Well I ment with a single hit chance like against all non Golden sons...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
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Well I ment with a single hit chance like against all non Golden sons...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
Yeah I don't like seeing characters nerfed. It feels like we're going backwards when that happens. I thought the purple pyro people eater had the same passive as the DM. Your saying they don't work the same? thats odd.
So according to some guys I'm a whinner because I say Prisoner has no counter...
Even when top players say they never attack someone without a Prisoner themselves, and 7 outta 10 players in top have a Prisoner...
So it's simple. Dev teams start takikng statistics on the winning percentage of teams with him.
C'mon guys, Prisoner alone is fine, but couple him with one or two toons and you know you'll win almost 100% of the time. You know he has no counter, even with a fully maxed team you will lose if you go second no matter what you throw at him.
Or leave it as it is, when the release of PvP goes global it will be 10 outta 10 players with Prisoner and it'll be decided by who goes first anyway.
Frost, I often go for second against prisoner, troll and CG, and due my corr rescuer gunner or just a bit of luck, I hold the opposite team winning the match. It's all about some key strategy steps, even the order of attack opposite team, for instance. U never know...
Agree Shaolin85london I beat The prisoner going second with character selection and a bit of luck. Definitely a challenge, but doable. Yesterday I had a number of "top 5" prisoner hits and faired ok.
Well regarding the prisoner he does have a counter and that's to have a prisoner yourself
Blame the RNG not the mechanics
As for always winning if goes first that is not correct
Going first does gives an advantage to whatever team you have but is not gaurenteed by any means
What we are saying Frost is don't give up hope. Keep trying different strategies and improving your team. It can be done bud!
:)
one further argument against the prisoner...
once you have him in this state of the game, you will put him into your defense, no matter what. He is a must have atm if you want to have a great defense.
Yeah there are more great defenses without him, but he is the most powerfull character in PVP atm.
So if nothing changes in a few months 90% of all defenses will have a prisoner in it, because there is no way around. That's the best proof how imbalanced the situation is atm. Once you got him he is part of your team. We need at least one or two more characters with the same passive and things would be better i think. Or if the passive removes also the own passives things would also be better IMO.
Nicko mentioned several times, that prisoners are popping up like mad in PVP. IMO that's a big bias. They are not popping up like mad, it's simply
that the guys who have him, will be at the top of the PVP leaderbord most likely. So most you see is prisoners out there in the top 25.
Do you really want to play against same defenses again and again? This is really hurting the game dynamics.
I don't think it's accurate to say that Slauki, he's just not rare anymore. A number of people have mentioned recently getting him. Someone I know (not me, though I have two) mentioned getting his THIRD Prisoner.Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
Most I see with Prisoners in their defense do NOT have Hellhounds or Assassin Rocket Dogs so it's still possible to stun/freeze/taunt them. He's just deadliest combined with a DM
Ah, but good sir, the reality is that no matter what changes you make, there will always be a reasonably short list of characters that work best for defence, and these will always be the characters that people will use in various combinations, once they get them. Regardless of changes too, there will always be a single best defensive character... would it not be best if that character was indeed somewhat rare?Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
Sticking with the Prisoner as an example, if his passive was given to other characters, you would see those characters showing up in people's defences when they were available too, and, unless the characters had the exact same other abilities as the Prisoner, you would see some used in defences more than others. By giving this passive to other characters then, you would end up with more defensive teams built around the same characters than ever... not less.
The bottom line is, no matter who you nerf, some characters will always be better than others, and this is what makes them desirable, and what will make people keep playing to earn and and paying to buy souls in order to be lucky enough to pull these characters. The Prisoner is currently the strongest (arguably--at least, the one you fight latest in the game campaign) boss character that can be drawn... does it not make sense that he would be one of the most desirable characters?
Yup. Like I said - not rare anymore...
And it's then a chicken - or - the - egg argument
Are a lot of these players at the top because they have Prisoners? Or do they have Prisoners because they play a lot and managed to score them - just as they're playing PvP a lot?
