February 2018 Tuning Discussion - PRELIMINARY

[Sparton_LOTB]

This is the main post to discuss tuning changes that are in an upcoming update.

You can see the details for the preliminary tuning adjustments in the Game Updates forum post (http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?9758).

[Yup]

Really don't want to be "that" guy.... typo....

Skill fixes -> Viking Eddie -> "Fix for skill removing one than one beneficial effect"

Thanks for the update !

[Amarthir]

I'm surprised and happy to see another update so soon on the horizon. The overall tuning looks good, the buffs to multiple Eddie's at once is pretty cool, the way some of them are now stacked will most likely bring them into PvP. I'll have to get my hands on Visions and Samurai Eddie as soon as I can.

The parts I don't really like aren't really a big deal, nerfing VHE's special will really depend on how much it's nerfed, yet I tend to rely on Ally special anyways. Changing Eda's passive to only 1 turn will probably do some good, but I'd welcome the ability to extend golden effects as a good trade off.

The one thing I really wish was here, was a fix for seal not working but I suppose I'll wait longer.

[Sparton_LOTB]

Really don't want to be "that" guy.... typo....

Skill fixes -> Viking Eddie -> "Fix for skill removing one than one beneficial effect"

Well dang, that's what I get for trying to rush the patch notes through, I guess. I'll make sure that's corrected in time for the final patch notes with the update release.

[Leo_ID]

Will Storm Eddie be switched to magus? On the first table Storm Eddie is listed as assassin, but on the second one is magus.

[Rain88]

Storm Eddie getting a buff? Love it. He was my first level 100 Eddie (and could be my favourite Eddie)

[Zerynx]

LOL - guess I should have read this before sharding up Eda and Gunner Child. Yesterday.

If you are going to nerf Eda's only redeeming quality, can you at least make her hit like a gunner?

I'm not a huge gamer, so even after some cursory google searching the terms "base damage" and "damage scaling" don't mean anything to me. It looks like Gunner Child is getting a nerf, is this indeed the case? Could someone be ever so kind and briefly explain those terms to me?

Thanks!
Z

[scott-5496]

That looks to be a great raft of positive changes to me. I will win on some and not on others but that is all good. Glad my Samurai may well see the light of day in PVP - that is some set of changes across the board for him (and for others too) but for me my Sam was my main dude for months early on and he did most of my killing of defences through story and still does in Sentinal LOL X.

Some very cool changes to 'lesser' Eddies too and I am all for that - increased diversity and hopefully a help to non-end game players too as they are more likely to have them. A fix for GCOTD too - much welcomed to get away from this crazt current meta we have - it is sort of fun to play as losses are much more common at the moment due to the OP of the toon but I will be glad to get past where we are now I think as wins and losses at the moment are so much on RNG compared to normal.

Visions buff too - been a while since I have seen him in Arena!

Extending goldien buffs too.....will FOTD make some comeback in the Arena as well I wonder?

Well done devs for this one and hope it all goes smotthly for us all!

Cheers

[slauki]

hey sparton,

all in all the changes look very reasonable on paper. just one thing i'm missing: would be interested to hear your opinion about 7th son eddie. don't you guys think, some tweaks would be fine there too?
yeah i get the problem of him being released currently, but for the sake of the pvp guys please adjust some of his broken parts. interesting that no dev ever commented on the concerns about him, would be cool if you'd be the first...

love the fact that many other eddies will get buffed and love the tweaks to the golden buffs, looks promising.

one further question, can we expect the gauntlet this time? :D

cheers

[MoonShadow]

Interesting changes, at least, made especially for the Arena enviroment, as we’ll be able to build different teams around different class Eddies, other than the classic VHE, Pharaoh or SSE (recently).… if we’ll have enough skill shards for that (my Samurai, Visions & Storm are still unsharded...).

But I don’t regret sharding recently my old GCotD or the new Eda, a change is welcomed in their case, that kid is a real menace and it’s in every corner of the Arena, although I like sooo much using him, it is real fun.

