Let's talk about balance...once again...

[slauki]

Hey guys,

what do you think about this one:

4399


i can tell you what i think, the char is just ridiculous strong and out of line.

My arguments:

1. 3 fairly hard hits of true damage and 35% to steal even PI per hit??? so this mean 1-0,65^3 = 72,5% to remove immunity per char. so 3/4 of your team will be stipped as long as you cannot inflict an accuracy debuff on her.
2. same math applies for her powermove, but not sure how this will work out, since i didn't have the opportunity to see this in action so far
3. most ridiculous thing is her passive. 75% to full heal and ally or 25% to revive a random ally EVERY TURN? WTF is this.

Conclusion, some adjustments would be reasonable. like tune the passive down to 25%/25%. change her standard move so that i cannot remove PI and normal immunity. removing one immunity type is more than enough.

or what is with her:

4400

4 hits of magic damage and 50% to steal one effect or to smite a target per hit? along with a passive that even increase the duration of yellow buffs?
not that much out of line like the assassin one, but we can still discuss her...she might be okay as she is, but 50% seem a bit to high. maybe 35% would be better for her standard attack, since accuracy debuff would be a solid counter then...

Well we all know the NF character life cycle so far. release an OP char to make players chase him and to change the meta. once players chased long enough, the char will be nerfed down to an average level. this might take some weeks if we are lucky or some months if we are unlucky:

examples: prisoner, wrath, f'n cow milking visions eddie, Vampire hunter, astra, 7th son, assassin and gunner gunner liliths.

all in all i like the current meta since we finally see some diversity, visions, 7th son, samurai, VHE, pharaoh. many eddies are out there with many different teammates. but once the players start to pull the liliths out with frontier coins, things might change again, since they are a a little too strong imo.

would be curious to hear your thoughts, because i know, that i'm sometimes to nerf happy. but the situation here is pretty clear...

[Yup]

I'm actually finding the Warrior Lillith (which I don't have) to be the only real troublesome one. Seems to easily be doing 15-20k damage to an entire team with 1 hit.

When I started playing... I salivated and as chomping at the bit to get Wrath. He was clearly hitting very heard and definitely in a pack above the norm (as all eternals SHOULD be).... by the time I got him... he was made flaccid and now is less useful than MOST of my other characters. They will surely nerf the Lilliths at some point.

[Amarthir]

I guess I'll pitch in as well for my lady too.

Sentinel Lilith guarantee's removing PI from any single target and has a 50% chance to give Perfect Corruption for 3 turns, her power move revives all allies and her passive heals the team around 1k every time she's hit. So that's pretty well done. I've put her on my team with Cyborg Eddie and some other hooligans and I've been kicking ass up and down the street.

The way I see it, Lilith is like the Valkyries, everyone wanted them and many people still use them, they were op for the longest time and they never really got nerfed, yet we look at now and they're just as easy to take out as everyone else, simply because of tuning and new characters.

I'd be upset to see Lilith nerfed since she just came out.
Given how difficult and how long it takes to get just one Lilith, it's definitely worth the wait because all 5 are great characters from what I've seen.

[Nifelheim]

I see this as the future of the app, less nerfing, and adding more characters to counter/balance out existing characters/strategies. I think it's healthy in the long term, more diversity and less of the same toons/setups. Setting a standard of the potential of a 5* value.

[slauki]

good thoughts guys. haven't seen the red one in action more than once or twice so i cannot real tell too much about her, but seems like she is a beast too.

i also agree, with the future of the game, which might even things out. the problem is we have reached a very good balance lately, and i feel it got sacrificed again, for the sake of profit. the only good thing is that these chars are so hard to get that it will take a while till we see the fully devastating potential of them.

at least there are plenty of options out there, so there could be plenty of counters too which i'm not aware of.
the arena got more inetersting anyway due to relics and liliths but they took the 2nd step before the first i feel. hope we will see real new CONTENT soon. If gauntlet is half as promising as they say, the recent changes might make sense once it comes out. so please hurry up devs :D

[hold]

I see this as the future of the app, less nerfing, and adding more characters to counter/balance out existing characters/strategies. I think it's healthy in the long term, more diversity and less of the same toons/setups. Setting a standard of the potential of a 5* value.

The last thing this piece of crap would need is more characters ... well ... they are the carrots dangling in front of the blind following donkeys to throw cash after the scammers.

- New real content
- Fair play from the devs (show drop rate chances)
- Bugfixing long standing bugs ... or as I call them Eternity Bugs (pun intended)

I played a red Lilith from a trooper ... she basically wiped everything in her path with one strike. You don't need an Eddie anymore. I also faced two of the beasts in PvP. I lasted 2 rounds. Well first round 50% of my team was down and no way to recover. Even with invincibility, immunity - no chance. Very motivating. Playing 1 match a day just to get the daily reward but won't waste additional time.

