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*not part of the PVP beta*
The one thing I'm worried about is with the introduction of Talismans that they'll move the goalposts of the problem. Instead of everyone wanting to run a Prisoner, it'll turn into everyone wanting to run that anti-Prisoner Talisman set, which still makes PVP overly centralized in that regard.
That depends on wich are they planning for talismans. If they are planning a immunity for all or cannot be frozen for all, they are going in the worng direction. If they plan on a reflect back debuffs, they might go in the right direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kardas
@Nicko
Thanks! I put a lot of effort on him, I think he's very good in a defense. His proc could be 50% instead of 40% though, and have all green slots instead of one blue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost
Taking inspiration from actual passives some sets would make characters shine in some new way, a fully sharded warrior or assassin newborn of light with an immunity on passive would be a beast on any defence team but it's ridiculous to even try one now as with a prisoner as he's a handicap but for passive...
A hellhound style first turn immunity would be popular even just for self, put it on cleanser and you are good to go on 2nd turn prisoner or not, it's opening new perspectives of being competitive even without super rare toons and if not overpowered can be a great thing for less hardcore players or those less fortunate with the RNG without killing interest in rare toons like Mr #6...
Green Pyro is great char for pvp... I use him in at least 30% of battles, and he saved my ass so many times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sag7272
As for the prisoner, talisman set would be useless (even if you forget that you lose one other skill/effect for it) because (probably) you would have to activate it with a perfect shot... and if you don't go first, we're back on square one...
Loll wasn't ment against your pyro was thinking at a false joy a while ago, in PvP he's surely useful 😂Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringe666-7406
But as I understood, again, they are ment as fake passives not to be activated so yes they would work against a prisoner... If everything work as I understood
Yeah, my guess too is that ability would be granted at the beginning, like +15% HP, but if not, then it's all for nothing...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sag7272
If it's in the options insted of a nerf it can't be otherwise..Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringe666-7406
The only way I know to get a shield on first non started turn otherwise is to use revenge passive and with luck a void shield is up at first hit 😊... But we're out of luck as it's a passive
Exactly! One of the biggest problems the devs have with the prisoner is if you have him you will put him on your team, regardless of what other characters you have. Making talismans that counter him will just make it so everyone with a prisoner will still have him on their team and everyone else will have to ditch whatever talismans that have good synergy with their team to equip these new talismans just to counter the prisoner. We'll be stuck ditching a bunch of very hard earned 5* talismans to grind and level up a bunch of new talismans just because the prisoner is OP in PVP. That doesn't sound like something I'm willing to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kardas
I'm not included in the PVP beta test, but I think that the best solution is to nerf him someway only if used in PVP, but in campaign mode he can remain as he is now, so he can be part of both worlds without problems.
Best possibility so far, somebody up there even explained it thoroughly... I also like 'ban him from arena' idea, but then nothing can counter AoF i.e. and he is already OP imo... Third best is to make first turn prefictable (i.e. lower rank attacks first, or defense attacks first) and then find some green team to take heavy damage for one and probably two turns ('cause if freeze, stun, etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by mikmar
I do just wonder if this is all about those who have him and those who do not? I have him but not used him and not in PVP yet so no ideas as to his importance but what I can see is that (as others pointed out) he is quite rare and he has not much else at all going for him other than the passive? So I can see why he works well in PVP and I can see how he works well in grind. If you mess with the passive it ruins both aspects of the game surely? So really it is why have this toon if you remove the only thing he is good for? Or am I missing something?
If there are special talismans or a revised passive on a different character that can help against a Prisoner why not do that as that means he stays as is for everyone. If the future of the game is PVP (not so sure that it is if new content comes out in the shape of new worlds or other new content) then Prisoner (being quite rare) should still be available as he is I think.....or if the consensus id to nerf him then he needs some other boost to what he does on other attacks or passives I think.
I am sure there are other characters that have the limelight in PVP but not much idea as not played it yet - so if Prisoner gets hit then does other strong PVP toons need to come next and if so which ones? Red troll, hellhound, red bat.......?
