June 2017 Tuning Discussion - PRELIMINARY

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Originally Posted by Askora

Which is why people would learn to rotate their defense frequently. I actually use one primary offense for the most part and I don't think that part makes it boring. I have a few alternates that I plug in from time to time, but one team does most of the work. It gives you incentive to try different combinations to work towards one team that is unbeatable when on offense.

It should be a challenge for ranked positions. I think the fact that the arguments against are because it would make it harder only help to prove that it should be taken as a serious suggestion. Let's give the AI a fair fight.

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Until I hear from top players on this matter my opinion will stay the same.
On another note doesn't that mean more rng and time spent on the game.

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Originally Posted by angelkelly

Until I hear from top players on this matter my opinion will stay the same.
On another note doesn't that mean more rng and time spent on the game.

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A good offense isn't RNG. Just as taking a warrior team against a sentinel team isn't so much strategy as it is common sense. PvP battles might take longer, but overall point totals would probably end up lower so you could probably play less for the same rank.

I'd like some feedback from more top players as well. Some from the devs wouldn't hurt either. Maybe they're waiting for more opinions.

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Originally Posted by Askora

T#1 - [...]Quit showing the attacker my talisman setup. It makes it much easier for the attacker to identify which toon poses the greatest threat based on talismans. You'd still need to show the buffs that are applied, so some would be obvious, but for the ones that don't apply a buff you'd only find out after that toon attacked and it triggered.

#2 - [...] Don't show what toons I have on defense. When the attacker goes to the battle screen, show them something like a relative strength for defense instead of what toons I have on defense. They'll find out what they have to fight once they go into battle.

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These are both interesting ideas, and they could certainly work well for some games, but they go against what we want to encourage in our game. We want to reveal enough before the battle that you have a sense for what you're going to fight, while not revealing absolutely everything so you can ensure you have a perfect counter, which is why we expose the characters before battle but not their exact strength/talisman loadouts.

If we tell you very little before battling, you end up just building a "blind attacker" team (ala what skauki pointed out) that you rely on and then have to build backups after that loses, which really just means everyone loses a whole lot more, and sometimes will see that they're going to lose before any character has even taken an action. And yes, there is the option of rotating your defense repeatedly to confound attackers, but suddenly you're making changing your defense more important than actually succeeding at attacks... it's just not the balance of power we want to strike with the Arena.

That said, while it's not part of our aim with the high volume of attacks we expect from engaged players with the Arena, there may be future PVP features that involve a more "blind" attacking in the future, but nothing that is explicitly planned out yet.

Finally, if you want more opinions on the matter, I encourage you to make a thread in the PVP Discussion subforum. Even if I'm unlikely to post in there, me and Kaz do monitor discussion in that subforum closely, and you'll more likely to get more PVPers weighing in on their thoughts. The discussion on the subject at this point has become quite tangental to the thread subject of preliminary tuning notes.

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Originally Posted by konstifik

While it might be best to leave this out of PvP, something similar would be great for autoplay in PvE. Would be great to forbid my Assassin Golden Son from casting Endure instead of attacking and telling my Nomad that he shouldn't use Mirage if there is only one enemy left, and so on and so forth.

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Yeah, that's definitely a possibility, but in people can easily get 100% win rates in most PVE locations with decent characters and talismans anyways, so the practical application of that right now isn't too high.

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Originally Posted by Askora

My primary reason for playing PvP is for iron coins as well. I don't think it would defeat that purpose, it would just make it more challenging. Arena store prices might need to be adjusted if it affects too many people's ability to gain iron coins, but overall I wouldn't think that would change much. It would only make it more of a challenge to compete for top spots.

If someone wanted to strictly farm for iron coins, they could just have a token defense. That way they could stay below the top 250 and always see what they're facing. Those wanting higher ranks would have to work harder to earn it. Maybe the rewards could even be bumped up to make it more worthwhile.

So far, the only real argument against it that I see is it could make it harder to beat the defense. Wow! If that's what people are worried about, why not do away with defense entirely and it can be about who spends the most on Sow. The AI is generally predictable, so you still have that advantage, everyone would just have to use a more balanced team.

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While I like your idea about going in blind, there is one big problem with it. It would give a huge advantage to players with good memories. I could easily memorize every defense after one battle and would know going in what people are using unless they change defenses frequently which only a few players do. Like Slauki said it would also cause players to just play with one team. I could use one team now and win 93-95%, basically against everything except for the Wrath/Soulless Demon/Angel of Fear/Grim Reaper teams. The same team could beat those teams if it wasn't for the Soulless Demon/Counterstrike bug that eliminates turns and the Angel of Fear with a passive that may trigger after 2 characters are already down, so I had to come up with a seperate team for those. I get into more trouble in this game when I experiment using other characters that seem like they would be better suited for a certain defense than just sticking with a familiar team. I think the nerfing needs to be done with at this point. It would make more sense just to make a lot more characters better than continuously making them worse. I agree with everyone that says we need less RNG, depending on luck just makes you not want to play. Something really needs to be done about the points lost for PvP. The max should be about 8 points. It is impossible to get a defense to hold without taking advantage of some bug. I took a bugged defense out and I have dropped from 16% to 9% but I would rather be at 9% than to get garbage holds

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Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB

These are both interesting ideas, and they could certainly work well for some games, but they go against what we want to encourage in our game. We want to reveal enough before the battle that you have a sense for what you're going to fight, while not revealing absolutely everything so you can ensure you have a perfect counter, which is why we expose the characters before battle but not their exact strength/talisman loadouts.

