No worries. Just watch me score 4000 points in the last 25 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmxiii
You're going down Jofer ;)
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No worries. Just watch me score 4000 points in the last 25 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmxiii
You're going down Jofer ;)
LOL,everybody showing up! Congrats Nicko!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
Go nicko cast him a pyroblast.
nerfing is really not the solution, I do not have a Prisoner, but he really is no issue. For me the issue is that I got attacked 133 times more than I actually attacked and that I have to spend so much Ironite just to catch up... If you count 14 points loss on average per attack, I lost 390 Ironites and 1892 points just on the imbalance... If I had been attacked like Nicko only 40% of my attacks then I lost > 4000 points... This is what makes me sick.
The nerfing seems to be an excuse to lead us to think that things are improving nut making sure we keep spending... It clearly isn't the answer and has people pissed off all over the forums...
Exactly, i don't have a prisoner and i am pretty sure that i will never get one with the current RNG even if i play for 10 years but nerfing is not the answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrice-1201
Instead i propose:
i) Remove revenge to balance the defence attacks, i did 10 attacks then i get attacked 5 times cause AI is trying to balance my attacks and then i get 10 revenges so it's 10-15
ii) OP a few common toons that most players have or are easy to get by adding new passives and improving their skills so there are more options to choose
iii) Fix the toss that decides who goes first
iv) Fix the f***ing point system, f.e. when i don't go first and end up loosing without playing at all because of taunt, stun, freeze it's not right to loose more points than what i gain at win
v) Remove the prioritisation to defence that leads the AI to proc everything for the defence team(void shield, stun, taunt, freeze, burn, multi attacks etc)
vi) Fix things that are broken or bugged, like talismans f.e., it helps in balance
I pretty much agree with all of that - nerfing (other than fixes to try to improve toons) is not the way forward. Bring in new toons that can help or like you did with talisman as I use immunity and it works just fine and is a great counter to almost everything except a fully sharded GRE - if it get the RNG it is game over for one toon and a few nails in the coffin of another...is he the current new OP toon?Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrice-1201
Nope.. i think i have 100% win rate (attacks) against GR teams no matter what the toons are, no matter the coin... i use viking eddie but i think any other maxed sentinel toon could do the trick.. he deals lots of damage but it s really fragile.Quote:
Originally Posted by scott-5496
Trust me when i say maxed Carriage Rider Eddie is waaaay harder to put down
Mummy taunt teams the worst match up for me (even with immunity talisman).. good to read is going to get nerfed :D
I’ve always been taught that you play the cards you’ve been dealt. Not the ones you wish you had, but the ones you’ve been dealt…and you play them to the best of your ability!
We’ve all been dealt certain characters as a result of our game play, our investment of time or even money. And once we’ve been dealt these characters, we’ve made decisions on selling them or further investing into them.
In my humble opinion, it’s incredibly demotivating that after the cards have been dealt and decisions around investments made, that someone can actually come and change the cards in my hand, ala nerfing. I do not care if they believe its justified via some “fairness” objective, the nerfing just makes me no longer want to play and invest in character development. That’s sad too since I’ve been essentially an everyday player since ~August of last year.
I believe the proper solution to the balance the Dev’s seek still lies in creation, not removal. Create new characters and talisman that require further investment. Introduce a character like St. Michael the Archangel who’s passive would remove the Prisoner’s passive. Don’t want to use an angel, call it the Prisoner’s Mother for all I care.
Sure, you tried a bit of this with the introduction of two new talismans. It may not have completely levelled the playing field, but the Immunity talis can help mitigate tauntfest. Now don’t just give up and swing the nerf bat, keep going and expand the meta further. If you want suggestions, we are a creative bunch, just solicit ideas from us. You’ll have more ideas than you’ll know what to do with if you ask.
Regressing all characters to a mean in order to achieve some sense of fairness is not a fruitful direction of the game. That is a road to nowhere. I recommend a different path…
P.S. I do not have a Prisoner, W. Troll, AoF or many other great characters. I hope to one day…but that hope will be lost if the nerf bat continues to swing.
Great Post.Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoop
I agree with everything you said. You just about summed up how a good deal of the playerbase likely feels regarding this.Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoop
ditto!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by ipoop
ditto!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by jofer16
Seconded, 100%. Great post!Quote:
Originally Posted by iPoop
I don't have a prisoner and don't use the heavy taunters on my defense, and in the beginning, I lost badly 90% of the time to prisoner teams.
I learned to cope and stack my attackers in a way that now brings me roughly to a 2/3 win rate against prisoners.
Figuring out how to do this for me is all the fun this game has to offer, and nerfing the hard characters is taking that away by solving this problem for me.
Please before nerfing a char, consider the evolution of battle results against teams that feature this character.
People adapt, either by changing tactics or evolving their own characters. Those who don't deserve to lose.