In this state this gambling cash grabbing nonsense is nothing but a bad joke. I hate to say that because I love Iron Maiden but it's getting worse with every update since a while.

[Reeb99]

To be honest, I have more issues dealing with the stupid OP valks than I have any of the Liliths so far. Sure some of them do a lot of damage, but they don't present any new problems unless you're used to relying on PI. The valks were way overused, so they needed another counter. I don't see an issue here.

[Liebhild]

Liliths are another nail for the coffin of LotB.

Relics+Dropchances+Weather+Fraud will drive a lots of players aways from this.

[JJJ428]

To be honest, I have more issues dealing with the stupid OP valks than I have any of the Liliths so far. Sure some of them do a lot of damage, but they don't present any new problems unless you're used to relying on PI. The valks were way overused, so they needed another counter. I don't see an issue here.

I agree with this. I think Astra is still too over powered, her power move for 5 is ridiculous. I think I have faced every single Lilith so far except for the Magus one and none have been an issue, Plus these are suppose to be 5 star hard to get characters I am kind of ok with them being as powerful as they are right now. I can't wait for the inevitable triple Lilith defense to replace the triple Valk defesnese. Then I could see people really being up and arm about her and seeing what kind of issues she causes.

[T-Man]

Those 2 are loaded and pretty damn nasty in the right team. The CR gunner had less and got nerfed to hell. The Liliths can do all sorts of nasty stuff plus the Sentinel can revive all for the same cost.

I’m not one to call for a nerf but just saying. It’s part of the cycle we see over and over. Make over powering toons for the chase then nerf.

My attitude has become f it. It is what it is. Just try and enjoy the game and don’t waste real money on a game of chance with ridiculous odds against me.

[R1ck]

Usual NF behavior, create OP toons so everyone goes spend money to get them and then nerf them. Those girls on hands of people with a lot of relics are extremely dangerous, specially warrior Lilith.
Gunner Lilith DEF and MR are so high.

[Sick]

Just tried the Purple Poledancer on 20 PVP fights. She’s definitely not OP.

[Yup]

I tend to watch numbers more than anything. ...

the Gunner/Assassin/Magus Lilliths I have are all doing around 6k damage (fully sharded) or less (without skill shards) as a base attack amount. It really doesn't matter if they do that with 5 hits, 6 hits, 3 hits, or 1 hit.. always ends up around 6-7k total.

Note gunner and Assassin are fully sharded so they max that out, magus is about half that without all skill shards. Obviously add charge or ascension and those numbers double or triple. But 6k base seems to be really normal for almost all characters. So I don't know that the Lilliths are any more powered than other toons It's the other sills that are new configurations and will take some adjustment to match against.

Like the Warrior Lillith.. starts with charge.. essentially doubling or tripling it's 6k base attack at the start of a battle.

The only one I can't really comment on is the Sentinel Lillith. I don't have her, haven't really battled her and I can't tell a whole lot from the 1 run a day with a troopers. At a glance she seems like the most underpowered in terms of attack.

[Yup]

Alos.. with the addition of Relics. that (fairly) standard 6-7 base for almost all characters is going to be tougher to track and see. So... well, perhaps that's another reason for Relics.. to obfuscate the actual game math a bit more allowing developers to nerf/boost toons with less transparency.

[slauki]

i had the idea since the liliths are hero characters, that they should increase the partycosts for all liliths, so that you can only use one per team. this way they could stay as strong as they are without fucking up everything...any thoughts on that?

[blade685]

for me 5* purple lilith is not so OP than the most "cheated 4* of the game: astra :)

[slauki]

for me 5* purple lilith is not so OP than the most "cheated 4* of the game: astra :)

red, yellow and in some ways purple are way out of line if you ask me. i have them all just to make that clear, and it's a lot of fun to play with them. but they are fucking broken imo....especially in addition with these stupid relics...both combined result in a horrible meta...

[blade685]

yes like i said in another thread:

the "stupid" future of PVP : 2 groups of players

- one with some high end players that can play many hours a day, with all good toons and bonus
- another with all others players than will can't play vs cheated def teams

[Yup]

i had the idea since the liliths are hero characters, that they should increase the partycosts for all liliths, so that you can only use one per team. this way they could stay as strong as they are without fucking up everything...any thoughts on that?