All other toons that seen to be OP are not in fact. They all have means of countering, be it cleanses, buff removal, etc. Prisoner has NO counter. And he's not that rare, see a previous post I made: outta 10 players 8 have him.Quote:
Originally Posted by scott-5496
All right, but nobody want to make The Prisoner a useless char that will sit on the bench forever because the best power that he has will be removed.
He is a 5* char and he is a good char only for his passive capability.
So my opinion is to mantain his passive power in campaign mode and to change it in the Arena in a way that I don't know.
I don't like new talismans only to counter on him.
Another idea : make the Cop character that have the power to put the Prisoner in jail again :D
Nobody wants this. We just want to make it so he's not mandatory and don't break the game like he's doing now.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikmar
Yes, we need a Cop for him I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost
If we don't want to introduce a new char that can stop him, we may think to give to an available char (Droids ?? Soldiers ??) a way to fight against him
Don't have a prisoner, I'm in PVP.
Thoughts on talisman solution.
1. Make this "special talisman" universal like blind/freeze.
- will neuter the prisoner, don't care what the requirements are, very bad idea. Setup 4 toon attack team with talismans and destroy.
2. Make frequency so that it is a one-off like meteor/comet and a 3 set. Maybe 1 time gift to players as they enter PVP for first time. Assume it is a 3 set, and blue with 1 arcane, 1 power, 1 sorcery. [I won't get us started on comet discussion ;) ] I would put the 3 set on mummy Eddie or green allied soldier, after first prisoner team hit, this character would have immunity, and hopefully alive, cleanse team and destroy. Still as a single 3 set, this would neuter prisoner. No matter the color, a 3 set would neuter the prisoner.
3. Make the frequency a one-off gift, and make it a 4 set. If the color of the 4 set Is green or blue, use approach above, and destroy. A 4 set of yellow or red, that might work? Purple not good idea. This again addresses the prisoner as a defender.
We've largely discussed him as a defender, but his value on offense is equally a challenge. Maybe more so. Having him on the offense probably guarantees a win given the lack of perfects possible on defense side.
I still believe the best adjustment is a tweak were his passive also affects him for the first round. Not much unlike Vision Eddies Fury move and the stun. Leaving his passive beyond the first round is still highly valuable and provides competitive advantage...keeping him 5* Ish. His "Cop" is another prisoner.
I'm with Nicko again, in that the community gravitates toward the character with the most advantage. The prisoner is a hard character to come by, and for all those that spend time/money to try and get him and do so, they should have his advantage. Too much nerfing and like Nicko asserts, we will all move to the next toon and the outrage will continue. The argument that we want to see many varieties of defenses at the top might not ever happen.
I, again yesterday, went second against a top 10 team with Prisoner/Perfect Hit Passive and won. Skin of my teeth, but I pulled it off. This just to prove that as the attacker it is possible to win, and any nerf should be subtle/slight. (Reduce Prisoner win rate when he goes first from 95% to like 70-80% or something?). Any significant adjustment neuters him. I don't have him, wish I had him, but I spend my time/effort other ways.
At the end of the day we need to keep him a 5*. Any talisman solution needs to be well thought out. Solution should address him on both attack and defense side, and be gentle. Not a easy answer.
PS. Sorry, mates, if I attack you, nothing personal. ;)
Thanks again Devs for the discussion. Hoping we get to the right solution/balance.
Where are you getting the win rates from mine is like 15-20pct in defense so nerf him so I lose 100 pct as I don't have cg red bat warrior troll hellhound ad corrupt droid tail gunner Eddie ggs
I feel I should lose my 5 star character because other people don't have him so please please take him away
I didn't have time to read the whole thread, so I'm sorry if this have already been suggested and discussed, but another way to balance The Prisoner would be to apply the passive block to his own team as well. So if you have him on your team, none of your passives will apply. This would not make him useless, specially not in the defensive team, and he would still be useful in PVE, but it would take away the OP combinations such as Prisoner+Red Troll.
This has been suggested a couple times. I really like the way CanyptianFit framed it; affecting both teams first round only. Gives the opposing team equal ground in the first round and then maintains some of his specialness after by only affecting other team. Great ideaQuote:
Originally Posted by konstifik
I also think it's an interesting middle ground to keep him powerful & useful while excluding some of the most deadly combo for one turn, giving defense time to prepare...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
that could be a really interesting approach, since this would let him pretty strong and bring more balance in. i could live with that solution too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
but i think, the devs have already some talismans solution in mind, which they will implement when BNW comes out anyway. but some interesting talismans would give the game more depth, that's why i would give them a chance.
only thing i'm afraid of is that this will take very long, till this is finished. unfortunatly PVP seems to be frozen atm, till they figure out what to be done.
