Navigator - Roaring Wave Attack

[Sidney]

Please explain to me why this was changed, and why he uses this so often now. Is this a benefit in PVP? He was the most effective Eddie for doing the daily grind and you could do it quickly with the right team. I could farm GOD Madness all day long and the defense never even got 1 shot in. I could farm between 17 and 24 seconds... Now sometimes it takes over a minute. He wasn't OP and didn't need tuned. I'd just like to understand the reasoning behind this unnecessary tweak to an Eddie I know a lot of people were using as their farming Eddie. Farming took too long as it was and now it's worse. I just want to understand the reasoning behind this.

[Yup]

Seems like a pretty poor change to me too.

Especially since when I do encounter him in PvP, guess which attack he tends to use.... yup.. Landfall.. so really this change alters PvE far more than it does PvP.

[Sidney]

Seems like a pretty poor change to me too.

Especially since when I do encounter him in PvP, guess which attack he tends to use.... yup.. Landfall.. so really this change alters PvE far more than it does PvP.

Agreed... I just know that normally there is a reason for these types of changes. Sometimes I agree and sometimes I disagree with the tuning, but this one makes no sense to me. He was perfect for running through your trooper list for badges everyday but now I don't understand. I ran through a long list of maxed eddies and none of them could even come close to what the Navigator used to be able to do. He wasn't causing any harm to anyone other than being 100% effective at farming. He needs to be changed back!

[FarmerEddie]

Aye aye mateys!

[Zerynx]

Agreed. I'd prefer Roaring Wave to go back to being broken than to have this "fix."

[Sidney]

Easy way to fix this is for the Dev's to give us the ability to choose the order of our toons in battle and also give us the ability to give the default moves we'd like them to do. If they don't want to work on AI then allow us to do it for them. Also give us the ability to forbid Eddie to use his fury to attack the one last foe when they have 2% health... save it for the next round!! It's not a use it or lose it skill...

[slauki]

sparton said, they would like to ensure, that eveny toon uses every ability in the game for more diversity. i cannot understand this too, since many abilities are simply dumb. like red nobls powermove. noone will ever need this, so he doesn't have to use this. my favourite is the green harpy.
she has the option to kill your team with a devastating damage move, but no, she prefers to cleanse a single ally without debuffs...

same applies for stupid navigator now..a horrible, horrible change....

[Sidney]

sparton said, they would like to ensure, that eveny toon uses every ability in the game for more diversity. i cannot understand this too, since many abilities are simply dumb. like red nobls powermove. noone will ever need this, so he doesn't have to use this. my favourite is the green harpy.
she has the option to kill your team with a devastating damage move, but no, she prefers to cleanse a single ally without debuffs...

same applies for stupid navigator now..a horrible, horrible change....

Right??? So it would make more sense to give us more control of what our team does on auto. It drives me nuts when they make these decisions. I really miss my Navigator!!! I was so happy when I got him but this feels worse than a nerf.... C'mon dev's ... Switch it back or give us the ability to choose our own preferences...

[Kira]

It was a bad move from NF it really doesn’t make sense roaring wave is not even useful in pvp

[Relany]

I'm not agree that it was a bad move.
It was supposed that gunners/assasins are single hit characters and as such Navigator was not complying to that rule, especially for grinding.
AHE can do better job now.

[hold]

same applies for stupid navigator now..a horrible, horrible change....

Devs: "Booohoooo we would love to push new content out faster but our resources are limited ... *cry*"

... resources are put into things that aren't broken to break it.

With every update this scam and the guys calling the shots are less credible. NIce idea with nice graphics - unfortunately a cash grab exploiting the loyal fans of Iron Maiden.

QA is non existent in Legacy of the Bugs ... no resources ... they are all put into think tanks how to mil the players.

[Yup]

...stuff...


Aces? really? I don't see it. Not that he does a bad job but Navigator WAS faster. Often all it took was 1 hit from Navigator, then 1 other hit from a character on your side to wipe out the other side. At most you might have needed 2 other characters + Navigator to hit. but it make farming much faster.

I've swapped him for Visions, which is okay.. but still not as fast. And 7th Son works well too, but again not nearly as fast.

[slauki]

I'm not agree that it was a bad move.
It was supposed that gunners/assasins are single hit characters and as such Navigator was not complying to that rule, especially for grinding.
AHE can do better job now.

well that's simply wrong. look at soldier eddie and tailgunner (astra/ass. pyro soldier etc). some of the best multihitters in game. your rule of thumb...well is just a very inaccurate rule of thumb and no excuse/explanation for adjusting (in fact nerfing) the best farming machine in this game. it just happend by nonawareness, i really hope they will take it back...

EDIT:
AHE is an awesome eddie but a really bad grinder....

[JJJ428]

I am hoping if enough of us make a point about this they can change Navigator back. It really does make any grind work much slower.

[EnricoPalazzo]

This only goes to show that testing is almost non-existent at NF. I firmly believe they fix things in code and then just assume everything is fine. Had they farmed a few levels or tested a defense with Navigator, this would have immediately popped up.
How many bugs have been detected by players minutes after a new release?
If NF had taken a day to actually PLAY their own game before any release, they might either have been able to fix this or (as I relize while typing this) never have released anything at all...

NF, please get some efficient testing in place! This will save time and money and prevent lots of veteran players from leaving the game, frustrated!

