Danger: Odin in The Red

@Hugo: actually... methinks if our resources were just multiplied by 10 (30 blood instead of 3, et cetera) and refresh time divided by 10, then they could charge 1 blood * (percentage of Odin’s health / ten, rounded up) to fight Odin. Then, change Odin so he gives 2,000 clan points max with a 1-time 1,000 clear bonus. This could solve everything...

I think this is almost exactly what you said, but the numbers scared me off.

EDIT: The more I think about your suggestion, @Hugo, the more I like it. One of the Forums I was a part of once had a "solved" button. Honestly, if I had that option here I might exercise it.

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Originally Posted by Yup

Too much thinkin......

When Odin dies.. clan should get the 3K pts... doesn't matter if he started with 100% HP, 90% HP or 5% HP.. when he dies the clan gets 3k pts and every member of the clan should get the other rewards associate with a full-health kill.. skill shards, frags, tribute, etc.... the individual player that lands the actual killing blow.. should get MORE rewards.

think of it this way....

Odin kill is like a tier 5-6 sacrifice... decent rewards and all clan members get them each time Odin dies, clan gets 3k raid pts.
The killing blow is like a vortex fill.. better rewards and ONLY the player that dealt the killing blow gets those.

Other rewards are as they currently are.. based on dmg dealt.. so, if a player can full-kill Odin, he earns 6k raid pts for the clan plus other clan rewards AND the killing blow rewards for himself.

This eliminates and hesitancy to clean things up when Odin is in the red and actually causes a race to the Odin's death within the clan.... But also ensures the 3K pts for death is always awarded. Within the clan, anyone capable of a full-kill would need to work with the clan to ensure they are the only person fighting, otherwise its' a free for all...with little or no downside. Biggest drawback is communication.. if you want a full-kill you have to have clan members that will back off and let you start and end a battle. -- and the HP bar BEFORE entering the battle needs to ACTUALLY reflect the correct amount of HP Odin has -- so annoying to see it 100% green, start the battle and see he's got 30% HP left.....


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All this posted....

Devs most likely (hopefully) mapped all the rewards out. And I imagine they are how they want them to be with only quantities to possibly tweak. I suspect any change in HOW rewards are awarded is going to fall on deaf ears. They aren't exactly known for listening to player ideas.

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honestly this is the best suggestion i have seen for odin although less skillshards would be nice also the rewards should only be for people who damaged him

Well, @yup, if there was a individual clear bonus.. it could in theory be doled out more than once (no in-fighting, no sniping) so long as it was relatively small and clan rewards were not doled out this way (this could be taken advantage of too much by savvy clans). Or, the "Odin is being attacked!" option could come into play, and simultaneous clears made impossible.

@mateja: I think you did get me wrong, at least a little bit. So I'll try to summarize the crux of what I believe to be the problem.

The way the Odin raid is set up right now, a player can actively hurt his/her clan by playing at certain times, causing frustration and potentially in-fighting. What's worse, it's hard to truly coordinate the Odin fight with the tools we currently have at our disposal.

I don't necessarily think that all players should get the same, or more, or better rewards regardless of participation. But I do believe that anyone who does participate should be able to feel like he/she is doing his/her part, and each fight should be useful in the clan's progression toward its goals.

That's why I really like @hugo's idea of scaling blood needed to enter a fight. A player able to clear Odin could, under that system, get the same individual rewards for the same investment, and a player who isn't really playing (i.e. sends in a 3* Ed) might earn the same (s)he receives now (or worse, if rewards were scaled back after making changes). However, there would always be opportunity/incentive to battle an Odin in the Red, because your proportional rewards might end up being just as good for the investment you put in (less blood). In fact, this could be a great option for players worried they are not going to be doing as much damage. I also like the idea because it has... flavor. You have to admire flavor. Less blood to fight a weaker Odin. I like that.

The only problems I see with @hugo's idea are: it seems very different, perhaps scary, and perhaps complicated to implement. There would have to be a little rethinking to make it work.

Back to the origonal point: I'm not advocating for any change in individual rewards if Odin gained an "auto refresh." No one would be responsible for finishing Odins in the Red, however, which would benefit everyone.