Hopefully we’ll found some balance in the Arena, and I’m really hoping for some future changes for my already sharded Carriage Rider & The Grim Reaper.

[calizario]

I still have no opinion on the notes. But one thing I'm sure .. it's all lost. In an update is buff everywhere ... in the other they see that in the previous they did wrong and it comes nerf. Expect to see the Super Samurai and Invensible Visons in action until the March update.

I hope I'm wrong

[Liebhild]

Hmmm, you can remove the yellow stuff? Somehow good, but why did we get yellow stuff then? Will we get in 6 months the superperfect yellow stuff and in 9 months the possibility to remove them?

[blade685]

i'm curious to test the new version of some eddies

[Peppoah]

Which char or talisman has furious or grievous burn?
The upgrade for Storm, hallowed, visions and the purge talismans sounds good to me. I don’t know about samurai, because I still miss him after one and a half year of playing.
What I don’t like are the nerfes. Some really good and not OP chars will get nerfed. I don’t have a problem with VHE, gunner child or eda. When I face this team, I’m happy to fight them as it is a sure victory for me. And I don’t have 7son. I think everybody has a pharaoh, a SOL, AOS, golden chopper, astra, AG, Eda, Val. So choose what you want and go for it, instead of moaning and crying about OP.
The greatest PITA for me was that WUR stealing from PI, which should be solved in the next update.

[Peppoah]

Hmmm, you can remove the yellow stuff? Somehow good, but why did we get yellow stuff then? Will we get in 6 months the superperfect yellow stuff and in 9 months the possibility to remove them?

Where is the “like”-Button?

[Askora]

I have to agree with Zerynx about Eda. Sounds like she's getting benched, especially if that one round works the same way as it does for the prisoner. With golden buffs now being able to be stolen, the only thing she offers is a way for the opposing team to steal infinite perfect immunity.

So, having immunity bad, having a toon that can do AoE 15k to 20k while inflicting permadeath, heal block and perfect corruption on the first half of a round good. Think that's why anymore, my only comments on updates are about bugs. Very little point in pointing out what's broken as the devs keep it that way on purpose.

[MrFreeze]

Is all this character tuning going anywhere? The one thing that’s been quick and consistent about this game is character tuning. At first I thought it was being done to “balance” things for pvp. We’re a year into pvp though and it seems there’s no end in sight for tuning. Every month there’s a bunch of new changes. It seems no character will ever be safe from all of this. Which makes me wonder why I bother maxing them out. I know nerfs are a part of modern gaming, but I’ve never seen another game throw them around like this one. I don’t think there’s one character left in the game that hasn’t been tweaked by now.

This might be my last post for a while, so I’ll say it again. Please concentrate on bug fixes and new content. I barely have any desire left to bother with this game, and that bums me out because it’s always had so much potential.

Also, weren’t we supposed to be getting some odds for soul drops or something? I see them in every other game I’ve been messing around with but this one. They show a list of characters with a percentage to drop next to them. It’s pretty straight forward.

[Kaz_LOTB]

Will Storm Eddie be switched to magus? On the first table Storm Eddie is listed as assassin, but on the second one is magus.

Our mistake. He is still an Assassin. We'll get that fixed for the final patch release notes.

-Kaz

[calizario]

I have to agree with Zerynx about Eda. Sounds like she's getting benched, especially if that one round works the same way as it does for the prisoner. With golden buffs now being able to be stolen, the only thing she offers is a way for the opposing team to steal infinite perfect immunity.

So, having immunity bad, having a toon that can do AoE 15k to 20k while inflicting permadeath, heal block and perfect corruption on the first half of a round good. Think that's why anymore, my only comments on updates are about bugs. Very little point in pointing out what's broken as the devs keep it that way on purpose.

I have to agree 100% with you. Golden Buff will now only serve as a buff for the opposing team, ie whoever uses them will be practically digging their own grave. I do not know where these devs ideas come from.