[Blade]

I also "vote" for a change back!
I even lost a LoL fight on auto due to the changes... Navi was the best Eddie for grinding and I see no need to change the skills (apart from adjusting the timing issue with one of the skills, thats fine of course and was urgent). In general changing skills or the use of them by the AI is a good idea, BUT: not as long as the AI is that stupid as it is right now. We all love(d) Navi because he just shoots all enemies and does not "select" a single target. Especially as "select" normally means starting with the enemy on the left... maybe sometimes in the future the AI might be able to really "select" an enemy out of strategy, not out of randomeness?! But until then... our only way to go (especially for auto grinding) is to setup teams (also their order!) in a way to reduce the importance of AI "decisions", as they are stupid as hell (healing when not needed, trying to apply buffs even when its blocked, using fury when from the respective enemy wave only one enemy is alive with 1 hp left and so on and so on...). I think the problem with the AI is also the reason why the defence teams in PVP are getting the (unspoken but existant) bonus regarding effect and talisman triggers.

2 Questions to the devs:
- Will you change Navi back?
- What are your future plans about the AI in general?

[hold]

- What are your future plans about the AI in general?

People are still calling it AI :D

Autofarm - last enemy standing - health non existent anymore - VHE Fury kicks in ...

please please please stop calling it AI ... there is nothing intelligent in the computer controlled part of Legacy of the Bugs

[Bradata]

I think I saw somewhere in the posts that Sparton will try to talk to the guys to change how AI works in PVE but I think it should be changed back as it used to be. Navigator was the only one who could help us shorten the grinding time and now he got crippled.
I hope that devs will listen to us on this one and change him back. I even can say he was way better in PVP before the change, I lost many fights against teams with him before, can't think of a reason why he was changed now except one, devs instead of trying to help us, they screwed us again and I hope was not intentional!

[scott-5496]

I am using a different team and it is pretty quick.

FOTD Ed, Blue Rescuer and Wickerman (though Wickerman can be changed to someone else in Powerslave)....work well in AMOLAD and Powerslave with no losses yet on Madness.

[Mariner-1212]

Devs: "Booohoooo we would love to push new content out faster but our resources are limited ... *cry*"

... resources are put into things that aren't broken to break it.

With every update this scam and the guys calling the shots are less credible. NIce idea with nice graphics - unfortunately a cash grab exploiting the loyal fans of Iron Maiden.

QA is non existent in Legacy of the Bugs ... no resources ... they are all put into think tanks how to mil the players.

Hold, I'm curious... do you enjoy the game in any way? Is there a reason you play it? I like to learn things about users, especially the ones that make it their mission to shit on everything. If you think you're the first person here to point out that there are shortcomings in the game, I'm sorry but those shoes were filled by many others over the past 2.5 years. It seems like you're on the forums an awful lot... but most of it (maybe all of it) is spent churning out negative energy.

I'm trying to figure out the point. Is your plan to cause an uprising against NF and get all users to abandon the game so it can close its doors? Or maybe you think they'll see your posts and say "Hold is right, we should do whatever he says"...? Help me understand your vision, and why you stick around. I'm not saying you don't have a reason to be upset - I think we've all been upset with the game from time to time. But it seems more like a full time job for you. What's got you so angry?

[Mariner-1212]

For Navigator, put him back to the way he was. I lost a SQ yesterday from his new love of stupid moves. If I have to worry about losing basic farming battles, I'll simply play less.

[hold]

Hold, I'm curious... do you enjoy the game in any way? Is there a reason you play it? I like to learn things about users, especially the ones that make it their mission to shit on everything. If you think you're the first person here to point out that there are shortcomings in the game, I'm sorry but those shoes were filled by many others over the past 2.5 years. It seems like you're on the forums an awful lot... but most of it (maybe all of it) is spent churning out negative energy.

I'm trying to figure out the point. Is your plan to cause an uprising against NF and get all users to abandon the game so it can close its doors? Or maybe you think they'll see your posts and say "Hold is right, we should do whatever he says"...? Help me understand your vision, and why you stick around. I'm not saying you don't have a reason to be upset - I think we've all been upset with the game from time to time. But it seems more like a full time job for you. What's got you so angry?

I put a lot of time in this game (from the very start). I would love that the devs finally deliver what they are promising since like forever. My point is:

- It didn't help at all for people pointing out things. The devs simply ignored it or waited until a thread was buried and carried on like before. That approach obviously is not working
- So let's try a different approach and call the poor work of the devs out as much as possible. Only if they start to suffer enough they will change something.

The are also not playing fair anymore. So I am pointing out that people should complain to Apple that LotB is not complying to their rules and tell us the droprates. Again - once they have been called out not playing fair and people see it is a scam - change can come.

I don't care if everyone thinks I'm an asshole because I will not give in for letting those fraudsters win. I'm way too stubborn for this. But it really is enough how the devs screwing with the players and the sheep are just nodding away (pun intended).

FFS are the players of this game metal and Maiden fans or a bunch of pussies that accept to be pushed around since almost 2 years? Think about it. You want a better game - so do I. Just hoping that the devs will deliver one day really got us nowhere.

Nothing pisses me more off than scams and at the moment this bug infested crap feels like one.

It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it ... :)

[Mariner-1212]

I put a lot of time in this game (from the very start). I would love that the devs finally deliver what they are promising since like forever. My point is:

- It didn't help at all for people pointing out things. The devs simply ignored it or waited until a thread was buried and carried on like before. That approach obviously is not working
- So let's try a different approach and call the poor work of the devs out as much as possible. Only if they start to suffer enough they will change something.

The are also not playing fair anymore. So I am pointing out that people should complain to Apple that LotB is not complying to their rules and tell us the droprates. Again - once they have been called out not playing fair and people see it is a scam - change can come.

