Been much better todayQuote:
Originally Posted by Silentknight
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Been much better todayQuote:
Originally Posted by Silentknight
After the update PvP is "Pay to win but you need a Prisoner as well - without him you are screwed".
And with the silly point system you are basically going one step forward two steps back.
Someone mentioned this in a previous post but I can't find it. For some reason there are some teams who have attacked me and are revengeable but when I go to revenge one, win and then return to the defense tab, beside the rest of those teams it says "can't revenge" even though I hadn't attacked them yet.
Btw: How is the Rainmaker after the nerf bat struck? Still usable? Any good for PvP?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypnos
Some thoughts I've had:
The randomness on who goes first is extremely aggravating. That's really how you win or lose a match. You may have a great team (and maybe I don't) but if you don't go first you're most likely going to lose so that's no real strategy.
This makes the lack of having certain characters even more depressing. I'm absolutely avoiding teams with the Prisoner or Red Troll. Why? Because I don't have those. I would much rather work for coins to guarantee myself a character like these and not to try for another useless soul that will not get me the characters I want.
There has to be a limit on how many times you get attacked per day. I can't play all the time but in what 2 days or so that's it's been available I've been attacked 120x already. Is that going to be normal?
Honestly, the only reason I will play PvP is to try to get the achievement awards and maybe get enough coins for a Legendary Soul (to be disappointed again) but honestly I think I'm going to continue the normal PvE grind more.
Don't give up just yet m8!
I was neeb for four days. Wrong creatures, wrong talismans. Give yourself few more days. Stack your ironite while you learn how to set up your team to withstand that first turn and does some crazy stuff you wouldn't think of in pvp. You'll need it next week.
If we deem that necessary we can do that... but we don't want to discourage people from investing in better defenses, so that PVP is merely about getting easy attack wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillLion
We're getting a wealth of data from having a substantially higher playerbase than the PVP Beta pool, and are looking at it to help determine how we will refine matchmaking, VP rules, etc.
This is bound to happen during the first week or two, but will eventually be a non-issue once people have relatively high point values (due to the weekly reset).Quote:
Originally Posted by BillLion
For revenging, you can only revenge a given individual twice a day, but you can also only do 20 revenge battles per day. You've hit your limit!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypnos
It may be that you need to rethink your character teams, and/or how you have assigned talismans. You need to build a team that can work when going first or second to maximize your chance of victory, which often necessitates more defensive play, and/or building more health talismans to improve general sustainability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodrigo-3281
If you want some tips from the developers, check out the new Talisman Packs in the store. You don't need to buy them if that's not your thing, but it shows you some possible sets of talismans that we've found work well if you want to have competitive characters in PVP. You'll notice that usually means having at least one health talisman, balancing secondary bonuses to Def/MR, using some more advanced sets to help build up combos, etc.
Hi Rodrigo,Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodrigo-3281
It will take a little bit of time to adjust to PVP. Sag made a great post with tips/thoughts for newcomers. Also, many considerations newer players are having we had during BETA. You might wanna check that thread too.
Having said that, maybe we did get too far ahead with skill shards and new toons during the BETA testing. I believe sacrifice is just around the corner to make up for that. The game has to make champions and skill shards more available for newer player to catch up.
Best
You're sticking with that spread from beta on weekly reset? I have nothing nice to say anymore on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB
Sorry I am for the general population. No rewards for you (us), ever. Few same ppl will thrive.