... upset my 3 Lilith team can beat you in PvP??/ That's my thought :)


..just funnin... :)


Truth is I think PvP has always been shit. It's merely an emotional coin toss relying on your thirst for victory when you really have little or no control over it. There's just enough human input to give the impression you have some managerial control.. but you have none. Doesn't matter what PvP becomes or what they do to it.. it's shit.. has always been shit.. and will always be shit.

2 months ago you HAD to be running VHE to be a leader.... one month ago you HAD to be running 7th son to be a leader.. now... it seems you HAVE to be running Visions to be a leader. I mean seriously.. looking at the top ranks.. you're all followers. A whole page of only Visions Eddies with the rare, standout. It's laughable that you all think you have so much control.. but yet you all use the same characters.


The only thing PvP is good for is iron coins for Relics, Eternal Frags, and Skill shards. Beyond that.. meh.. there's no such thing as over powered....

[slauki]

... upset my 3 Lilith team can beat you in PvP??/ That's my thought :)


..just funnin... :)

not your 3 lilith team but others are broken as fuck :D won't name them, since we will see them soon enough on defenses... for some combinations there is no obvious counter, and that's the only bad thing imo..

[Yup]

not your 3 lilith team but others are broken as fuck :D won't name them, since we will see them soon enough on defenses... for some combinations there is no obvious counter, and that's the only bad thing imo..

Actually fighting with them.. I can clearly state the counters. I know the defenses that are just a pain in the ass.. and really the only ones I tend to lose to. This is why Magus seems great.. but testing proved otherwise. Above a certain level.. Magus was the clear weak link. But.. I don't have Warrior or Sentinel either. I do have (hopeful) plans when I pick one of those up.

[Amarthir]

I actually enjoy finding new counters to meta teams. The point of them giving us 3 team slots so so that we can switch it up depending on what team we go up against. So you can have your normal attack team, and your attack team against a specific character, or a specific group of characters.

[slauki]

I actually enjoy finding new counters to meta teams. The point of them giving us 3 team slots so so that we can switch it up depending on what team we go up against. So you can have your normal attack team, and your attack team against a specific character, or a specific group of characters.

yeah maybe i miss something but some combos have no counter even with 10 attack slots and all toons combos out there i feel...that said, 3 attack teams slots are not enough, 5 or more would be more reasonable...i still have to change a lot ...

[JJJ428]

Maybe I am alone on this but I am loving the all vision Eddie defenses. My win % has never been higher I am able to carve them up with little difficulty. Even the Liliths do not seem to be too much of an issue, right now I only see two real issues and that’s the Mayan princess and the warrior Lilith only when she has the echo talisman trigger 5 times the rest I have seemed to figure out. Granted I might have more relics then 95% so that probably helps.

[blade685]

it is better if you have warriors in your att team, it is not my case
And i'm not motivate to do another att team ^^

[edsel]

getting rare powerful characters is the fun rush of this game, before "Nerfing Frog" cuts their ability and they collect dust in the archive. I used to LOVE Wrath, worked so hard to shard him up early in the game. This investment was destroyed when he got demoted, now he is a castrated wimp with marginal damage and weak health. Junk.

[Tim28213]

I agree with JJJ428. I don't have a lot of relics but I don't have any real problems with Visions atm. Again I'm in the lower middle, so I'm probably not seeing the same things that teams ranked above 100 see. But anywhere from 500-75ish I don't think Visions teams are too tough. They take a while to win, but everything in arena seems to take longer lately. Dramatically changing up my team has been really beneficial to my arena play...

On a side note, I did BNW GoL X runs today. Same old team with my few Relics and BNW was actually about 2 minutes faster the first time and second run was a little better than that, so that's a positive.

[slauki]

in the top 20 you see visions all over the place, he could be adjusted just a little imo. but i don't think he is op himself, just annoying as fuck ;)

[Yup]

in the top 20 you see visions all over the place, he could be adjusted just a little imo. but i don't think he is op himself, just annoying as fuck ;)

Agreed. He himself isn't an issue. But.. match him with the proper supporting staff and sonova! Add relics and the 40-60k HP boost .. add 3 tunes with auto-heal abilities or Angel talismans... and he can be a time consuming drag.....

[Bradata]

in the top 20 you see visions all over the place, he could be adjusted just a little imo. but i don't think he is op himself, just annoying as fuck ;)

Ohhh, man! You know that devs are listening to what you say all the time and they do it in the next updates. Visions is good as he is now :rolleyes:
Problem here is that they introduced talismans that make him an Angel :p, you guess which ones... and this is what changed him for the better. He hits no more than 4-5K and fury is like 10K if is boosted a little but put him in combo with some mofos and you get an angel!