I don't care if everyone thinks I'm an asshole because I will not give in for letting those fraudsters win. I'm way too stubborn for this. But it really is enough how the devs screwing with the players and the sheep are just nodding away (pun intended).

FFS are the players of this game metal and Maiden fans or a bunch of pussies that accept to be pushed around since almost 2 years? Think about it. You want a better game - so do I. Just hoping that the devs will deliver one day really got us nowhere.

Nothing pisses me more off than scams and at the moment this bug infested crap feels like one.

It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it ... :)


That's fair. I agree that the drop rates should have been disclosed a long time ago. And I have also stopped spending money on the game because of the 'RNG' which is not really that random.

As far as content, I think they've delivered quite a bit, and this year has a lot in the pipeline. So there's a lot to look forward to - but for me to do that, I have to keep reminding myself that it's just a game that is supposed to be a fun way to spend downtime, and to enjoy immersing ourselves in the Maiden universe. Expectations are through the roof because of the potential we all see... but as many already have realized, this game is best enjoyed when you realize HOW to play the game with NF.

Change expectations. Ignore the 'special' souls. Assume that drop rates are absolute shit, because they always are. Know that going in, and don't waste your resources. If you end up with a great toon, then you can use it to compete... and if not, then you can't - so enjoy the free time. If NF wanted everyone to play in the arena and have an enjoyable experience, they would have made one Lilith guaranteed to every player right out of the gate, and they would make it easier to get toons that allow you to compete. Or better yet, it wouldn't require a small subset of toons to compete.

Disclosing drop rates doesn't solve anything, really. You know from how many souls you've opened what the drop rates are for you. The only thing that would make a difference to most players is to fix the drop rates, so everyone has a chance to land the toons to compete equally - and that's not the business model. If they're essentially telling you to play less by not giving you new toys to play with, then listen to them and play less.

[hold]

That's fair. I agree that the drop rates should have been disclosed a long time ago. And I have also stopped spending money on the game because of the 'RNG' which is not really that random.

As far as content, I think they've delivered quite a bit, and this year has a lot in the pipeline. So there's a lot to look forward to - but for me to do that, I have to keep reminding myself that it's just a game that is supposed to be a fun way to spend downtime, and to enjoy immersing ourselves in the Maiden universe. Expectations are through the roof because of the potential we all see... but as many already have realized, this game is best enjoyed when you realize HOW to play the game with NF.

Change expectations. Ignore the 'special' souls. Assume that drop rates are absolute shit, because they always are. Know that going in, and don't waste your resources. If you end up with a great toon, then you can use it to compete... and if not, then you can't - so enjoy the free time. If NF wanted everyone to play in the arena and have an enjoyable experience, they would have made one Lilith guaranteed to every player right out of the gate, and they would make it easier to get toons that allow you to compete. Or better yet, it wouldn't require a small subset of toons to compete.

Disclosing drop rates doesn't solve anything, really. You know from how many souls you've opened what the drop rates are for you. The only thing that would make a difference to most players is to fix the drop rates, so everyone has a chance to land the toons to compete equally - and that's not the business model. If they're essentially telling you to play less by not giving you new toys to play with, then listen to them and play less.

I get all that. But if you are nagging for money all the time as they do with their "events" the players could at least expect some QA or a mainly bug free game. I really would love to know what they are smoking in the Nodding Ivory Tower regarding their bug management or their roadmap.

I don't use Navigator myself (still using Grim Reaper for farming) but anyone with a brain would ask by now:

- Who was the genius that put time and effort into nerfing Navigator instead of improving the game in the areas that really need improvement?

Whoever is "improving" the AI should be punished to do bug fixing for the next 12 months as she/he clearly has not as much clue as she/he thinks.

Just a mainly bug free game would be the biggest improvement ...

[Liebhild]

And I have also stopped spending money on the game because of the 'RNG' which is not really that random.


That is the reason, why I would like to see the odds and I would say also the reason why we wont see them.

[hold]

That is the reason, why I would like to see the odds and I would say also the reason why we wont see them.

I definitely want to see them and that's why everyone should report to Apple that this game is not complying with their rules. It doesn't matter if the game will improve or not but for the first time since the start the players can force some change - or at least will know that they have been screwed all along.

[Roadkillsuperman]

Well stated Mariner.
As a long term player, I have spent money on occasion as a thank you. I have learned not to gamble my cash on “event souls”.
I did make the mistake of gambling my ironite on Lillith and lost. However, I am not going to go on a tirade as I knew it was a poor gamble.
It is the constant stream of negativity that keeps me from participating here. If I was really this angry with the game, I would stop playing.

As for Navigator, I hope that our requests are heard. The best farmer has been ruined by the changes.
Jason-5521

[scott-5496]

The game seems to rely heavily on RNG and that is the problem with all aspects - some are 'gamblers' and others are not. I has a massive store of ironite but only did 20 light souls (less than half what I had) as I do like a flutter every now and again but I also like to know what i am getting as well. For me if the devs know or feel that a new character is going to be a big winner or want from most then I think they need to do events where a target can be reached to get said character.

RNG is the core of the game though so not sure hwo they could change that too much unless they look at a clean slate approach to how the game works and pays for itself - it must work for them surely or they would change it? They have to make money for the game to last/work/develp/expand.

I liek other are seeing some postive changes and monthly events are a good approach and I am sure they will develop and improve over time but really is it maybe just a few hundred players who are doing all the events maybe? I would love to know the weekly average play numbers for the game. If folk are not doing a lot of PVP which is really the only thing of interest other than collecting and hoarding resources (which I try to do) then what we have is a wait for new modes and areas to play in and I am very keen to see this happen.