I give you the players this and next weeks reset to realize that the best of the best ppl need 400 pts for rewards while you need cca 1000+. And it is fair :p
Hey do you think you can link me that post Sag did? I could really use some help on PVP because I don't really know what kind of team to build currently or what talismans to use. I just use a SoL eddie, assassin corrupt rescuer, hellhound, and pharaoh dog for now because that's like my only strong trooops.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmac
Also I feel sorry for Rodrigo he got attacked 120x?!?!? I only had gotten attacked once ever since PVP started dang lol. I mean I am pretty low in the trophies only Acolyte II
I think is this one, I´ll try to link the arena as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by treeb0mbb
http://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/sh...-to-PvP-So-far
I think he's talking about A beginner's guide to PvP... So far. Definitely a great resource. EDIT: Gmac too fast for me!Quote:
Originally Posted by treeb0mbb
There's also plenty of other discussions in the PVP Discussion subforum that go over the many intricacies and people's opinions on PVP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmac
Alright thanks guys!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB
Great job Sparton... I was attacked 170 times in less then 40 hours, with only 40 revenges possible, and every single win giving me 12 points while broken def losing me at least 18. This is such a great system and such a refreshment from PvE grinding. I am also happy that I can only see 10 most recent attacks only and carefully pick my revenges from 29, which is sow many I had last two mornings. It really is possible to make some progress in Arena, with two refills a day you can be +1 point compared to yesterday. I also like how I can one-shot teams with Prisoner + Troll/hellhound etc, and how a guy with best team can get himself even more good chars from souls and equip that dudes right away with skillshards. Also, please don't listen to Billion and other players with their stupid advises, they are just moaners and whiners who want this game to die ASAP. Keep up the great work \m/
one real small but important improvment would be to add the rank and the current points to the names on the revenge screen.
so we can quickly see, who is a good pick to revenge. now i have 154 attacks and i have to search every time for the name
of the guy and think about if it's worth to revenge him. that's really annoying...
please check the refresh lists too, they are still broken, even there are so many new names, 40%-70% of the lists remains the same every time.
this has to be some sort of conflict.
EDIT:
And yes, please listen to Billion a little more he is a bright mind and has really good suggestions. :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringe666-7406
Yes, I am both stupid & bright! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
And worth listening to either way ;)
No, man! You are just the voice of most of us, stupid and bright players who still are not giving up on this dump game...Quote:
Originally Posted by BillLion
Sparton, I get that. But how do you recover from 80-100 attacks per day? Even if you have a decent offense (holds at 25% plus is good I think) then you still find yourself in decline or stuck at best. Did you guys anticipate this #of attacks on a player?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB
Attachment 2481
Edit: I'm working my defense and testing better options constantly, but that will only get us so far.
Sparton/Kaz,
Could you elaborate a bit on how the current AI works?
For instance, how they pick which power ability to use? Seems to me protective ones are chosen first.
Also, does their position on the line influence their actions? (Tried switching the order many times, seems random, but I´m not smart enough)
It would be great if we could have a say on their actions, either by their placement on the map or by just saying: "attack only mode" for this guy!
And as a suggestion, we could use more feedback about how people are attacking us, teams their using to attack and % win rate against players/champions. So we´d know what is giving us trouble. (I believe we are biased to set our defense based on how we attack because of the lack of info)
Best
My gess would be that skills have certain categories, like "buff","heal",aso.
Those are specified by the current state of your team: fury,power,HP,...
Although i have seen AI do such stupidities (yesterday a low on HP troll cast his shields instead of just attacking my "1 HP left" eddie,thanks for that win AI), which might prove my theory wrong.
And move order of the team seems to be completely random (also most of the time the worst possible one). So i don't think it matters in what order you place your characters...
And then we have those anomalies...where the AI takes over and an AGS blows down his own team while endured, or mummy eddie starts with a heal shield while noone on the team can do that, or MGS reviving and entering some strange "endless charging" move which forces you to force close the game (thanks for that loss AI) and a new one i noticed today: the red troll seems to regain a bit of his HP just before a killing blow (hard to describe... it looks like the CR fury glitch, but actually raises his HP bar from red to orange instead of killing him). So the AI decides...not Sparton or Kaz ;)
As if this writing, you're... rank 45.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringe666-7406
Better than thousands of players.
Looks like you're doing just fine.