If we tell you very little before battling, you end up just building a "blind attacker" team (ala what skauki pointed out) that you rely on and then have to build backups after that loses, which really just means everyone loses a whole lot more, and sometimes will see that they're going to lose before any character has even taken an action. And yes, there is the option of rotating your defense repeatedly to confound attackers, but suddenly you're making changing your defense more important than actually succeeding at attacks... it's just not the balance of power we want to strike with the Arena.

That said, while it's not part of our aim with the high volume of attacks we expect from engaged players with the Arena, there may be future PVP features that involve a more "blind" attacking in the future, but nothing that is explicitly planned out yet.

Finally, if you want more opinions on the matter, I encourage you to make a thread in the PVP Discussion subforum. Even if I'm unlikely to post in there, me and Kaz do monitor discussion in that subforum closely, and you'll more likely to get more PVPers weighing in on their thoughts. The discussion on the subject at this point has become quite tangental to the thread subject of preliminary tuning notes.

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Thanks for the input Sparton. I can start a new thread once I get home. I'd like to copy and paste some of the discussion for and against so that people don't have to bounce between threads. Maybe some variation can be found that fits.

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Originally Posted by Chaosego888

While I like your idea about going in blind, there is one big problem with it. It would give a huge advantage to players with good memories.

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Just my perspective on this, not only people with good memory (I don't think have one), but since I play so much and we have constant names on ours lists, come mid Saturday I pretty much know every team by heart.

That is why sometimes I change my deffence on Saturdays, not that I think this makes a difference, maybe a good strategy if you think you really found something unique.

Best
gmac

Wow! I'm glad that i can for once agree with Sparton(might be my first time actually)nothing personal mate,we just have a different imagination of the direction that this game should be heading (surprized me, that you've played FF7-a big brownie for that!).

Still just in the first point:
1. you have to play alot more oponents 2x (writing their teams down or memorize them) =less variety of opponents played per session/wasted SoW =more time consuming
2. you lose more battles =less coins
I alread have to sacrifice the legendary soul eveey month to buy fragments and the skill shard.
3. people would be forced to constantly swap defenders to keep def % (the top guys would have to do 1 battle...switch def...battle....def) Lots more time consumed
4. no possibility to cherry pick easy wins when you don't feel like thinking much.

On the other point i have to diss agree. It's not about if you win but HOW FAST you win. so the application is there...

PvE script would save us time. making GOD a 6 move operation, instead of watching your AGS cast endure as the very first move of the battle (kinda just spews all your power out) or Eddies performing long fury animations to kill 1 demon with 1mm HP left.

That would almost feel like having the "instant" button(which i bet 99% of the players dream of having to save them few hours of RL a day.)

And my last comment is about GCR (mentioned by many before me).
You keep headlessly nerfing sympathetic chars left and right, yet you never touch the most obviouse suspect (SSD being the other one).

At least remove healing from her primary attack or the endure from power move!!! with the refresh bug helping her, she can survive a team of 3 heavy hitters and slowly revive the whole team again...AND ENDURE THEM!!! (she is almost like a GRE, AGS and [any random healer] in one)

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Originally Posted by Gmac

Just my perspective on this, not only people with good memory (I don't think have one), but since I play so much and we have constant names on ours lists, come mid Saturday I pretty much know every team by heart.

That is why sometimes I change my deffence on Saturdays, not that I think this makes a difference, maybe a good strategy if you think you really found something unique.

Best
gmac

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I have tried this some as well, never got any good results from it though. I honestly don't think there is any defense that is going to hold the top 25-50. Maybe once or twice but once they figure it out, never holds them again. It is usually talisman swaps that make more of a difference but that takes too much time to worry with

Lots of good ideas & a few i really dont like.. but main problem is that every new implementation will bring new bugs/error ecc.. please fix the game as it is now, then we can start talking about the future

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Originally Posted by Peppoah

There's one thing that I don't understand. The SSD is Soulless Demon, right? It can't have invisibility and counter talismans, as there are three green slots?
But I know the problem very well when you lose a hard fight just because of APMA. It should be like you wrote as the fight never happened.

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Pepp :)

Sure, it looked strange, yet actually I am quite sure of what I saw, despite the fact everything happen pretty fast... Of course it's not possible as you've pointed qiute right - I think that The Nomad has granted the hostile Green SSD vanishing, as he was build just for couterattack... Only this could've happen that invisible SSD had countered me...
Though the rest of the story remains vaild...

@ Devs: Today's got another 1 (one, uno, un, eins, один etc.) freezing sorcery for 12 SOT in Talisman Horde Secret Location... I mean that's enough, devs! Since now I'll be completely ignoring such fantastic ''deals'' of yours! Thank you for your generosity...

Out of curiosity... Sure I could have been stuffed blue Golden Son, PDK even Storm Eddie with some of these ones to spread the fear at the arena - this would be fitting to Sparton's strategy, but somehow I am NOT willing to try and gave some figures to community...

Cheers,

W