[Roadkillsuperman]

The buffs to Visions and Samurai give me hope. The arena is a bit monotonous at the moment with SSE and Gcotd everywhere, and I am just as guilty.

[Amarthir]

I dunno why you guys are upset over Eda's changes. Golden buffs are now extendable and she's still damn good at extending them. So is SoL Eddie, so you can still keep that perfect immunity like you did before.

I'm not sure where you guys think you can steal golden buffs, I just re-read the patch notes and nowhere does it say you can steal them. In Perfect Immunity, it says there's a fix for not preventing the sealing of buffs. Meaning if you have PI and another buff, you won't be able to steal the other buff anymore.

[JJJ428]

Read the update to vision eddies moves he now has the ability to steal golden buffs. Thinking I might just take vision Eddie to the top of the arena again.

[Mariner-1212]

Read the update to vision eddies moves he now has the ability to steal golden buffs. Thinking I might just take vision Eddie to the top of the arena again.

It's been said before, but it's really true that every toon is just one buff away from being the king, and you never know who's going to get the honors each month. Looking forward to seeing what your Visions Ed can do, might inspire me to shard him up.

[Amarthir]

Well good for Visions Eddie to be an efficient counter to someone with PI and Endure. But I believe what I meant was EVERYONE wouldn't be able to steal or remove golden effects. It'll make Visions Eddie someone I'd want to use for once. Too bad I sacrificed him long ago. Really too bad, I've pulled him 3 times since the beginning.

Speaking of the beginning my one year "anniversary" for this game is around now so damn, this game sure has changed since then.

[Roadkillsuperman]

I dunno why you guys are upset over Eda's changes. Golden buffs are now extendable and she's still damn good at extending them. So is SoL Eddie, so you can still keep that perfect immunity like you did before.

I'm not sure where you guys think you can steal golden buffs, I just re-read the patch notes and nowhere does it say you can steal them. In Perfect Immunity, it says there's a fix for not preventing the sealing of buffs. Meaning if you have PI and another buff, you won't be able to steal the other buff anymore.

Visions Eddie updates on Clutch and Take “Steal beneficial effect, including golden buffs”.
Samurai Eddie update on Cyclone Shield “removes immunity effects...including perfect immunity “

[zamasu]

I think people are misunderstanding the "yellow buff"

You won't be able to steal it. Currently, you can still BLUE buffs even if a character has a perfect immunity ("Yellow buff"). The update will fix this issue to prevent BLUE buffs to be stolen when PI is present

[Sparton_LOTB]

I'm not a huge gamer, so even after some cursory google searching the terms "base damage" and "damage scaling" don't mean anything to me. It looks like Gunner Child is getting a nerf, is this indeed the case? Could someone be ever so kind and briefly explain those terms to me?

"Base damage" refers to the amount of damage that character does based on the appropriate stats, but before accounting for improvements from skill shards.

"Damage scaling" refers to increases in damage based on the skill levels earned from investing skill shards.

Basically, from the last tuning update, the Gunner Child of the Damned was intended to be able to do fairly strong damage against foes with very high Attack and Magic (ie Anti-Assassin), but only reasonable damage against other foes. However, the scaling was not at a place to do that, and instead did strong damage against everyone and really strong damage against Assassins. This change will make her damage closer to other AoE attackers against foes with middling or low offensive stats.


all in all the changes look very reasonable on paper. just one thing i'm missing: would be interested to hear your opinion about 7th son eddie. don't you guys think, some tweaks would be fine there too?
yeah i get the problem of him being released currently, but for the sake of the pvp guys please adjust some of his broken parts. interesting that no dev ever commented on the concerns about him, would be cool if you'd be the first...

We haven't really commented on it because we want to be careful about commenting on very new characters.

Before releasing a character, we use that character in our test environments in a variety of situations to help find synergies and counters. We start a lot of our experiments based on a combination of our own experience in the live game, plus taking inspiration from other players' teams and strategies. As such, there's a lot of times where we see complaints and concerns from players that we know counters or strategies for, but we want the community to arrive at those on our own (or better prove that our theories are insufficient answers).