[slauki]

Ohhh, man! You know that devs are listening to what you say all the time and they do it in the next updates. Visions is good as he is now :rolleyes:
Problem here is that they introduced talismans that make him an Angel :p, you guess which ones... and this is what changed him for the better. He hits no more than 4-5K and fury is like 10K if is boosted a little but put him in combo with some mofos and you get an angel!

you forgot two main things

1. he can put up to three grievious burns to the entire team, this move is so lol, i cannot even find words for it. you can win matches with him alone, that's not just theory....
2. he can steal yellow buffs with his basic move. i liked him more as he was able to remove up to 3 normal buffs...he can still steal yellows, but maybe with his powermove...

but as said, i don't think he is that op, but i think there is a reason why almost everyone at the top uses him as defense eddie and with up to 90k hp he sucks a lot of... time :)
and yeah angels are one reason for it...

[JJJ428]

If anything I want Visions Eddie to get buffed this next month and for them to finally fix his fury. I mean would anyone actually complain if they got rid of his fury making him stun himself for two turns. Compared to 7th son I would rather face visions all day long they are usually my quickest matches the only time he is a problem is when he is paired with mayan priestess and that's only because she is a problem and I have to play more control then an all out offensive.

[Stormseye]

I have beaten full teams, even SSE with only my Visions and GPD up because they wiped my other two allies. He still very versatile to me BUT nowhere near OP as SSE on a skill by skill list. It one thing to inflict burns and chain stun but when SSE can heal, revive, steal every opponent buff, permdeath and make a pot of coffee you need to have an evaluation. Visions with energy talis and some good ol HP relics as much as I want another Eddie as my PVPer I have to settle for Visions.

[Yup]

the only time he is a problem is when he is paired with mayan priestess and that's only because she is a problem.

Does anyone else think it's just wrong to hit the Mayan Priestess... steal her buffs, then her Revenge steals them all right back. Or even you steal 1 buff from her.. she then revenges and steals 5 from your toon.

Revenge shouldn't steal buffs.

[Bradata]

you forgot two main things

1. he can put up to three grievious burns to the entire team, this move is so lol, i cannot even find words for it. you can win matches with him alone, that's not just theory....
2. he can steal yellow buffs with his basic move. i liked him more as he was able to remove up to 3 normal buffs...he can still steal yellows, but maybe with his powermove...

but as said, i don't think he is that op, but i think there is a reason why almost everyone at the top uses him as defense eddie and with up to 90k hp he sucks a lot of... time :)
and yeah angels are one reason for it...

I don't know what my Visions do when attacked from others but when I test my defense I never see him casting grievous burns but I agree about the yellow buffs... but then again they released these new chars with the same capabilities recently...

[Bradata]

Does anyone else think it's just wrong to hit the Mayan Priestess... steal her buffs, then her Revenge steals them all right back. Or even you steal 1 buff from her.. she then revenges and steals 5 from your toon.

When she is hit by a single hitter, 90% of the time she does not revenge, unless she has strike talismans.

[JJJ428]

Still not for visions being hit but another proof of defense bonuses when ever I use visions I usually see only one or two and sometimes even zero burns but when the defense uses it every single one of my guys has three burns.

[Amarthir]

Does anyone else think it's just wrong to hit the Mayan Priestess... steal her buffs, then her Revenge steals them all right back. Or even you steal 1 buff from her.. she then revenges and steals 5 from your toon.

Revenge shouldn't steal buffs.

Yeah, to be honest, revenge is pretty annoying on her, the only real counter other than passive disable is to use a single target hitter and kill her first. Since revenge only works when you hit the teammates of the one who can revenge. But more importantly, they need to fix her basic so that it only steals one or two effects.

[Yup]

It's not even a percentage of a possibility to steal all buffs. She does it each and every hit. I don't have any buff stealing toons that are 100% effective other than her. The Alliance General comes close, but even he may miss a couple every now and then.

[slauki]

i bet the mayan priestes counts every hit and calculates her trigger%. if some char does aoe damage, she will revenge almost 100%. is some char does multiple hits she will almost revenge 100%. yeah she is annoying and sometimes she has 8+ buffs on her which is really ridiculous. and then she heals the team for 50k health... well a lot to do for NF (sorry yup, i'd love to see new content too first, but it is what it is:) ) for me this is the worst meta since prisoner/taunting fest meta...i liked the one before, maybe that's why they changed it :p

[Reeb99]

When she is hit by a single hitter, 90% of the time she does not revenge, unless she has strike talismans.

This is exactly what I do on offense. I rarely use AOE because it is so much easier to control the fight.

[Yup]

Yeah.. but I don't have a lot of single hitters on my team for a reason :)

Glad to see they are fixing her, or at least trying in the April Tuning.