And yes, luck comes into play - you can play a lot and not have a Prisoner, or barely play at all and get lucky on one rare soul. But point is - Prisoner is no longer "rare", and these players have likely put in a good deal of grinding to get him - just as they do in PvP to rise to the top. It's the effort that's put them at the top more than a single character
If I remember correctly...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB
@frost No 2 def teams are the same except where you posted same players twice so there is still some diversity.
Not sure I'd agree he isn't rare. I've played since day one and have no Prisoner, CG, Hellhound, or some of the other meta PVP characters. I think people that have him put him in their team -and so we see him a lot more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
I'm not sure what should be done or if anything should be done at all. It just sucks that when I attack a prisoner team (with the proper support) I am guaranteed to lose, and often don't even get to control one character even one time, if I go 2nd. So my hope isn't on my solid defense (because Prisoner renders that null & void) it's whether or not I win the coin flip to go first. Not fun.
I just attacked pizza and won because I went first. I attacked Nicko and lost because he did. This is the way it goes, which forces people to think twice about attacking prisoner teams - which in turn gives an inherent advantage.
And to everyone's point -the moment I get a prisoner (if ever) I'll drop him in my PVP team too.
I don't know if you can say that unequivocally, to be fair... it's only 9 defense teams represented here (Miklos and mattyJ appear twice) out of what... 2000 or so defense teams in the Arena? Granted, there are certainly other examples of defense teams out there with the Prisoner too, but I would suggest the sample of defense teams with him would still statistically be significantly less than those without in our beta player pool... I'd guess maybe 10%? If that? Still relatively rare. (And yeah, that number is a pure wild guess, but an educated one, I think--at least, it's based on my own observations in the Arena... I'm no researcher. :cool: )Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
Anyway, to me, it's the differences in these teams that are more interesting than what they have in common. Everyone went with the combinations of characters that they had in their arsenals that they felt would work best to earn them some holds. I can't speak for anyone else, but I can say that my own team was constantly evolving to reach the line-up they ended on (even somewhat desperately so, when they failed to hold a single time in more than 5 days--lol) and even now, there are other characters I'd consider rotating in, if/when I ever get them. Defense teams, much like attack teams, should be as fluid as possible, I would argue. The fun is in making the most, as I've said, of what you have, and it's only natural that we'd all want to put our best characters forward to have the AI fight for us.
Also, @Nicko: I agree with your chicken/egg analogy too. Well said. :cool:
The only ones that are really deadly are the ones paired with the DM for me. I have no prisoner, so no way to avoid the slaughter if I don't go first.
Point taken, and certainly I could be wrong as far as commonality. It just seems like there were a LOT more Prisoner teams after the Christmas event. That may be a one-off.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillLion
And I lost against Demoonchild today - who has the exact same defense as mine - without making a move. And I have a Prisoner;). It's the Talismans that are the issue - if the Golden Sons hit you perfectly you're done. Once that gets fixed I think this discussion will really die down
Yeah, that will help for sure. And in the meantime we all use them to our advantage :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
Yeah, maybe more so offensively than on defense. No ones talking about it cause it's to all our advantages, but there are some rediculous things you can do with multi proc hitters on offense too.
But the Prisoner being the only counter to the Prisoner is the problem. When a character's only reasonable counter is the opposite side having the same character, then it becomes a game of "have that character or lose substantially more", and it makes every team force themselves to dedicate 1 or 2 slots to specific characters you'll then see everywhere (which is what we see a lot of in the top 25... but also in a lot of the lower rankings, too).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
Yeah, in the end, that's the goal; we don't want everyone to win 50/50, and we want people with better stables of characters and the skill to know how to best pair them up to have better win rates than others. We just feel that some characters create massive spikes in capability to achieve high win rate, and commonly it doesn't have to due with specific synergies the characters have, but in their raw presence and power that start invalidating many more opposing options than intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
That is precisely what we'll be doing next week (and I guess to a degree what we've started in there). We'll start with a few characters that on our end we specifically want to look at, but I'll also be opening the a dedicated thread for others to make their case if they think there's something we on the design team are missing, so we as a community can look at and discuss what'll make Legacy of the Beast's PVP as dynamic, competitive, and fun as we can for as much of our players as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
It's not a problem that the Prisoner is popular/valuable in PVP. We knew that well before PVP would launch that he would be popular. Our oversight is that there's no practical answer to him without using him.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Educated fool
If we introduce other characters with the same passive, we haven't solved the problem. We've just made it so there's a shortlist of characters with X passive you need to bring to have a top-end defense. Team building on defense still stagnates in basically the same way.