Right, it seems that we are (more or less) on the same page. I may have taken my frustrations with people who are not able to beat something and immediately go try to make devs ease it up and put them in my response. Sorry about that, entitlement of any kind makes my skin crawl.
As for the topic at hand, there are some great ideas on here that could even be combined to make a better experience for all of us. Only thing we can do at the end of the day is give our feedback and hope that devs listen.

I'm really enjoying Raid Boss so far. Rewards are fair and it's fun coming up with different methods to attack him. Hopefully the devs work out some of the kinks (like players getting frozen out), but it is still in beta. Cleaning out a low health Odin is not the worst thing, it allows the clan to continue and you still get some rewards. It's really been a fun challenge and great addition to LOTB.

I'm going to continue to be the dissenting opinion.

There should be consequences for not being able to do as much damage and not coordinating well. A lot of these requests (especially the auto refresh) are removing any group aspect of raids aside from an arbitrary group of players having their totals added.

Yes, it sucks trying to coordinate with a chat system that is only visible in one place and there is no way of notifying you that someone said something.

If your clan is infighting or picking on players for not doing as well as others, that just sounds like a toxic clan which is not the devs problem.

well I did a raid before where I had to clean up my own mess. so for one Sands of Blood I got a measily 2 or 3 tributes. After having a think about it, in this situation they could just increase the tributes you get for the kill, maybe a bonus 5/10? If you do enough of those you still get enough tributes to buy things in the clan store like character fragments. Any other tweaks outside of better communication abilities would probably alter the whole dynamic too much. As clans we need to work together to solve issues like Odin being in the red, not just when he's at full health.

@thealchemist: I believe you’re suggesting a kill bonus (option #1), which yes, I believe does solve the problem. You don’t need much, just some incentive beyond what is there. If there was a small kill bonus and some other small effect (Odin rewards distributed immediately on kill to clan instead of delayed, or you get a ticker next to your name to show how many times you killed Odin) that might be even better. This second small “bonus” is not really a reward at all, but would show you’re a cooperator... which is great in Game Theory. If someone is taking on “clean up duty,” better they are recognized than be anonymous.

@MuzakMaker: Our clan is not having any problems, at lease on the surface. The fact remains that the situation is frustrating for all involved and could create problems. Odin can be better than that.

New Idea #4, V. 2.03:

"Continue Button."

After defeating Odin, you have the option of continuing the fight. Odin pops up fresh, and you can keep going.

All the benefits of auto-refresh; all the satisfaction of killing Odin.

Rewards would all be capped at what they are now (both individual and clan) for a full clear. However, you could max your rewards no matter when you decided to enter the battle.

Eh? Eh? I know @Musakmaker doesn't like it :-p.

Of course I don't like it. At this point we're reaching a point where we're just trying to change the point of raids to better fit our wants instead of adapting to situation we have.

Want the max rewards possible for fighting Odin? Either wait for Odin X to refresh or remember that you can fight a lower Odin. A full Odin 9 grants more than a red Odin X.

Yes this should be a group effort, maybe we should have Odin X have the 4 Million HP added back.


We already get a reward for killing Odin X. He's back at full health so the clan can get more points.

[Previous post deleted. Duplicate. My bad.]

Small point, but OK. Odin IX is not also in the read (theoretical). Now what?

If this were an individual challenge, I'm with you. Adapt to the situation; it doesn't need to be fair. When the Banshee Cosmic was broken and we were getting Banshee/LAD in gauntlet... and I already spent my LAD... I didn't send any tickets or make any posts. I tried to beat it, anyway. (And I did. With Killer's Ed. Boy, did that feel good.)

But we should not need to adapt to a situation that pits players against players, if unintentionally and not all the time. In this situation, the Devs should meet us halfway for a better experience for everyone.

I know you have your opinion and I'm not going to change it. Honestly, I wasn't planning on posting at all, but my "Continue Button" thing was still up on my screen and I thought I hadn't sent it off yet...

Still coming down off the high of having a working Pharaoh Dog Cosmic. OK? Don't judge.