The short answer is we see Seventh Son Eddie as a strong new Eddie, but not one in need of direct changes at this time (the existence of more answers to deal with golden positive effects is, in a way, an indirect nerf).


one further question, can we expect the gauntlet this time? :D

Not yet.


I have to agree with Zerynx about Eda. Sounds like she's getting benched, especially if that one round works the same way as it does for the prisoner. With golden buffs now being able to be stolen, the only thing she offers is a way for the opposing team to steal infinite perfect immunity.


I think people are misunderstanding the "yellow buff"

You won't be able to steal it. Currently, you can still BLUE buffs even if a character has a perfect immunity ("Yellow buff"). The update will fix this issue to prevent BLUE buffs to be stolen when PI is present

This has already been clarified by a few others, but just to reiterate, keep in mind that golden positive effects can only be stolen by characters that clearly indicate they can steal golden effects (such as Visions Eddie after these changes go live), which is a small subset of existing characters that can steal or remove effects. Warrior Undead Rescuer is not directly nabbing Perfect Immunity, Perfect Immortality, Ascension, etc any time soon.

This is in addition to the fix for the issue where characters that cannot normally steal golden positive effects were stealing other effects that characters with Perfect Immunity had.

[ShaneBazTe]

Please sort out the timing issue with Navigator Eddie soon, it's been too long

[Ezz]

This is the main post to discuss tuning changes that are in an upcoming update.

You can see the details for the preliminary tuning adjustments in the Game Updates forum post (http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?9758).

Still no fix for red bat passive? Is it safe to assume it will never be fixed at this point?
If so maybe it’s best to just change his passive description to “randomly grants extra turns to entire team”.

[Sparton_LOTB]

Please sort out the timing issue with Navigator Eddie soon, it's been too long

Not sure if it will make it into this release, but Kaz said he'll look into it. I don't know how exactly the interaction timing system is set up in code and data, but from what I understand it's quite finicky, which is why we haven't been able to get many fixes out for these kinds of bugs.


Still no fix for red bat passive? Is it safe to assume it will never be fixed at this point?

We originally planned to have it fixed for this update, but our initial work on it had a lot of edge cases which wouldn't have been properly covered due to the way we tried to fix it. It is something we're focusing on for the update after the next one; it just requires more fundamental system work to get the fix to a place we'd be happy with.

On the plus side, it's likely to also fix a bunch of other passive oddities.

[Ezz]

Not sure if it will make it into this release, but Kaz said he'll look into it. I don't know how exactly the interaction timing system is set up in code and data, but from what I understand it's quite finicky, which is why we haven't been able to get many fixes out for these kinds of bugs.



We originally planned to have it fixed for this update, but our initial work on it had a lot of edge cases which wouldn't have been properly covered due to the way we tried to fix it. It is something we're focusing on for the update after the next one; it just requires more fundamental system work to get the fix to a place we'd be happy with.

On the plus side, it's likely to also fix a bunch of other passive oddities.

Outstanding!

Crazy how complex it must be it’s been an evolving issue since very early on

[Zerynx]

"Base damage" refers to the amount of damage that character does based on the appropriate stats, but before accounting for improvements from skill shards.

"Damage scaling" refers to increases in damage based on the skill levels earned from investing skill shards.

Basically, from the last tuning update, the Gunner Child of the Damned was intended to be able to do fairly strong damage against foes with very high Attack and Magic (ie Anti-Assassin), but only reasonable damage against other foes. However, the scaling was not at a place to do that, and instead did strong damage against everyone and really strong damage against Assassins. This change will make her damage closer to other AoE attackers against foes with middling or low offensive stats.


Thank you for your answer Sparton. While I'd not like to see the Nerf, I can understand why it is on the way. Been fun to user her in the recent arena event.