I rarly get luck on RNG pulls - my 'success' comes from grinding most days and building up resources but I know I cannot really compete for top 50 much as not got the time and with my win rates dropping like a rock recently it becomes less of a pull to play PVP though to be honest I am caring less about losses (or trying to) as there are just some teams that kill me most times while others a 'weaker' team with RNG in its side can also kill me.

I still like the game a lot and play it a lot (grinding mostly) btu just not got the need to go top 50 every week - it just is not worth the time for me as the prizes are of no real interest to me as i have all the eternity and trooper toons now and just get sacrifice fodder from PVP (plus a few souls etc).

I really am just looking forward to new content and modes to be honest.....and a fairer challenge based way of getting new toons as opposed to RNG hell with souls. No SSE for me (he is a pain to kill with the right team) and no Lilliths yet and still waiting on an Eda, Warlord and a few others (which is fine).

The devs are a small team and I prefer to be positive as I can be with them - I do just wish though that they could stress test their updates a bit more. I am not going to haul them over the coals - they are I am sure trying their best in a small team of folk to keep a global game moving forward and trying to keep us all happy at the same time. None of that is easy I am sure and in the end of it al I stil love Eddie and Maiden and really that is it for me - my favourite band of all time in game - I do not need much else to play this and I guess they know that about a lot of us on here!

Still to get my Aberdeen tickets for the tour but not sold out yet so I think I will spend some money on that as I know what I am going to get there.....plus a t-shirt!

[hold]

It is the constant stream of negativity that keeps me from participating here.
Jason-5521

Name one thing that was a real positive and game changing improvement within the last 6 months ... dangling carrots in front of the donkey does not count.

(and if you find one compare it to the promises made by the devs)

[Mariner-1212]

Name one thing that was a real positive and game changing improvement within the last 6 months ... dangling carrots in front of the donkey does not count.

Frontier coins, which brought the ability to work towards selecting a high-end character you want. A bunch of new Eddies, even if one of them was Hallowed.

[hold]

Frontier coins, which brought the ability to work towards selecting a high-end character you want. A bunch of new Eddies, even if one of them was Hallowed.

Fair enough but not really game changing ... they have been introduced after players left getting 6 Beelzebub in a row (was it 6 Jofer? - btw I got half a football team of Bastions by now - I got only Bastions and the Vampire lady). For 24 weeks (almost 1/2 year) I could not even afford a Lilith ... improvement? Really? Dangling carrot for me ...

Eddies are carrots as well and don't count

[slauki]

Name one thing that was a real positive and game changing improvement within the last 6 months ... dangling carrots in front of the donkey does not count.

(and if you find one compare it to the promises made by the devs)

let's extend the period to 12 months please

awesome:
-arena
-sacrifice
- fragment system
-constant events (immortal event, 2x chances event, pumpkin event, valentines hearts)
- gold became usefull
- (BNW) playing the first times was awesome
- more toons became usefull in arena and it's better balanced now (aside liliths)

worst thing in the last 12 months:
- CYBORG MONDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[hold]

let's extend the period to 12 months please

awesome:
-arena
-sacrifice
- fragment system
-constant events (immortal event, 2x chances event, pumpkin event, valentines hearts)
- gold became usefull
- (BNW) playing the first times was awesome
- more toons became usefull in arena and it's better balanced now (aside liliths)

worst thing in the last 12 months:
- CYBORG MONDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmmm ... OK ... but we have a standstill in the last 6 months. And I do agree with you that I was a bit cheeky here as I really really enjoyed the first half 2017. But again - to much sugar up the arses of the devs and we end up where we are now. Standstill, horrible cash grabs, worst droprates since a long time, no transparency and worst of it all NO f*cking QA and NO bugfixing (quite the opposite).

worst thing in the last 12 months I would call:
- No QA
- No testing of updates
- No bugfixing
- Bugs, bugs, bugs, bugs and more bugs ... and some old bugs

I am happy to be the arsehole or the devil's advocate here but there is absolutely no reason to defend what's going at the moment. As long as the players don't make that clear - nothing will change. Why should it?

[Askora]

Fair enough but not really game changing ... they have been introduced after players left getting 6 Beelzebub in a row (was it 6 Jofer? - btw I got half a football team of Bastions by now - I got only Bastions and the Vampire lady). For 24 weeks (almost 1/2 year) I could not even afford a Lilith ... improvement? Really? Dangling carrot for me ...

Eddies are carrots as well and don't count

Last year, PvP was introduced, sacrifice, hidden locations changed to skull quests and now open once a day, a lot of new characters, new talismans, all kinds of events (many which guarantee a character), missions, tabs for different teams, frontier coins and eternal and trooper characters, bnw, etc.

A lot has been added, even if it's not as quick as we'd like you're fooling yourself if you think nothing has changed. Are they still dangling a carrot? Of course their goal is to keep people engaged in the game and investing in the game. Businesses kind of need to make money to survive, simple economics.

As far as drop rates, I think they should share them or at least make a post explaining why they shouldn't have to. It doesn't change them and anyone who's been playing for a while knows they suck.

Bugs have always been there. The game breaking ones are the ones that to me are the most critical. Passives and skills not working right are not game breaking. Crashing constantly, people losing points on wins, etc are the ones that need to take precedent. Hopefully, despite the issues it's introduced, the recent fix to correct some reversed logic helps to improve the skill bugs. No doubt it'll take a little bit to sort out the skills that were coded against the bad logic, but once it's done then moving forward it should be less often that new skills introduce new issues.