It really does seem like the root of the problem is that you have a clan where everybody wants max rewards all the time and when they can't get those max rewards it pits those players against each other.

If your clan can't cooperate and give and take, that's not the devs fault and they shouldn't have to rework raids just to deal with that.

If all of the Odin's are in the red, then someone in the clan needs to just suck it up for the good of the team and be okay with only getting the minimum number of points.

I agree we shouldn't have to resort to outside resources to coordinate raiding.

There's also the fact that clans are limited to 30 people and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that small of a group to be able to work together and trade off clean up duty and soloing/doing massive damage.

Now of course as a player who wants all the shiny things and to max my own experience I always want to be able to do max damage to Odin. I just don't think that's a good idea for the game as a whole.

I respect your opinion, but don't dis on my clan, man. (Or woman.. but that doesn't have the same ring to it.)

Did you miss the part where I said I would never kick a player for engaging with content and wanting to play?

The problem is, we have players hailing from probably about ten different countries speaking about four different languages. And our Discord is optional. (We'd like to keep it that way.) So 1) I want to encourage players to play, whenever they can. And 2) I don't want them to feel obligated to attack or not attack at certain times but 3) this shouldn't create situations deleterious to all players.

And I said at the very beginning that I'm part of the problem. I shouldn't have to feel guilty for doing a really good job in a difficult challenge, but leaving Odin in the red because RNG and Odin cheats after about ten turns (Attacking through shields, immunity, and invincibility, sometimes all at the same time. Where in his skill set does it say he can do that?). I've also (as I said) gone in, only to come out again and see that someone else posted they were going in moments after I decided to, or moments before I exited. Some of these times, we're going to step on each other's toes, coordination or no.

I (male, but yeah that phrase sounds so much better with man) did not intend to insult your clan and I agree that it would be stupid to kick a player for engaging content and wanting to play. If you felt insulted I do apologize.

The thing is, none of that in your statement, to me, sounds like a problem with how Odin is set up currently. Since the actual raid battle is primary focus we shouldn't be adjusting that because some tertiary functionality doesn't function well or properly. The primary is working just fine (aside from that wonkiness you mentioned which I agree is annoying).


There is no good way to coordinate - Not Odin Problem, in game chat sucks I don't think any of us are going to ever say that in chat feature is great.

Feeling obligated to attack or not attack - Not an Odin problem, that's purely clan culture and a result of the fact that the rewards are too valuable for a horribly broken part of the game.

Stepping on other's toes because of attacking at the same time - Again coordination issue. Still don't see how that requires an entire rework of how Odin's health works. Miscommunication can happen sure but adding in that Odin's health can fluctuate, with the dev team we got, is for sure going to introduce more bugs into the system.

But as I've mentioned all of this just a place for us to get our differing opinions out there and might all be irrelevant once this buggy and only accessible to a few players part of the game leaves beta.

We could see an entire restructuring or maybe my dissenting opinion get's swept under the rug as "can't please them all". I never meant to insult or belittle your opinion as I see where it's coming from and I do think it's very valid. But, the devs and CS read these forums and I just wanted to offer up my differing opinion so that hopefully they can get a more complete picture of how players are feeling.

Plus it's not like I have anything else to do right now in relation to this game since the servers are crapping themselves.

The current system definitely needs tweaking. Since they changed the scoring, weak players inadvertently screw over the whole clan every time they play, by reducing the overall number of clan points available.

The clan feature is supposed to be about working together but is actively designed to turn clan mates against each other.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ElvisIsDead

The current system definitely needs tweaking. Since they changed the scoring, weak players inadvertently screw over the whole clan every time they play, by reducing the overall number of clan points available.

The clan feature is supposed to be about working together but is actively designed to turn clan mates against each other.

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This is the reason I’m advocating a change; it’s not really about rewards.

If you’re the person responsible for putting Odin in the Red, as stated ^^, it feels bad. And that’s silly, because you’ve done a good job on a tough challenge. It it were an individual challenge, I would just kick myself a few times (figuratively speaking) and regroup. NBD. Good effort/Engagement shouldn’t “let the clan down.”