Yeah, we can look into surfacing that information a bit more easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
This is something we're still looking into improving. The bigger playerbase has helped (at least for most people), but it looks like people at the top see this more often than not.Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
Oh yeah, I've been happy to digest his advice (and many others' constructive criticism, too). I just can't promise too much right now while we're still analyzing and making sure that PVP is performing as intended (that people can continue to climb during the week, people want the rank-based division rewards, and that there is competition to get into the rank-based divisions).Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
The short answer is people are continuing to climb despite that.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillLion
The long answer is we expected there to be more attacks and for the loss reduction based on divisions to mostly handle that so people can still be making progress getting higher VP from day to day. Despite attacks on some players outstripping what we expected, that seems to be working as intended, but if we see people end up stuttering around the division where the loss reduction drops off (Duelist II w/1700), then we know we'll have more work to do (either with tuning those values and/or doing other things to spread attacks around).
I wish I could with confidence, but there's definitely a lot of weird legacy code from the Roadhouse days which governs that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmac
Mizrael has it about right, in that moves are categorized and the AI tries to use them at seemingly smart times, but... they sometimes lack awareness with what the enemy's current state is (thus Mizrael's example about the dumb Warrior Troll), or awareness in how their "heal" skill or whatever works relative to other heal skills (thus low health Sentinel Allied Bomber Boy sometimes doing a poorly-timed heal).
We do want to be able to do something like that eventually, but the above issue of crazy legacy code makes that problematic to build off of. That said, there is someone in the office who's taking extra time out of his day to try and look at improving the general AI (to have better situational awareness), but I dunno when the fruits of his labour will make it into the game, or if we'll be able to make it so it can be "player-tuned".Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmac
We are looking into expanding on that information, but I don't have a timeline for it. We've spent a long time working on PVP, and while we know there's still improvements we want to do, we want to make sure we don't have such a large gap between releasing new features!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmac
Sparton, thanks for the LOL, intended or not. Been one of those days and that just made me laugh...Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan_LOTB
I gotta admit that I wasn't particularly thrilled with the idea of PVP. But after playing around with it for a couple of days, its been fun. It has really made me think about things in a different way.
I was wondering if we change a toons talisman load out in PVE, does that change the load out of that toon if it is locked into the PVP defense?
It is absolutely impossible to rank up when you are in the middle. Right now I am at rank 59 1672, the refresh list give me 10 options with 200 less points than me (6 refresh in a row). 10 guys between 1350 and 1450. If I decide to attack them I'll be winning 120 points, 12 per head. And then the 10 guys will revenge me they will take me 170 cause the 200 difference. If I'm lucky I'll hold 2 of them (cause you know I dont have a prisoner nor troll nor CG so my defense sucks) that gives me -17*8+12*2 equals to -136 in addition to that will be the 20 attacks from the attack list. So my question is why we cant have high ranks in the refresh list? or at least people with similar rating.
And why does the AI "auto draw" after like 100 rounds? i swear i was 1 round away from a win!!!(Thanks for that draw AI)
Thanks Gmac. I'll take a look at Sag's thread as well as the PvP forum to see more tips.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmac
I immediately noticed that my Golden Sons (Assassin and Warrior both maxed out) really don't stand a chance due to their low health (I really like their talisman setup for PvE). So I have a higher health team now and it does seem like I can make it out of the first wave attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB
I have some Toon options that I'm working on to give me that Def/MR bonus like the Sentinel Bomber Boy or Pyro Soldier. I keep seeing Mummy and GR Eddie on plenty of teams so maybe I'll look at them too.
As I was testing my defense, I removed the Prisoner and replaced him with an AoF. Because I was tired, last night when I attacked Schadenfreud I forgot to put my Prisoner back on the team. Oops ;). In any event, my Troll and Hellhound's passives didn't work because his team had the Siege passive, he went first, and I was stunned/taunted/frozen to death. I lost.