[Sag7272]

Seems awesome, balancing PI a bit can goes a long way, can't wait to test my "new & improved" Samurai...
Just one thing, is Cyborg will ever be able to scan on AI again? He doesn't need any buff... Just more "intelligence" using his skills..
Still, look good & sooner than later... Yay!

[DIEDD]

hey sparton, one question. Is there going to be any change in the self-stun fury of Visions Eddie?

[Sponholz]

Loving the changes so far...

PI getting fixed (no more stealing buffs with WUR or alikes) and getting a well deserved balanced change (from 2 to 1).
This is a really nice change, taking the rest of the patch notes in account, golden buffs can be extended/decreased.

Eddies buffs = Awesomeness. (I don't get why people get mad at this, what do they prefer then? that the good ones get a huge nerf? nope... I prefer that the others Eddies get buffs to be on par with the VHEs alike).

Golden buffs will be able to be stolen/removed BY SOME SPECIFICITY CHARACTERS, that is just AWESOME is so many ways I can't describe... Finally somethings in the strategy part of the game are getting a really nice change.

I really don't get how some people thinks that the change to PI and Golden Buffs are a bad thing. I have read SO MANY TIMES a LOT of complaint about then, and when they finally get some change, the whining begins.

Overall a solid patch, really looking forward to get Visions on Arena. (So glad I didn't tossed him in the sacrificial pit for a chance on SSE).

Cheers, Ed.


EDIT: @Sparton and @Kaz:

What about the Speed Of Light's Twisted Trade skill? there is 2 issues around it:
- The MAX FURY don't proc correctly when the skill kills someone.
- And the LVL3 upgrade of this skill? "Effect Chance +10%" there is no more chance regarding this skill, so some clarification on what are we getting from this upgrade step for the skill would be very welcome.

Cheers again, Ed.

[Ian]

I've been using Visions for ages in arena, even after the last time he was tuned and disappeared from most teams. Seems he'll return to being ubiquitous.

[T-Man]

Love seeing the buffs to the Eddies! This is what we want. Thanks.

However...
Once again, and I don’t expect you guys to listen, but I wish you would leave VH alone. Big thumbs down on another nerf.

Keep bringing the other Eddies up to VH’s level, instead of nerfing these great characters. I had so much fun playing SS last weekend, it renewed the game for me. The nerfs as well as the bugs, kill that enthusiasm.

[JJJ428]

I would like to know if the “glitch” with his fury will be fixed. When VHE revives he does not grant crit for those characters is this normal or should it be fixed?

[Sparton_LOTB]

Just one thing, is Cyborg will ever be able to scan on AI again? He doesn't need any buff... Just more "intelligence" using his skills..

I mentioned this to Kaz, and he says he'll look into it.


hey sparton, one question. Is there going to be any change in the self-stun fury of Visions Eddie?

There's no plan to adjust Visions Eddie's Fury.


What about the Speed Of Light's Twisted Trade skill? there is 2 issues around it:
- The MAX FURY don't proc correctly when the skill kills someone.
- And the LVL3 upgrade of this skill? "Effect Chance +10%" there is no more chance regarding this skill, so some clarification on what are we getting from this upgrade step for the skill would be very welcome.

The former issue we know about, and are still investigating the cause. The latter seems like part of the old data from before Twisted Trade was changed; I've passed that along to be updated based on the current functionality of the skill.


I would like to know if the “glitch” with his fury will be fixed. When VHE revives he does not grant crit for those characters is this normal or should it be fixed?

It's not intended, but we may have a fix coming (not for this update, but a subsequent one). A bug fix for an upcoming character may incidentally end up fixing this and similar cases as well.

[JJJ428]

I have a question about vision eddies fury. If a fury is suppose to cause a huge advantage as stated in a previous thread about navigators fury not seeing an increase in damage because the other effects are game changing why is vision Eddie the only fury to have a drawback. Granted it can easily be dealt with pairing him with someone who grants immunity but why is it decided that he needs a draw back for his when Viking Eddie can easily freeze and entire team for three out of four turns with no drawback. Thanks.