This is the thesis of my (at this point) novella. I’ll be adding a Table of Contents and Chapter Titles next.

So just because a top tier clan can't play 100% optimized it needs reworking? I still don't get why the possibility of leaving Odin in the red needs a rework of his health system entirely.

If they did implement this "auto refresh" we're just going to get the raid points required for each level raised back up which would only benefit those of us in the top tier clans. The game is not just for us.

If you honestly feel bad (or your clan makes you feel bad) about doing your best even if it leaves Odin in the red that is the problem.

You did your best, if what you left bugs you that much either cough up an extra SoB (or buy one) and clean up your own mess. Your roster can hold up to 600 characters, there's no way all 600 of them are optimized to solo Odin X each and everytime. Have some on hand that specialize in clean up duty. There are toons that capitalize on missing HP. I find those are super useful when cleaning up Odin.

Compromise: All rewards based on damage dealt, maxed at 3000 raid points for clan and et cetera. (Difference between points for 100% Odin and 98% Odin possibly more frustrating than Odin in the Red. 1000 point difference? Seriously?) Small individual bonus for clearing an Odin no matter his starting HP

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Puntwothree

Compromise: All rewards based on damage dealt, maxed at 3000 raid points for clan and et cetera. (Difference between points for 100% Odin and 98% Odin possibly more frustrating than Odin in the Red. 1000 point difference? Seriously?) Small individual bonus for clearing an Odin no matter his starting HP

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that would be a nice adjustment. 1000 points for less tha 5% of max hp is way to much.

As much as the killing off then back to 100% health does my nut in, if you can find a time he's at 90-100% health: PoM Ed with as high HP as possible. S. Banshee W/ Impulse, Necropolis W/ Ragnarok/Echo Cosmic and S. Onyx Son W/ Alchemy absolutely annihilates him in one run. Simple fact is save those till endgame and your clan will climb way up there in the ranked rewards

@Hartacus: save what until Endgame now? I have Odin teams for Beginning, End, and Middle game. And they all kill. I can kill Odin 21 times easy. No need to save anything.

This post is not about getting advice for full kills. It is about making Odin fair so he is a force for clan unity as opposed to clan division. Someone going in on a full Odin and putting him at 98%... that subtracts from the clan’s potential (Fewer points can now be earned than had they not gone in). Odin should not be set up that way. I want to assume that person ^^ made an honest effort for the clan, and an honest effort for the clan should not be punished by the game’s reward system.

Again fully disagree. Odin's health is perfectly fine the way it's set up.

This still sounds like you have a toxic clan if people are getting upset because they have their "max rewards ruined". I've given plenty of reasons why his current set up can foster unity that I have listed throughout this thread.

TL;DR of those for a refresher, by having his health not regenerate you are actually forced to work together as a team to either take down Odin together (for smaller/newer clans) or coordinate/maximize your teams so that everyone who can solo odin does so in a way to fit those min/maxing needs(for the clans full of top tier players and/or whales).

If his health was always at 100% for everyone who attacks then it's just up to 30 players just having their totals thrown together which sounds a lot less like team work to me. There's no coordination or team work involved if you can don't rely on or (hopefully not) get hindered by your team.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MuzakMaker

Again fully disagree. Odin's health is perfectly fine the way it's set up.

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Perfectly fine?
99% damage = 2500 points + average rewards
100% damage = 3000 points + full kill rewards
The mathematics in me is outraged...

It's plain simple, it should be:
99% damage = 2970 points
100% damage = 3000 points

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rain88

Perfectly fine?
99% damage = 2500 points + full kill rewards
100% damage = 3000 points + average rewards
The mathematics in me is outraged...

It's plain simple, it should be:
99% damage = 2970 points
100% damage = 3000 points

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Agree 100% with this and rewards should be based on the % of damage you do to him with bonus rewards for finishing him off dead.

However, this does not fix or address the numerous issues present when 2 players enter and fight at same time because what happens is 1 player goes in, fights him from 100% to 0%. Meanwhile, while he was doing this, another player entered, did 20% damage and wiped. First player then gets rewards based on doing 80% damage instead of the 100%.