That's a good way to do it. It makes sense to start with this change, and if it proves to be too little, they can make it so that it affects both teams for more (or all) rounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
I like a spinoff idea of this: Leave Prisoner's passive alone but have it kick in on the 2nd round instead of immediately. Gives opponents a fighting chance to set something up and leaves his powerful ability in tact. This will also still leave him almost unchanged in PVE.Quote:
Originally Posted by konstifik
If it were easier to get the Prisioner, this post would not exist. That simple . All this starts with the ridiculous DropRate of JokeofSouls.
This situation of this particular character is comical to see and sad for those who face a team like that of PizzaFryday, Nicko, Demonchind .. even more if they start attacking .. I do not even bothered more, I even laugh.
Before launching the arena, I imagined something else of what it is today, imagining a room where players entered and faced 100% without AI (defense in the case). Each using what's best for each type of battle, not this system set up a kind of team for defense and simply facing players who can choose what they will use in battle. I know ... It's too weird for me.
To be honest, I do not even care about raking, I care about the coins I win, choosing my opponents (another thing I think is ridiculous in this arena, choosing an opponent).
I expect many improvements in the game a long time, improvements that I say is for players and not for developers ($$$)
Another potential solution.
The problem we are trying to address is not the prisoner by himself, it is the prisoner coupled with the perfect passive that makes him deadly. Him coupled with certain passives essentially negates any chance for a turn/hit.
How about an alternate solution were we leave the prisoner unaltered, but we alter the perfect passives and the accuracy passives so that they are disabled by any prisoner on either side.
Just like the prisoner has a note (does not work on bosses), those 2 passives could have a note (disabled/removed by ANY prisoner).
This addresses the core issue, leaves him untouched.
Do you void the passives skills altogether both rounds? (Accuracy and perfect are 2 round buffs)
Just remove first round?
Other passives that should be included beyond the 2 mentioned?
Include the Siege Passive as one that negates Perfects and Accuracy during first round?
Trying to think outside the box.
Cheers!
I struggle with the idea of putting a toon in a line up that would have an adverse effect on my own team.
Having him shut down my own passives? I would rather find something else for that slot.
this is probably too much a nerf. Prisoner would be dead by the second round.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillLion
I think this is wrong - if everyone had the prisoner, everyone would be using him, and it would be very boring having to fight the same defense all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by calizario
This is also a good idea - I agree that the problem isn't just with the Prisoner, it's the combination of him with DM & freeze/stunners (which also won't be as bad once the multi-hit proc issue gets fixed).Quote:
Originally Posted by CanyptianFit
Almost unchanged for someone who don't use it, most passives are one round buff, would let him useless at the only thing he does...Quote:
Originally Posted by BillLion
On another hand since his only counter is self applying it to both teams first turn would give the same chance as if you have one giving time to set immunity/shield then act as intended on next turn...
Think it's overcomplicating things for nothing,Quote:
Originally Posted by CanyptianFit
If there's no passive first round it gives chance to kill/counter any such combo, DM have something like 20k health in best case not 40... If you can't counter with a no passive first turn to use a shield or something problem isn't the DM or prisoner...
We'll all that taking into account the multiple hits nerf to come that will change perspective on that prisoner/DM by a good margin making Golden Sons way less scary...
Boy, you're full of great ideas! Neutering the first round of Perfect Hit and accuracy sounds like a really fair solution. It's really that combo, combined with the broken Talismans, that have people up in armsQuote:
Originally Posted by CanyptianFit
I was thinking along same lines. Leave prisoner alone. Instead modify axis bomber boys focus/increased accuracy passive to include overriding passive aggressive skill
Similar to when you apply blind to desert marauder, his perfect hit passive overrides it.
and troll shield, immunity, block, extra turn and revive :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
well, what's next? This sounds like a discussion on whom to nerf next.
