I still remember your name! Not your defense though, can you refresh my memory?Oh, yes, but I can say that it wasn't so much of a defense, but still: Carriage Rider Eddie + The Golden Suns Trio (Assassin, Magus & Gunner). They don't play for my team anymore, at least in PvP, and since I got new characters, I'm still trying to find what's best.

For example, this week, I've been making some changes in my defense, replacing two characters, one being the Assassin Dog, which was replaced by the Assassin NBoL. Curious to see the final hold rate, now it doesn't look better than the last week.

Specifically on your question in the main post, I would try your team with a Navigator or Viking Eddie + Assassin NBoL / Red or Green Pyro Soldier / Sentinel Harpy or MCR (depends on your Eddie).

metallikapo
06-18-2017, 03:38 AM
I don't change my team when I'm facing yours. My attack team is usually the same as the defensive one. Newborn of Light, Mummy Eddie (with immuniy, for if I face a Prisoner's team), an Artillery Dog for the immunity, and Wrath, with shell talismans (I only have one pair! How I regret not having bought more of those!)

MoonShadow
07-03-2017, 08:31 AM
Hey, Lulero! I sent you a PM... if you're still curious how your defense is performing I have a video for you... ;)

Patrice-1201
07-03-2017, 10:43 PM
I am also curious as to why I only pull ~20% defensive wins. My team is all fully sharded: Grim Reaper, Wrath, CGR and Nomad... I have fully sharded AOF, W Troll, Red Pyro, CG, Sentinel Harpy and Artillery Dog on the bench... what am I doing wrong?

Askora
07-03-2017, 10:56 PM
I am also curious as to why I only pull ~20% defensive wins. My team is all fully sharded: Grim Reaper, Wrath, CGR and Nomad... I have fully sharded AOF, W Troll, Red Pyro, CG, Sentinel Harpy and Artillery Dog on the bench... what am I doing wrong?

I usually get about 15-20%. Think it's just the nature of the beast. The higher ranks are going to be strong offenses with true intelligence behind them. Only a few team compositions that I still have an issue with. I suggested a possible fix in another thread, but per Sparton it's not something they would want to implement because it might result in lower win rates on offense. My math says that's the only way you get better hold rates, not sure how their math works.

My suggestion is here http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?6464-Going-

To be fair, I think Sparton said it would be less strategy. I think it would take a lot more strategy.

Fudjo
07-04-2017, 02:07 AM
I usually get about 15-20%. Think it's just the nature of the beast.

When you consider that the attacking player gets to see what team they're up against and can customize their team against it - or choose to fight someone else entirely - and that they get to directly control their team instead of relying on the AI, it's not surprising to me that defense success rates are only 15-20%.

Askora
07-04-2017, 02:40 AM
When you consider that the attacking player gets to see what team they're up against and can customize their team against it - or choose to fight someone else entirely - and that they get to directly control their team instead of relying on the AI, it's not surprising to me that defense success rates are only 15-20%.

Exactly! Why I'd made the suggestion I did. It would require more attention to defense, but that's all part of a good strategy. It only stands to reason that as the average offensive rate goes up, the average defense has to drop accordingly. If people want 30% hold rates, they have to accept 70% wins on offense.

MoonShadow
07-04-2017, 08:25 AM
@Patrice: if I see your team in the defense list, I would gladly record the match, if you wish and Iím at my computer and not on the tablet/phone.

@Askora: pretty good suggestions, I was thinking about going in the Arena Ďblindlyí, too.

So, with the permission of Lulero, here is the match:


https://youtu.be/I2e9QKnvIOo

A few notes:
The luck was on my side:
- I went first;
- NBoL has removed the beneficials when needed;
- Cyborg randomly (!!!) choosing to kill the Magus Goldenson, which had a spare life in the backpack :cool:, instead of finishing for good the NBoL or Pyro, both at low health levels;
- the void shields were activated when needed;
- GCR hasnít revived any ally three rounds in a row, even if she had 7, 10 or 12 energy;
- GCR hasnít revived Cyborg;

Due to the fact that I donít have a top computer, the quality isnít great, Iíve almost played the game in slow-motion Ö sorry for this.

I donít understand why it took so long for the GCR to perform her power move as the only negative effect on her was ďlower defenseĒ... that was my thought after seeing the video for a few times, but definitely, our defenses is fully at the hand of the A.I. and it is really pure luck when it does "the good moves". :)

Patrice-1201
07-04-2017, 08:38 AM
@Patrice: if I see your team in the defense list, I would gladly record the match, if you wish and Iím at my computer and not on the tablet/phone.



@Moonshadow, that would be awesome !

MoonShadow
07-04-2017, 01:07 PM
@Moonshadow, that would be awesome !It would be, indeed, but I'll need to make my way more closely to the top positions.

Today something was happening, as from the 200+ position, suddenly I went to 500+, and right after then to 300+, without many matches.
Crazy.