That mechanic is also a serious issue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Azile

However, this does not fix or address the numerous issues present when 2 players enter and fight at same time because what happens is 1 player goes in, fights him from 100% to 0%. Meanwhile, while he was doing this, another player entered, did 20% damage and wiped. First player then gets rewards based on doing 80% damage instead of the 100%.

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From my experience it's not like that. You will get full rewards if Odin is at 100% when you start, no matter how many players are in or how much damage they do. If it suits you, the entire clan can go in at once and everyone will get max rewards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rain88

Perfectly fine?
99% damage = 2500 points + average rewards
100% damage = 3000 points + full kill rewards
The mathematics in me is outraged...

It's plain simple, it should be:
99% damage = 2970 points
100% damage = 3000 points

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That I do agree with (as it's a complaint about rewards not health), but the OP thinks that Odin should always have full health when you attack which is the point I disagree with.

@MusakMaker please read the whole post. The Compromise eliminates the instant refresh from the equation.

I enjoy a good debate, but I thought we agreed you would stop bad-mouthing my clan on this thread? Please do so, or I will have to refer to you as NoiseMaker. I mean, it makes sense that a man who presumes a thing about a cloud would presume a thing about a clan he isn’t part of. But I am really, really asking nicely.

Points based on % damage, no refresh, small individual bonus for clear. This is the compromise. (Or if you like, idea.... 5? 6? Whatever.)

One more thing... because I just can’t seem to get all my ideas into single posts today. The individual rewards don’t seem to be affected when you kill an Odin from 98%. At least not in any sense I care about (they’re always good). It’s just the Clan points that are hurt... which doesn’t make sense.

That’s all.

-Fan of the game; “the OP”; noise-reduction specialist

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Originally Posted by Puntwothree

@MusakMaker please read the whole post. The Compromise eliminates the instant refresh from the equation.

I enjoy a good debate, but I thought we agreed you would stop bad-mouthing my clan on this thread? Please do so, or I will have to refer to you as NoiseMaker. I mean, it makes sense that a man who presumes a thing about a cloud would presume a thing about a clan he isn’t part of. But I am really, really asking nicely.

Points based on % damage, no refresh, small individual bonus for clear. This is the compromise. (Or if you like, idea.... 5? 6? Whatever.)

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I never said "You're clan is toxic" I said if people are upset about other people screwing each other that behaviour is toxic. It was your own words that are making it sound like your clan is toxic.

And as you can see from any of my other posts (like my last one, did you read?) I do agree that points should be based off of damage. I only missed that you finally conceded that refresh is a bad idea, as I tend to only skim posts of those who resort to name calling.

I assumed when you were talking about the 98% you were still talking about personal rewards. That's a mistake on my end.

I skimmed and assumed. For that I do apologize.

Oh... I conceded nothing. I still think “auto-refresh” is a good idea. It just wasn’t an element of this most recent idea. That’s why the most recent idea was a “compromise.”

You can call me a name, just don’t apply adjectives to my clan. Maybe I’ll call you @SoundsMaker, or someone who sometimes makes music, and sometimes makes noise. (Just another compromise.)

Thank you for acknowledging your skimming. I am also guilty of this from time to time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Puntwothree

Oh... I conceded nothing. I still think “auto-refresh” is a good idea. It just wasn’t an element of this most recent idea. That’s why the most recent idea was a “compromise.”

You can call me a name, just don’t apply adjectives to my clan. Maybe I’ll call you @SoundsMaker, or someone who sometimes makes music, and sometimes makes noise. (Just another compromise.)

Thank you for acknowledging your skimming. I am also guilty of this from time to time.

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Than, we will still have to disagree. And once more I'm not saying your clan is toxic, I'm saying ANY CLAN that derides, chastises or any sort of other negative action towards an other playing how they want to play is toxic.

Just for reference you should look up Muzak and see if it's actually a good thing.

Will do ^^. Haven’t done.

There has been no deriding or chastising, though, and whether or not you said it straight out I think we both know what your implication was. I am allowed to be displeased with implications.