I have the prisoner, yet rarely use him. Yes, he is a good counter to all damage-blockers, revivers or the warrior troll, but his single attack and somewhat complicatet stat-scaling make him hard to equip. (mine runs a frozen set together with an invisibility bulwark set).
Talking about fearful encounters in pvp. I read somewhere here around, that warrior troll and corrupt general are a hard combo. (a friend of mine has 3 corrupt generals, have fun, when you meet him - when pvp is available to all)
Anoother long match combo could be any reviving team, like pharaoh eddie, pharaoh water ghost and corrupt rescuer. Add a golden son with thief talismans and you can have a very loooong match ahead.
Yet pharaoh eddies invularability is reduced to 2 rounds. As i remember, when i used him from troopers way back to beat underworld madness, it were 3 rounds. Just got him in my ~50.000 (feeled that way) sentinel soul and just checked that. (was he on the character tuning list? going to check now) Now i only used the pharaoh from a trooper when playing lightbringer madness, which is once every 4th day.
A three CG team should be fairly easy to beat if you have Hellhound or Artillery Dog and a team with CG and Warrior Troll should be fairly easy to beat if you have the Hellhound/Artillery Dog and the Prisoner/Angel of Pain/Death Dog. A team with The Prisoner and two CG, or The Prisoner, Warrior Troll and CG however, will be much harder.Quote:
Originally Posted by satani
This discussion is not because The Prisoner alone is hard to beat but because certain combinations of characters including The Prisoner (and equipped with certain talisman sets) may be next to impossible to beat. This is also partly because talisman effects process a lot more than they should.
A green bat with full shards is a good counter to the prisoner.
Use his power ability, that will give the bat immunity and invincibility for 3 rounds.
So you get to attack 2 round, refill your power points and do it again.
Guess what? His passive wont work, so it will not block, and unless someone removes beneficial effects he is pretty much immortal.
You can take the whole team with the bat alone, I've done it a number of times.
Not pretty, but very effective.
Cheers
Leave the prisoner Alone! (No, I dont have one)
1) I've done the same thing with CR Eddie's Ghost. Not pretty, but effective (and for 4 turns), except for when I got frozen despite having immunity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmac
2) There's no problem with any prisoner team if you go first. I've found very few defense teams I can't cripple or destroy in one round (and the ones that do stand up usually need toons that aren't part of this broken mechanic). The problem is if there is a prisoner and DM (perfect hit passive) along with either a golden son (using the multi-hit proc bug) or corrupt general and/or some AoE eddie with freeze/stun talismans. Your whole team can get frozen every turn until you're dead. So no chance to use your bat.
Yes, I totally agree,
But that is not a problem with the prisoner having no counter. (Nice to hear that CR Eddie does the job too, dont have one).
And nerfing the prisoner will not solve the multiple hit/frezze/stun thing, thats what needs solving.
By the way, the prisoner is transferring silence despite the bats immunity. For me thats the only thing that needs fixing regarding the prisoner...
...meanwhile I made a second full built green bat until its fixed :-)
Against prisoners teams I usually go with both green bats, and two allies to cleanse, just need to use shriek once and its game over.
Agree that multi hit thing needs to get fixed first. But I think the problem isn't just that there's no counter (he's supposed to be rare and very powerful), it's how it makes certain teams (nearly) unbeatable. Happy to agree to disagree here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmac
I'm pretty sure the Prisoner's Silence is intended to override immunity and not be cleansable (I think there are one or two other skills that have that attribute - they all have a silver icon instead of red debuff icon). So whether it's fair or not, it is intended to be that way.
And I'll say this - a team with 2 green bats would be beastly, at least to my team which relies on the AoF's extra turn passive. In it's bugged form, it would be really hard to get it to trigger if there are two blockers.
Gmac, your bats are deadly. Learned that the hard way.
Nice job.
😝
You've got a lot of good feedback here. What are your current thoughts?
Do you have an approach identified yet?
We've taken many of the ideas you guys have posted and added it to our internal list for evaluating the tech cost/expected impact, but we don't have a decision levied yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by CanyptianFit
As other people have noted, we are interested in adding new kinds of talismans with Brave New World, and so we may just take into account answers for the Prisoner with that, but we're not sure if we'll go with just that or do something else in conjunction yet.