[slauki]

Hmmm ... OK ... but we have a standstill in the last 6 months. And I do agree with you that I was a bit cheeky here as I really really enjoyed the first half 2017. But again - to much sugar up the arses of the devs and we end up where we are now. Standstill, horrible cash grabs, worst droprates since a long time, no transparency and worst of it all NO f*cking QA and NO bugfixing (quite the opposite).

worst thing in the last 12 months I would call:
- No QA
- No testing of updates
- No bugfixing
- Bugs, bugs, bugs, bugs and more bugs ... and some old bugs

I am happy to be the arsehole or the devil's advocate here but there is absolutely no reason to defend what's going at the moment. As long as the players don't make that clear - nothing will change. Why should it?

man, you have many fair points. i also just realized there was NOTHING groundbreaking in the last 8-9 months, nothing. and i think we need also guys who point this things out in a more direct way, as long as everything stays civilized. despite that all i hope for the best and i think things will get better due to the tour ahead....but well only time can tell...

[hold]

Bugs have always been there. The game breaking ones are the ones that to me are the most critical. Passives and skills not working right are not game breaking. Crashing constantly, people losing points on wins, etc are the ones that need to take precedent. Hopefully, despite the issues it's introduced, the recent fix to correct some reversed logic helps to improve the skill bugs. No doubt it'll take a little bit to sort out the skills that were coded against the bad logic, but once it's done then moving forward it should be less often that new skills introduce new issues.

Please don't take that personal but you are defending the devs here for their absolutely shit coding or management of bugs or non existing QA. After 1,5 years of development some of the bugs within the game are pathetic.

I understand that coding is done by humans and they make mistakes - but not in EVERY SINGLE UPDATE and the bugs they are introducing are not minor glitches. It's up to every person how long to accept this behaviour and nobody has to play the buggy game. I do understand that. But as a person who would love to see that game improve - personally I have been patient long enough I think.

How about the devs challenge themselves a bit with something similar to this (input welcome): every new major bug that comes with an update and is discovered in a special "found the bug thread" they give X ironite or X souls or X to every single player ... could that improve the poor coding?

[Askora]

Please don't take that personal but you are defending the devs here for their absolutely shit coding or management of bugs or non existing QA. After 1,5 years of development some of the bugs within the game are pathetic.

I understand that coding is done by humans and they make mistakes - but not in EVERY SINGLE UPDATE and the bugs they are introducing are not minor glitches. It's up to every person how long to accept this behaviour and nobody has to play the buggy game. I do understand that. But as a person who would love to see that game improve - personally I have been patient long enough I think.

How about the devs challenge themselves a bit with something similar to this (input welcome): every new major bug that comes with an update and is discovered in a special "found the bug thread" they give X ironite or X souls or X to every single player ... could that improve the poor coding?

I'm not a professional coder, but I do know how to write a little. LOTB has a lot of code. If they just found a mistake in the core logic, that could have been causing a lot of issues. So, I'm all for giving a chance to see if things don't improve from that fix.

Something else to consider is we don't know that the programmers working now are all the same as the original group. I can assure you that anyone new coming in requires a fair amount of time to get familiar with the code and that it can be a nightmare chasing bugs in someone else's poorly documented code.

[Patrice-1201]

let's extend the period to 12 months please

awesome:
-arena
-sacrifice
- fragment system
-constant events (immortal event, 2x chances event, pumpkin event, valentines hearts)
- gold became usefull
- (BNW) playing the first times was awesome
- more toons became usefull in arena and it's better balanced now (aside liliths)

worst thing in the last 12 months:
- CYBORG MONDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

very true, a lot of good things in a year this game has evolved so much so thanks Dev for this!

[Ironstyle]

How about the devs challenge themselves a bit with something similar to this (input welcome): every new major bug that comes with an update and is discovered in a special "found the bug thread" they give X ironite or X souls or X to every single player ... could that improve the poor coding?

I second this. Other games do this, why not NF? I know we had that free 150 ironite, or however much it was, but you had to get the code from Facebook. It should have been automatically given to us when we logged in the game, not hidden away where most people won't find it.

Anyway, thanks, Hold, for being the asshole we need speaking up on these issues. More of us should. As much as the devs have given us since the game launched (and I am grateful) there has been a huge lack in anything super significant. Mainly, new story content. Almost any other game out there that's similar releases new story content in a timely manner. Oh, and I like how you stick to your narrative. The Q&A thing would be really nice.

[Yup]

let's extend the period to 12 months please

awesome:
-arena
-sacrifice
- fragment system
-constant events (immortal event, 2x chances event, pumpkin event, valentines hearts)
- gold became usefull
- (BNW) playing the first times was awesome
- more toons became usefull in arena and it's better balanced now (aside liliths)

worst thing in the last 12 months:
- CYBORG MONDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I'm gonna call bullshit here......

Yeah things may have taken a HUGE leaps forward 9-10-11 months ago.. great for you. That means doodle-squat to probably more than half the people playing this "game". That dose of heroin felt great last year... doesn't do much for me today though.

I wasn't around a year ago... so in my time...

- constant events (immortal event, 2x chances event, pumpkin event, valentines hearts)
- New toons
- New talismans
- Frontier coins
- Satellite 15
- Relics


So... really nothing really new except characters or ways to get stuff. You simply can't equate what happened 9-10-11 months ago with what's happened the past 6 months. The goal of any money-seeking "game" should be to entice new players to stick around while also keeping long-standing players interested. Players are going to come and go. That's inevitable.