Our goal is that there should be viable combinations of characters/talismans that can meet or exceed the value of having a prisoner on defense, even if that means it's much harder to get such a combination. Right now, it doesn't look like that exists, and due to the nature of why he is so dominant, there may not be anything without changing the nature of how his passive works (such as no passives for everyone, or only some characters getting locked down, etc).
Yeah, that's a good question, and something I'll be continuing to review next week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
RIP my intentions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sag7272
Interesting. I suppose then my questions must become why should there be characters that exceed the value of the Prisoner? And which characters are then more worthy to be the best ones? I honestly don't get this criteria at all, and legitimately wonder about the answer to these questions... but I've asked similar questions in this thread already without reply, so I doubt the answers are forthcoming. Ultimately, I'm just a random player anyway, and some things may simply not be meant for me to know. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB
At this point though, based on your conclusion here, the nerf bat of Damocles seems destined to fall upon the Prisoner no matter what, so further discussion in another thread would seem entirely unnecessary anyway, from my perspective. At least I can save myself some time. :cool:
Idk if this classifies as broken but using holy smoke's hunt on an enemy that has a 2-4 burns (physical ones) usually insta kills him. Pretty op, it one shot the freaking sentinel beast... also tried it in pvp against some of the really low ranks, it usually still one shots everything... pretty powerful, but idk if broken cuz it depends on burning talisman for me with the red bat, but since there's the desert guy's perfect hit passive that procs talismans his could be a pretty good tactic, thou using bugs to win is dirty af
I've got to give the devs credit. The more I play pvp the more I'm impressed with the delicate balance they have achieved with the character builds. The prisoner has his weaknesses, is clearly powerful, but also requires more work to get. The G/A soul is the most pricey, so you have to give a lot to try and get him. If you spend your points on souls for the chance to get him, there is a difference then spending your points on shards. Trade-off.
I got a G/A rare soul on on the last round of pvp, and heard Bruce's scream only to get my second gunner Golden son. I was hoping for anything but a dupe.
I really was perplexed with Slauki's comments that the defenses would be a lot more diverse without the prisoner. I think so and maybe not. Still wondering on that.
At the end of the day I'm glad that the first person to attack is random, as that gives me a chance to win. Again, I'm not afraid of the prisoner, certain builds will almost guarantee a win if going first with him; and if I had him I would have him in my defense for sure. But I'll take that chance.
Top 5 teams be lenient on me. 😍 Please!
This decision on how to counteract him is not to be taken lightly. If he his to have a counterpart they should be an assassin I'm guessing. Hard to get with similar shortcomings.
Love this game damn it.
Or a 60-70% chance his passive kicks in. 50% is too much of a nerf��Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB
Disabling ALL passive so for both teams? Kind of like Visions Eddie stuns himself? Also an interesting idea...he couldn't be paired with the DM effectively anymore
The intent is not to say we want other characters to exceed the value of the Prisoner. The intent is that certain combinations of characters should exceed the value (ie allow you to get a higher winrate) than any old team which splashes the Prisoner.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Educated fool
Which isn't to say we don't want him to be good in a team for attacking or defending, or even that we want to make it so there's more teams which have high win rates without Prisoner than those which do. We just want to ensure that the top teams will not always want to pick the Prisoner if available, no questions asked.
I struggle with the idea of nerfing the Prisoner in the name of PVP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
So the best plan is to nerf a toon for one aspect of a game, running the risk of rendering it useless for the rest of the game?
Hmm, sounds pretty weak to me.
If people are so cheesed off about seeing him in PvP lineups, ban him from PvP. Just don't trash him for the rest of the game. The Prisoner is as solid a toon that LotB has in terms of balance in both the campaign and the dungeon.