So yes, the Prisoner is important. That battle reminded me how much I depend on him. But - it also validated what I suspected before - lose the Prisoner and another toon will just take his place as "overpowered". In this case it was the Blue bat (or maybe Death Dog, can't remember which). Yes - the Prisoner is more powerful as he affects all passives, but Immunity and the Trolls shield are probably two of the most critical passives in the game and they are eliminated with Siege. Nerfing the Prisoner too much simply passes the buck.
wouldn't it be a solution to remove the points needed for claiming specific rewards? if solely the ranking would matter, there would be much more competition in total all over the list. i imagine a big firework on saturday with many refills all over the place.
i understand that you want to assure that people play a lot to "deserve" the rewards, but i assume that you would create much more action/competition when you simply make a rank based reward system. then the point system could stay as it is. the competition will make the people play, that should be more effective and it will bring the competition into every region of the list not only into the top 25 region.
now many people won't refill on saturday because they don't have the points needed for ther reward anyway. so why should they spend something?if yoz change it it would immidiatly push the number of refills and your income at the same time :)
Currently your Talisman load outs do not get saved until you leave the inventory screen, so unequipping and equipping talismans while in your inventory will not affect your defense team.Quote:
Originally Posted by RCarter
-Kaz
Kaz's comment is correct. That said, as far as features are concerned, it would change talisman assignment on that character for use in other features. Right now, talismans are tied to the character, not tied to a character in a team.Quote:
Originally Posted by RCarter
In general, you usually won't be revenged as much as you attack (because revenging is limited per day, and not everyone will revenge even if they have the option).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubajoa
That said, if you end up being stalled at this amount while spending all the energy you naturally regain even through to Saturday, then certainly we will have a problem, and we'll look at tuning to make it so players are not stalled at such a point so far before the rank-based divisions.
Right now manually refreshing gives you slightly easier opponents (and easier opponents will usually have lower scores). Perhaps it's too much lower in score, though, so that's something we can look at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ubajoa
Not having the top 25 able to get rewards for the top few divisions only happened early in the beta when the point system made it much harder for higher ranked people to climb, and when there were far fewer competitors. People are still climbing hard and fast (Jofer16 just came outta nowhere and bumped Nicko outta 1st). I would be surprised if at least the top 4 divisions weren't filled out by people with enough points by this Saturday, but it's definitely possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
Really good point Nicko I think just by reducing the amount of toons affected by the prisoner or blue bat (siege) let's say that instead of taking the immunity from all toons provide by hellhound take it away from 2 random toons instead of all them and then we'll have two toons protected by immunity or shields if you are using the troll, for Angel of fear get affected for a 50% chance of getting a extra turn i think that will be a good balance and to get to the top you don't necessarily need a prisoner all the guys taking the top spots have a prisonerQuote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
First of all. PVP is really fun. Thaks for putting it out with minimal update chaos.
I do think the good rewards are WAY too limited. Only top 25 are worthwhile and you're only going to get there if you have a maxed mummy eddie on defense, along with a prisoner and a troll (with ssd, cg, or an immunity dog most likely as a third). Im already hitting a wall where 8 out of 10 teams I see use those characters
Id say up the rewards for anybody in the top 100 to get at least a rare gunner assassim soul and give the top 25 guys a bunch of skillshards. They likely already own most good toons anyway and those rate souls arent worth much to them. Even a legendary soul will likely only get you a dupe.
Only rewarding 25 out of thousands of players seems very harsh.
Sid-2370
One more thing. Eliminate defense point losses and award a SOW for each one or two holds and watch everyone stop complaining
Sid-2370
Pvp is the most fun ive ever had in this game. But ofc, it has problems, why are all of my enemies lvl 90-100s?
Also, pretty sure that a COTD isnt supposed to get unlimited extra attacks and kill all of his team due to reflect shield...
Are revived characters supposed to bring back their first-turn passives with them? I fought a team with GRE and every time he revived his ally warrior Troll, the shields would be brought back. This was rather annoying to deal with and doesn't seem fair. I've also experienced revived AOFs activating their First Blood passive if they kill one of my allies, even though the enemy team clearly already experienced the death of one of its own, which SHOULD negate the AOF passive. :confused:
I'm glad you have had the touch of it so you see how that works against op combos :p siege is powerfull as hell, but those creatures gladly die and don't deal that much dmg or make you suffer 2 turns (could be made 1 turn and a chance of perfects, I don't know.) I don't mind unshielded prisoner too. He loves to die as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
But that combo red troll + prisoner/siege is tough and makes you wanna own one when not owning a prisoner/siege. That's why no passives arena would brought up skills and not passives, and a whole new teams would emerge (with a green robot and axis commander on top)
Sherlock to the rescue - let's try to find out why Jofer16 is up there:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB
- Lack of sleep - highly likely
- Tons of ironite - a must
- Something else I can't quite figure out - something toon - something OP
I had fights he stunned one of my toons every hit for another 2 turns - on top of making any passive useless. If a prisoner team with certain combos goes first - loss - if they go second you might stand a chance if your talismans trigger
How many in the top 25 have a Prisoner? How many in the top 10 have an OP combo.