The only thing I’m deriding and chastising is a reward system that invites division.

I think that point ^^ is to bed, at least on my end.

Point #2: of course we still disagree on some things. If we were both in total agreement on everything, we have both wasted a lot of time and a lot of words on bad skimming technique.

Haha. So Muzak basically is noise?

I have to say that improves my opinion of you.

My Sig, if you hadn’t noticed, is basically a self-effacing admission that my thoughts are a mess, but read carefully and there are some good ideas in there.

Yep I of course agree that discourse is necessary for society.

However I stand by my words that if ANY clan is being disrepectful to its players than it's a toxic clan. If your clan does that, it's toxic. If not, than it's not.

And while I disagreed with you at many points not once did I call YOU names which you have been doing all morning. If you want we can carry this over to a DM thread where we aren't clogging the feed but until then I do want to make sure the devs are aware (as they do sometimes read the forums) that the are players who DON'T see a problem with how Odin's health is set up.

Technically I didn’t call you a name, I implied that I *would* call you a name. At least that’s my story so long is yours is that you didn’t call my clan an adjective.

I apologize for any misinterpretations.

Aside: this is how I’m reading your toxic comment. (That’s a pun. You used the word toxic, also: the comment was toxic. But you are not toxic, and I would never say or imply as much.)

I pointed out that the current reward system has the potential to cause division. You’re saying: if division is caused, the fault is mine.

So if I said a chair has the propensity to collapse, would you say I must be a bad sitter? Because the chair does not always collapse, so I must be sitting on it wrong?

And if so, aren’t you assuming my chair has collapsed? Because that’s not what I said at all. I just suggested one rebuild the chair.

About the name I didn’t call you... and for once I will be 100% genuine: I hope you weren’t offended. I didn’t really mean to offend you, and if I did I’m sorry. By your own admission, I basically called you by your chosen name. Right? Is it offensive to be called by your chosen name?

In my clan I’m called all sorts of things that I didn’t chose. I take them as terms of endearment, whatever they might actually be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Puntwothree

Aside: this is how I’m reading your toxic comment. (That’s a pun. You used the word toxic, also: the comment was toxic. But you are not toxic, and I would never say or imply as much.)

I pointed out that the current reward system has the potential to cause division. You’re saying: if division is caused, the fault is mine.

So if I said a chair has the propensity to collapse, would you say I must be a bad sitter? Because the chair does not always collapse, so I must be sitting on it wrong?

And if so, aren’t you assuming my chair has collapsed? Because that’s not what I said at all. I just suggested one rebuild the chair.

About the name I didn’t call you... and for once I will be 100% genuine: I hope you weren’t offended. I didn’t really mean to offend you, and if I did I’m sorry. By your own admission, I basically called you by your chosen name. Right? Is it offensive to be called by your chosen name?

In my clan I’m called all sorts of things that I didn’t chose. I take them as terms of endearment, whatever they might actually be.

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The things is where I see a place for cooperation and unity you are seeing one for contention and division. The current health system encourages the clan to work together. The more you coordinate and work together the better your rewards will be. No reason to rework a crucial part of the raid because a clan can't work together.

In your analogy you see a chair that will break if you sit on it wrong and I'm wondering why would you sit on it wrong in the first place because almost any chair can be broken if you sit on it wrong.

Anything can be taken negatively or rude if you are looking for it to be. Just like the raid set up, sure I can sit there and whine and complain if other's aren't playing "as efficiently" as me but that is a personal problem that the game has no reason to fix. Either you can clean up your clan so everyone plays to your style or you can find a new one where players are of like mind. My first clan was trash, they had no regard to the clan as a whole so I left and found a clan that works together and fits my play style.

Fair, mostly. I just want it on the record that I am neither whining nor complaining about the faulty chair. I’m just making reasonable suggestions about how it might be made less faulty.

Whining and complaining without offering suggestions is an idea I feel neither of us could get behind.

I would add that my suggestions (especially the last one, which you seem to agree with.. though it does not give me everything I would prefer to get) do not destroy the cooperative nature of Odin, they only eliminate the (potentially) divisive aspects.