If anything, please improve the AI, which still does make some very obvious mistakes.
100% agree on these points too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silentknight
Nerf only if it make something better or where a toon is set up wrong for talisman or how it is scaling etc - don't nerf it because it is OP or whatever. Or if you do that then make shard moveable as that would lessen the pain....and a lot of us still do PVE too and why should we lose skills for that when what they are doing is for PVP (which not everyone wants to play)?
As they say, it truly is easier to destroy than create.......
Some great points in here and it seems more and more players are unhappy about the nerfs. I don't have a Prisoner and probably never will (no way am I wasting Trooper points on G/A Souls any more) but I disagree with nerfing him. As others have said be creative not destructive. The way things are going we will all be using the floating rifles. Don't get me started on the AoP either. I fully sharded that bastard about a month ago and he is now going to be as good as useless in the Arena :(
Also don't agree on nerfs, devs should create new characters to counter the ones we already have.
Nerfing characters and increasing power in some will make PVE really hard. Fortunately most of us already finished the game, but new players will be frustrated for it.
Yeah, that is the key thing - the devs are annoying folk by nerfing toons they have invested in and/or been lucky in getting from the souls - not the best way to go I don't think. Nerfs should only be used on toons that are not working as intended or are broken in some way....that sort of nerf makes sense and is logical and should not annoy anyone. If they want to keep nerfing then they need to make shards moveable in my opinion as that lessens the pain a little/lot depending on how many shard are on it....what people feel if the GRE was nerfed and they had wasted all those shards on one? Not pretty at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by PerthEddie
A lot of folk complain about taunt/freeze fest and I see that too but it can be countered, as can the Prisoner....but surely the freeze/taunt fests are OP compared to anything else if you have not got the toons to counter it? Do they not also proc more than stuff like energy talisman/paralysis/invisibility/thieve etc etc? Surely they should be similar too...or maybe not! Who really knows?
I am sittin on 32 skillshards and the original plan was to max the Reaper with 28. But since I read he is being watched for OPnes I just don't want to spend them at all - on anything.
I don't have a Prisoner and are kind of OK that he gets a nerf (because of the massive advantage on the offense) but now he will be simply destroyed. There were so many good suggestions (i.e. Prisoner disables all passives - friend and foe) and so on. I would be so pissed off if I had one and out shards on him.
Also: why a 2nd nerf to the AoF? I don't have one as well but never had a problem with him (a few odd times tbh - but that's part of the game).
With all this nerfs of "no touching" first round and so on - I can only see the defense rates dropping and with the silly point system it gets even more frustrating loosing points because the AI does not deserve that name.
Thing is that now I play PvP only with my free SoW to get coins for shards (that I don't want to waste) and souls. As long as this AI destroys all the points I win again I am not really into a competition.
It's a shame, to see so many members dissatisfied with what they are going to do in this next tunning and to know that we will not be heard.
I imagine the frustration of those who have achieved some of these characters after the sacrifice and have invented a lot in Skill Shards or even invested in old characters like Mummy Eddie.
Since the CG nerf, now AoP, AoF and Prisioner. The funniest of all was the Death Dog, with the same passive AoP, will change the name but it will not have the same effect of AoP, because? Because he is not an ordinary character.
Each tunning an unpleasant surprise, instead of creating, they remove .. this pathetic that.
I'm copying a post I put in the PvP thread - but I know the developers read this one and am reposting it here.
I DO think the Prisoner needs a nerf and I have one. And I think some of the criticisms about him not helping win percentage are unfounded - ex Slauki has a 94% win percentage - because he carefully cherry picks teams. Others like Silent Knight don't - he's tenacious and will attack me multiple times until he wins - so assuming he does this with others, naturally his win percentage will be lower even with a Prisoner if he doesn't shy away from problem teams. Apples to Oranges here.
But the proposed change isn't a nerf - Silent Knight said it best - it's a castration
Anyway - after playing this since beta - I think the biggest impediment to a fun experience for most at this point is the point system. It would likely be dirt simple to change in the code and have a huge impact on everyone's experience. Why not simply reward defensive Holds but not penalize the losses? Or a light penalty of 2 points? A carrot instead of a stick.
Sparton - I know you said there are no plans to change the point system because you want to emphasize the importance of defense. But honestly, changes in defensive percentages don't offer proportionate rewards. And the effect of losses are really frustrating a lot of players.
Anyway - here's the repost...
A few of us like Rcarter and I have seen dramatically decreased attacks - and many haven't. And I agree with what RCarter said - what a huge difference it makes as you go through the week.
As some have pointed out, there seems to be a fairly despondent untertone in this weeks thread. It's unfortunate. And honestly - a Prisoner nerf won't help. It's not the real issue.
While I've focused on it in the last few threads, I don't even think # of times attacked is the real issue. It's the most pertinent defense metric to determine ones success in the current environment (as evidenced in previous weeks by players with mediocre stats making top twenty five) but not the underlying issue.