Over night I have been attacked more than 40 times. My defense is getting more and more beaten as people learn - of course they do - they are not stupid. With my free SoW I was able to climb just above the points I left it last night - and got revenged straigth away loosing all progress and having 0 SoW left. I get attacked often from people with a Prisoner. If I would revenge them I have a 50:50 chance to win. So that would be risking sinking deeper.
Of course you get attacked more without a Prisoner as you are an easier target.
The chance to get a Prisoner is very very low. I normally end up just getting more Gunner Rockets. Damn they are useful and they have the only power that triggers beginning round 2. So you don't get an extra power point if you start. But a round 2 I normally don't see against Prisoner&Co. Taunt, Taunt, Stun, Stun, Stun - finished
But I figured it out now:
PvP = Prisoner vs Peasants
Yeah! Sometimes i feel like Sparton is playing a different game. Everything works perfectly fine in his world while i can't even make it over 1700 points. and i do play alot and i do win alot. But every morning im back at 1500pts. Making a statistic based on one guy who went berserk and spends all his time and ironite to get a gunner posessed rocket is just wrong...
Ha... I've been attacked six (6) times. In total. Since PvP rolled out. Sure, I'm not as active as some other players as I do have a real life to attend too, but still... In the Beta stage, I would get attacked a ton no matter my own activity. So you know, I'm happy :)
-350 points this morning. I hope you have a good nap western hemisphere :)
As I was getting ready for work I was thinking about what I've said and came up with a few cutthroats that go together.
1) Prisoners passive negates all passives, for your team as well. That would render red troll out of that combo.
2) Siege passive reduces duration of all effects, good and bad, on both teams by 1 each round.
So if you take those creatures, live with them.
And now you can start crying.
Haven't chimed in yet. Some thoughts on PvP, forgive me if I will surely repeat earlier points made.
Aesthetically, it looks great. Almost like an epic battle of the bands is going to take place. Or like something out of Brutal Legend. Runs pretty good on my device, too.
What is the point of tracking Defense? To fight lower ranked people for cheap easy points or to be reminded how many people kicked my ass while I couldn't do anything? It's almost impossible to Defend, short of super new players getting confused or you get lucky. I've got a few, but that's it. Manual playing with buffs is going to beat automated AI almost all the time when the powers are even passably equivalent. I might not mind so much except one loses ranking in Defense losses... it's sort of a, 'well, I'm not actively playing. Just write me a story and tell me how I did'. There's a weird helpless disconnect with it.
Hrm... Prisoner is kind of a big deal, isn't he? I've got him and I can't see myself ever not using him. I know he's a bit rare but he's quite the advantage. Unfortunately, he makes for a homogeneous strategy. You don't have to look hard to see long strings of the same obviously strong minions being used. Honestly, I would just disable Passives for this mode and save the trouble. Of course, if his passive were nerfed, he'd be relatively useless as he doesn't do a whole lot else notably.
There's a LOT of front loading strategies out there. Luck of the draw can make a good bit of difference, although I'm not sure anything could be done about that.
I understand rewards will be better later, correct? Right now... meh, it's hardly worth. Coin acquisition is low and the best rank prizes will be held for an obsessed few. I'm not honestly sure it's worth the time, alongside all the other grinding I need to do daily.
I enjoy that losing your team's Eddie does not end the match. That would have been so broken, ha ha.
All in all, it's a decent idea, but it lacks in diversity and reward for the effort. I hate to say it, but it's a little boring. At least PVE I can safely auto farm while watching something else.