Since I started playing the ONLY new stuff I've seen are characters and talismans, well now relics.. that's it. And each month more and more and more time is being asked to reach achievements. I mean to hit that 400 cosmos battles in the last event I had to play pretty much every second I could over the course of a week. That's a RIDICULOUS amount from time to ask from users. TO hit the current daily ironite reward I need to ensure I play as much as possible daily.. again too much of an ask for most people. And then they change the BEST Eddie for farming so that even MORE time is needed.

Events are either becoming complete time sucking shit holes that are nearly impossible to reach. Or paced decently and people on the forums bitch about the month being "boring". If you want something NEW then you should NOT be focusing on events. Let the events die a bit in favor of dev time on actual new content. I imagine Devs are caught trying to satisfy the "since the beginning" forum members while also trying to create events that new players can enjoy. Frankly the people who have been playing this for a year SHOULD BE A BIT BORED by it. They SHOULD be hitting event achievements rather quickly and be left with nothing (special) to do until the next event. Because the stuff you seem to want means the people who haven't been playing for a year are hosed. I'd wager there are FAR more players with less than 6 months under their belt. It honestly amazes me that I have every Eddie.. I think 99.9% of the native 5 star toons.. most with full powered talismans.. and a whole lot with maxed skill shards.. yet the time it takes me to hit some event achievement is still ridiculously long. Shouldn't things get EASIER to achieve with the better characters?

Do I want new content? Hell yes. But I'm certain the devs MUST know that its needed by now. I merely hope their definition of "content" isn't more characters and talismans. Sadly the while Lillith thing has me wondering. I'd be fine with no new characters or talismans (or even events) for a month if it meant Secret Planet is released the following month.


(And I don't feel the Lilliths are imbalanced at all - neither does my arena defense tab. You WANTED a counter to PI.. you got it.. now you're complaining about it.).

[hold]

I'm not a professional coder, but I do know how to write a little. LOTB has a lot of code. If they just found a mistake in the core logic, that could have been causing a lot of issues. So, I'm all for giving a chance to see if things don't improve from that fix.

Something else to consider is we don't know that the programmers working now are all the same as the original group. I can assure you that anyone new coming in requires a fair amount of time to get familiar with the code and that it can be a nightmare chasing bugs in someone else's poorly documented code.

True ... but don't punish the players because it's certainly not their fault. If my company f*cks it up I try to keep the customer happy. Well at least in my universe of fair play. As a customer I'm not interested who is responsible for the mess and I agree that cleaning badly documented code from others is more than a pain in the ass ... but as a customer I don't want to be double screwed for mistakes I didn't make. That's unfortunately the case right now.

[Ironstyle]

I'd be fine with no new characters or talismans (or even events) for a month if it meant Secret Planet is released the following month. .

This. Exactly this.

[JJJ428]

This with night city been waiting for that longer.

[Yup]

I think a more reasonable compromise would be a MONTHLY or Bi-MONTHY events rather than weekly events. So every 2 weeks there was something new and the time needed to reach an achievement could be more reasonable for most people, while also not sucking up so much dev time.

And change Navigator Eddie back please.

[Sparton_LOTB]

As I stated in the game update thread (http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?9872-March-6th-2018-Update-Discussion&p=67852&viewfull=1#post67852), we definitely recognize the concern players have with the AI change to utilize Roaring Wave, and we are looking at how we can adjust the AI and/or skills to solve this problem.

That said, we also don't appreciate massively derailing this thread to discuss general game issues. These issues are important and deserve to be discussed, but please create new thread(s) on those subjects. Further off topic posts will be removed (and that includes attempts to discuss something off topic while also mentioning this thread's Roaring Wave topic).

[Yup]

Understood.. And A WHOPPING HUGE THANK YOU!!!!!!! For turning on the quick reply feature of the forums.. okay.. that was off-topic.. sorry.


And I can't help pointing out this is my 666th post...

[MrFreeze]

As I stated in the game update thread (http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?9872-March-6th-2018-Update-Discussion&p=67852&viewfull=1#post67852), we definitely recognize the concern players have with the AI change to utilize Roaring Wave, and we are looking at how we can adjust the AI and/or skills to solve this problem.

Rather than looking into how to solve it, couldn’t you guys just change it back to the way it was?
It seems that’s what most people would like.

[Sparton_LOTB]

Rather than looking into how to solve it, couldn’t you guys just change it back to the way it was?
It seems that’s what most people would like.

We may end up doing that, but we're not convinced that's the best overall answer to the problem, for the reasons my original post went into.

[Yup]

When I read this change my thought was.. cool.. easier to kill NE in PvP when I see him. But.. from my experience.. since the change.. NE still seems to use Landfall way, way, way more than Roaring Wave. In fact, I can't recall NE ever using Roaring Wave in PvP since the change. I see Landfall and Scourge used. But admittedly, I'm not writing things down and keeping track. This is just my memory.

[JJJ428]

Sparton why is there the objective for AI to use every move possible. I think this takes the effectiveness away from a lot of characters. As Slauki pointed out in another thread warrior NBOL and sentinel harpy using their power moves when generally they suck. Also I feel bad for people who use Pharaoh Eddie in pvp because you have lost countless battle because he used enrage instead of revive. I think the AI should just stick with its best moves possible without trying to get to complicated with the coding. Trying to attack unless low on life then use a healing ability. Maybe I am simplifying the matter too much?

[Yup]

But wouldnt' "best move" be subjective, JJJ??

I mean maybe Pharaoh needs Enrage.. not Revive at one point.. so casting Revive would be meaningless then and it wouldn't be the "best move" at that time.... but yes.. he may also need Revive at another point.