Kind of like a Prisoner, a Desert Maurader, a Golden Son, and a Tailgunner Eddie ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB
Maybe this should be in the bugs thread, but is anyone else experiencing weird things tonight? I just lost two matches in a row, to the same team, because invisibility was removed when no characters on the opposing team had the ability to do that. I'm confused.
Did you hit someone that had void shield? void shield has a chance to remove buffs from the enemy team... Yeah, they are pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFreeze
If thorns or other talismans existed this Prisoner thing would be solved. He can't disable talisman passives, can he? I never had a chance to test. What if you reintroduce thorns and other kinds of talismans, or even change some like blizzard shield to give a passive shield much like repel does, that affects all team and then one every round...
It was removed when their team was attacking. It was bizarre.
Prisoner has no effect on talismans, just the passives. You can freeze him all day if he doesn't have immunity.
I had a situation we're all my beneficial stats transferred to the enemy while I attacked him/her with my hellhound. Was a total glitch and I ended up losing.
Was really weird. Clearly a glitch.
My hellhound attacking a grim reaper Eddie, and while I was attacking my beneficial stats transferred to them before I finished. Really?
:0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB
That's not what I mean... if you wanted to have a defense that could be good against an attack team like that, and you have every character but the Prisoner... would you wish you had the Prisoner, or do you think you could make a defense that could be better than one which included the Prisoner?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
If you made the prisoner remove all passives then he becomes an offensive player only, there would be no need to put him in defense team at all. As for his offensive ability stun for 2 rounds is good but he will mess up a lot a synergies so probably would not be used a lot and would kill him for campaign.
So on balance I would rather see him removed from pvp over a change to remove all passives
It's a very difficult decision for the devs to make
But this rebalancing of characters has been going on for quite some time even before the devs launched beta PVP. Corrupt General was one of the ones people took the hardest, but even people that have him see how this makes sense in PVP. Unfortunately, nerfs (or rebalancing) are necessary to create a fun, competitive PVP environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by RCarter
We all just feel it should happen to the character we don't have. :)
Yesterday my son told me that my Def team was solo OP, yes, I have a Prisoner... I tell him, "dear son, a team is just as OP as people think..."
And I try my team with a non Prisoner Team, and I went second, and I was able to win with no Allies killed.
My team wasn't even skillsharded, the talismans are not maxed neither...
I just use the same strategy that I use against refrigerator teams, high Hp and Def, AOE, and heal/debuff...
Prisoner is not a problem, is that people that makes everything a problem if they cant resolve it...
The Prisoner's passive is just way too powerful right now. He counters so many defensive strategies that would help you win if you were going 2nd, like using a Hellhound for the immunity or a Troll so as the other team doesn't wreck you, he even counters Angel of Pain (a.k.a. Blue Bat)'s Siege... Basically the point is he has no counter, except himself which makes him way too valuable in PvP right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB
So to answer your question - I don't think that right now there's a way you could make a better defense w/o The Prisoner than one with him.
Sorry, if Prisoner is not a problem, why you have the same exact team as Nicko? That team is pretty much op and you will win 90% of the time, being it 100% of the time if you go first. It's a clever team? Yeah, but it abuses every broken mechanic in the game:Quote:
Originally Posted by Demoonchild
- Multiple hits triggering talisman effects;
- DM passive triggering talisman effect 100%;
- Thief talisman filling the fury bar in one hit;
- Prisoner having no counter
Don't try to hide the problems. We all know that is broken and will be fixed/balanced. To say it's not is just a try to protect your team to easy wins.
I don't know if that's true. If he's on your defense, it still neutralizes Hellhounds so you can stun, Trolls so you can get damage in, etc. But it also makes you vulnerable as well...Quote:
Originally Posted by Roquetas-5312
I'm not saying this is the best answer. I agree this is a very challenging decision for developers. Other options are working as he currently does a certain percentage of the time (ex 60% chance to disable opponents passives), disabling one random opponent passive, or leaving him alone ;)