[Yup]

I Agree JJJ -- Visions is the ONLY Eddie where his fury DISABLES him or is otherwise detrimental. Horrible move and probably why he's not used as much.

[Ezz]

I Agree JJJ -- Visions is the ONLY Eddie where his fury DISABLES him or is otherwise detrimental. Horrible move and probably why he's not used as much.

Totally agree . 7th son puts all other eddies to shame seeing that nearly every move he does hits with true damage AND has some buff to his team or debuff to enemies. Most Eddie moves deal damage OR have a buff or debuff.

Then we have visions whose own fury stuns him? Lame.
To be honest his fury should remove immunity and guarantee to stun all enemies if he has to be stunned too. I mean he’s a 5 star come on.

[Blade]

It's not intended, but we may have a fix coming (not for this update, but a subsequent one). A bug fix for an upcoming character may incidentally end up fixing this and similar cases as well.

Actually I like VHE's fury as it is right now, because you need to find a tradeoff - do you use it mainly as a revive or as a damage boost? Both would be too much maybe and would reduce the strategic part!? (Yes, I have him and use him in pvp). Same is true for Clair.

[JJJ428]

That’s a good idea I could get behind a stun that goes through immunity and maybe passives as well then him being stunned for two might make sense.

[slauki]

that a relict of ancient lotb history i feel. back then without immunity talis and without viable ways to cast immunity the self stunning was okay. but in these days it's a joke if you look what other 5* eddies can do.
VHE and 7th son should be stunned for 3 turns if we compare them to visions ;)

[Sparton_LOTB]

I have a question about vision eddies fury. If a fury is suppose to cause a huge advantage as stated in a previous thread about navigators fury not seeing an increase in damage because the other effects are game changing why is vision Eddie the only fury to have a drawback. Granted it can easily be dealt with pairing him with someone who grants immunity but why is it decided that he needs a draw back for his when Viking Eddie can easily freeze and entire team for three out of four turns with no drawback. Thanks.

It's the value of a guarantee.

Viking Eddie can freeze an entire team, but that's up to chance. That chance also has more ways it can be influenced than Visions Eddie's fury (such as Accuracy Down, or removing the shields). None of those extra measures stop Visions Eddie from having a 100% Stun against all enemies, and Visions Eddie even has a built-in mechanism to grant himself a cleanse buff to mitigate the self stun. And all of that doesn't get into talking about Immunity Talismans, Angel Talismans, or getting cleanses/Immunity from allies.

Although slauki is also a bit right in that it's a bit of a relic of older design sensibilities, we still see use of it in battle records, so not everyone shares the opinion that it isn't game changing.


To be honest his fury should remove immunity and guarantee to stun all enemies if he has to be stunned too. I mean he’s a 5 star come on.

It's an interesting idea, but it opens the possibility of someone finding some combo that lets them build up max Fury in one turn (not hard with luck or when fighting against certain team comps, but probably also feasible without luck in a carefully built team), which would break a lot of game modes, Arena especially.

[DIEDD]

that's a shame, thanks sparton for the reply.

[Ezz]

It's an interesting idea, but it opens the possibility of someone finding some combo that lets them build up max Fury in one turn (not hard with luck or when fighting against certain team comps, but probably also feasible without luck in a carefully built team), which would break a lot of game modes, Arena especially.

I see your point - but then what about 7th son fury? Heavy true damage, steal all beneficial effects and infinite perfect immortality for all allies? And he does not get self stunned.

I am sure you have diagnostic stats - and my guess is offenses with 7th son are at around a 99% win rate. And the few loses they have I am guessing are nearly all to defenses with 7th son.

[deathndk]

Nice update guys keep up the good work! Happy for my hallowed eddie and too bad i sacrifised my samurai when i got the tropper eddie but samurai was a bit underwhelming to be honest!

[Sparton_LOTB]

The full, feathered patch notes are now live (http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?9777).

Closing this thread.