And frankly.. anyone using the SenHarpy or any of the NBOL in PvP isn't aware of how easy they make things at time. :)

[JJJ428]

Granted best move is subjective but for regular characters can just be set to always use their normal move if their power move is so situational. I understand Eddies be much harder to configure for proper scenarios. But there is a reason why some characters are better then others and frankly I think it’s because their AI is less dumb. Not that I want to see them change this but has anyone ever seen VHE use his scream ability? Of course not it’s terrible should almost never be used and if the AI was ever set up to do that do you think we would have had the VHE era in the arena?

As for my Pharaoh example I have seen him use revive at start of the battle when no one needs it and then when he is the last character left and has over 6 power he uses enrage instead. Couldn’t they set up code to say if you have any dead allies then use revive if not then attack. To me enrage is almost always a waste of 3 power. Also would like to point out have never seen him use mend ever either.

[hold]

As for my Pharaoh example I have seen him use revive at start of the battle when no one needs it and then when he is the last character left and has over 6 power he uses enrage instead. Couldn’t they set up code to say if you have any dead allies then use revive if not then attack. To me enrage is almost always a waste of 3 power. Also would like to point out have never seen him use mend ever either.

Be careful! You are derailing the thread by discussing Pharao - you naughty boy! You can speak about Navigator here but not mentioning other problems of the game!

However there is a thread where you can do that (http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/showthread.php?9905-Everything-that-is-wrong-with-this-game-and-the-state-it-is-in-right-now) and bring forward problems in other areas!

Glad to help out here, devs!

[Yup]

Yeah I think that's more a sample of the intrinsic issue... the AI is COMPLETELY unaware of the team surrounding it.

Pharaoh doesn't know that every other member of his team is dead or that Clairvoyant is next to him and NOT using fury to allow Clairvoyant to use it would be better. All Pharaoh knows is it's own health, it's buffs, and it's target... roll the (seemingly slightly weighted) dice to choose an ability....

I honestly can't even imagine the mountain, if not planet, of code which would be needed to make the AI really be aware of its surroundings. For what it's worth.. all teh teams I attack.. the AI seems to KNOW which single member on my attack team is most vulnerable. They almost always start hitting it first.. and it's NOT the character on the left (I learned that lesson a while ago).

[Kira]

In my opinion the smartest AI goes to 7th Son he’s a pain with all his moves

[JJJ428]

I believe there has to be some coding about surrounding members in place that’s how some know to heal. That’s why navigator uses scourge instead of roaring wave. (Brought back on topic for you hold).

[Yup]

Yes.. I think (and I'm guessing) team health, team atk, team def, team mr.. etc all factor into the "dice roll" of who goes first and then when something drops to a certain point the character capable of healing does..or capable of boosting defense does... This is why NE uses Scourge. I doubt it would EVER use that move otherwise.

But then look at other toons like Eternity Eddie.. he inevitably uses Parting Blows and Power of light. Seeing him use any other move (except fury) is, for me, strikingly rare. I'd LOVE EE if he used Deepest Cut more often, but he doesn't. So I don't use EE for PvP defense. Essentially they've done the same thing to NE.. use one of his worst moves and healing more more often than the better moves.

I think ALL the moves of all the Eddies should be weighted exactly the same and really let it be a RANDOM selection from the abilities. It'll suck at first.. but it will actually make PvP much less predictable.

[Patrice-1201]

Real AI means "best move in a given situation"....

[JJJ428]

I am no programmer so no idea how hard this is but if it could do a check like: look multiple enemies I will use landfall or look only one enemy left AND has debuffs use roaring wave.

Also making all moves completely random would be terrible and make defenses and grinding completely horrible.

[hold]

I am no programmer so no idea how hard this is but if it could do a check like: look multiple enemies I will use landfall or look only one enemy left AND has debuffs use roaring wave.

Also making all moves completely random would be terrible and make defenses and grinding completely horrible.

It has been requested a few times (starting with the introduction of PvP that players could set priorities or at least could block certain moves to be used at all. SSD and Green Harpy are very good examples.). That would make the so called AI more obsolete and give the player more control. It would also help in case of the Navigator or any team setup.

[Yup]

Also making all moves completely random would be terrible and make defenses and grinding completely horrible.
Or would it breathe new life into what I see as a fairly stale feature :)

[slauki]

It has been requested a few times (starting with the introduction of PvP that players could set priorities or at least could block certain moves to be used at all. SSD and Green Harpy are very good examples.). That would make the so called AI more obsolete and give the player more control. It would also help in case of the Navigator or any team setup.

was always a fan of the deny ability feature...they said this might get defense to predictable, but i think it would just make em better. like good old assassin golden son. he had the potential to be the best farmer out there, unfortunatly he uses his endure all at the beginning at the battle too often, so he is basicly bad...wasting so much potential with specific chars...

[JJJ428]

That’s why I think stopping certain characters from using situational power moves would only benefit the game. There would be a lot better characters to use for grinding plus I think it would make the arena even more diverse because certain characters would be considered more and not discounted because of them possibly using an ill timed power move.

[Sparton_LOTB]

Sparton why is there the objective for AI to use every move possible. I think this takes the effectiveness away from a lot of characters. As Slauki pointed out in another thread warrior NBOL and sentinel harpy using their power moves when generally they suck. Also I feel bad for people who use Pharaoh Eddie in pvp because you have lost countless battle because he used enrage instead of revive. I think the AI should just stick with its best moves possible without trying to get to complicated with the coding. Trying to attack unless low on life then use a healing ability. Maybe I am simplifying the matter too much?

Our AI isn't that smart. That hasn't changed since the game launched. We have plans to improve that, for sure, but other than small scale changes based on the way the AI system currently works, we won't see radical changes in that department in the short term.

However, there's three important factors to keep in mind:


Sometimes players think certain moves are useless and should never be used, but over time that perception can change, for better or for worse (Sentinel Soulless Demon's Brace is an example of this; not nearly as relevant now, but people initially thought it was worthless, pretty much since the global launch of the game. However, early in the Arena's history, that single character keeping themselves alive with that skill and slowly wearing an enemy down became a huge roadblock for some players)
The AI doesn't have all of the parameters/awareness it needs to make smart decisions in all cases. The example of reviving is one such matter (the AI doesn't have awareness about if allies are dead, it only has awareness of if one or more teammates are low HP. This is why a lot of revive skills have other effects (such as doing damage + revive, or reviving and providing a positive effect to all allies))
Really smart opponents aren't fun opponents for most people, so the AI makes occasionally suboptimal choices. Those aren't supposed to be hilariously dumb choices, buuuut that's the way it rolls the dice sometimes, due to how it's currently implemented, and the above point about the AI not having the awareness needed to control how dumb those decisions can get compounds on that.


To bring that to the point about Roaring Wave, if we could tune the AI so that's only used on, say, a high-health character that has 3+ negative effects if there isn't 2+ other enemies with health low enough that Landfall will probably kill them, then yeah, we would adjust the AI to use it like that. But even then anyone could poke a hole into how that could lead to the AI making a "dumb" choice based on a whole bunch of other factors that we can't realistically bake in to AI when we have over a hundred characters and plan to have hundreds more.

Additionally, as we just can't get that specific, we made a judgement call based on the info we do have, anecdotally and based on data for what characters he's often pared with/arrayed against. Looking at what we knew, we figured that occasionally using the single target basic that could deal massive situational damage would mean you can't just have modestly high health and be safe against him, which adds an additional factor to consider when Navigator Eddie is a live threat on the enemy team. That judgement call ended up being worse than we expected, for sure, and we have counter anecdotes from players that even within the intended scenarios of Navigator Eddie being a PVP opponent that he's more likely to drop the ball than not, but that's the assumptions we were operating under when we were considering the change.

[Yup]

From me.. there's no "fault" in the initial decision. I'd just like it reviewed after players have weighted in, That's all.

I "get" the semi-dumb AI. Which is really only ever a problem for any player in terms of their defense. Otherwise, players seem happy with how the AI generally operates (sans bugs).

Of course, this is all solved by releasing a PvE only Eddie, which is prohibited from PvP entirely, and to only be used for farming levels :)

[Mariner-1212]

Sparton, I saw that Unity recently gained integration with IBM's Watson... in case you're thinking the AI should be an unstoppable force.

[Sidney]

@Sparton

If you admit that your AI isn't that intelligent, than why not give the players the ability to use the moves they prefer for a certain character? Furthermore, give them the ability to choose the order in which their characters attack. This would give you the freedom to tweak skill choices all you want, but still give the players what they want. It may not work perfectly in all instances, but for the speed of farming this would solve a long time problem. Just a thought...

I know you guys do a lot of work to keep the game alive, but tying the hands behind the back of a great farming toon is not a good way to keep long time or even short time players interested.

I'm not trying to be a troublemaker, but I'd just like to see some attention given to the long daily grind we are all faced with.

[hold]

Really smart opponents aren't fun opponents for most people, so the AI makes occasionally suboptimal choices.

That has to be one of the worst excuses for: we can't do any better.

Plus what are you trying to say with: Really smart opponents aren't fun opponents for most people? That your bug infested client is mainly played by people with an IQ close to dry bread? (that would at least explain why people are still throwing money after NF but preying on the gambling addicted without delivering quality is equally evil)

[Sparton_LOTB]

Sparton, I saw that Unity recently gained integration with IBM's Watson... in case you're thinking the AI should be an unstoppable force.

Perhaps when we add an Insanity difficulty for Cosmos worlds...


If you admit that your AI isn't that intelligent, than why not give the players the ability to use the moves they prefer for a certain character? Furthermore, give them the ability to choose the order in which their characters attack. This would give you the freedom to tweak skill choices all you want, but still give the players what they want. It may not work perfectly in all instances, but for the speed of farming this would solve a long time problem. Just a thought...

Something like that could definitely solve problems like the current one Navigator Eddie has. However:


That's a pretty big feature to create, make the UI for, bug test, etc. I've mentioned a long while back when this subject was last brought up that we may eventually go down that road, but right now we'd want to focus on other Quality of Life features (like Auto-Replay to help with Troopers) or gameplay features (like Gauntlet).
This can grant a massive advantage to certain players who understand how to utilize the feature, if we're able to make it flexible to the point where a lot of people seem to be asking. This isn't inherently bad, but it may put newer players at such an extreme disadvantage that it may put them off things like PVP, auto-grinding in harder game modes, etc. We would like to shore up other known issues with those features (such as matchmaking problems some newer players have in the Arena) before trying to figure out how to best surface and explain things like tuning character AI as a general feature for players.

[OdoyleRules]

It could be worse. Remember when it used to change Eddies automatically. Now that was a pain.

[Sidney]

I'm not agree that it was a bad move.
It was supposed that gunners/assasins are single hit characters and as such Navigator was not complying to that rule, especially for grinding.
AHE can do better job now.

Oh yeah... That was a pain!! But thankfully they switched it back fairly quickly.