It really needs to be addressed at the root - the point system.
People will work if they believe they'll make progress. If they perceive their return on their investment of resources - time, Ironite - is fair. But if it's "two steps forward/three steps back"? Ultimately frustration will prevail. And we're starting to see more and more of it.
There are those uber-competitive among us who will suck it up - curse - and then still play a lot in the current environment. But my sense is the more typical player will simply get frustrated - say PvP is not fun anymore - and quietly walk away. And even the Uber-competitive have their limits...
I think ultimately this will need to be addressed. Personally, I think eliminating or greatly reducing the repercussions from having ones defense broken would have increased overall satisfaction significantly more than a massive Prisoner nerf.
A light Prisoner nerf and a restructuring of the point system ( as opposed to a massive Prisoner nerf in the current unfair point system) would - in my opinion - really improve the morale of the player base and help a lot of these negative undertones resolve (some will remain as there will always be complainers).
No update has happened yet. I hope the developers consider the above before any changes are made.
And honestly - the suggestion about simply banning him from PvP and leaving him "as is" may not be a bad idea...
Maybe keeping the idea of his passive being a buff but on 100% if opponents, he'd at least keep his revelence in PvE while still being counterable in the PvP, half of that nerf may be a decent solution to keep some 5* worth, but again those are just my 2 cents..Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
Yeah the fact he's destroyed in PvE is annoying. He's a staple in my teams and don't feel like dealing with LoL without him, too much time and boring self resses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
This quote from Thanos awesome post earlier is my main objection with these nerfs:
"P.S. I do not have a Prisoner, W. Troll, AoF or many other great characters. I hope to one day…but that hope will be lost if the nerf bat continues to swing."
If the fun characters are nerfed this game gets real boring real fast, if the gameplay is slowed down by making all characters boring and "fair" it takes the excitement out of chasing the top meta. Changing the meta by gutting what's fun and not adding new OP meta is bass ackwards. I know if battles essentially become a boring coin flip I'll be out. Most of the fun is chasing and using characters like The Prisoner. I feel bad for people like Shaolin who obviously wanted one forever only to have it obliterated after he recently got him.
I'm not in the "participation medal" camp when it comes to competition. The direction this game is taking makes me believe whoevers making the final decisions is.
Leave the Prisoner out of the PvP, ok.
Nerfing him, let people be more creative and make PvP a place for more combos and chars combinations, ok.
Is he really important in PvE like you guys are talking about?
I don't have him and Im managed to auto-play everthing with a fast 100% victory chance, even LoL. I really want to understand where is he so important in PvE. Tested some troopers Prisoners and the timming was the same.
So by your own definition, the nerf is unjustified if he's easily replaceable. Some people just like using our favorite characters. I didn't jump on the bandwagon after he became OP in arena, he's always been my dude from day one, he simply makes the game more enjoyable for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by HomemLivre
Like others have said it just kills any motivation to invest in characters. I too want to max out GRE but no way now with all the talk of OP. Changing the meta by subtraction and not addition is just a bad trend/direction to take. I've already had this with other favorite characters (corrupt general, etc) and it's getting old.
Still, in PvE he have his use, building "compensation" team to workaround especially while having him fully built is awful.. The set Nerf target at castrating him more than leveling him... Hence my comment, ant those of everyone, there got to be a way of balancing things without simply draining all mights out of a toon...Quote:
Originally Posted by HomemLivre
Making him counterable is one thing, reducing by half his only useful power on top of that just nullify him... Can already see PvE progressing players be like, wait, was that really a boss?
Hi guys,
Hate me but I'm in favor of The Prisoner nerf.
That passive is too powerful and has no counter. Only one toon in the game with it. That should never been allowed in PvP.
Many other toons have been nerfed before, and we had to adapt, Prisoner owners will do that now.
Remove him from Arena would be ok too, or change it to siege (or something) in Arena.
Not sure make a debuff on everybody would work, as it would still block every other passive in the game first round. Yeah, could cleanse, but that would force Mummy/Visions/Buzz on every defense. (And hope AI would be smart enough to use it). Not to mention if we do cleanse, will that make the passive come back? (don't know how that will work).
About nerfing the real problem for me is the skill shard issue. We should be able to move them around every new patch, major update, nerf etc
I look forward to this update, and also new talismans from BNW, hope we see new compositions at Arena.
But really hope matchmaking and self attack problems are fixed first, that is killing the game for me at the moment.
Cheers
Gmac
Seriously.. I think everyone around have already a set on immunity talismans around to keep key toons runing... No need to cleanse if it just doesn't happen.. hence the "counterability" point... Not used to be the case, now it will no matter how many toons it affects..Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmac
Otherwise any PvE use would rely too much on RNG & he'll be a "false positive" red eye for a nice to have but never used super rare toon..
Hey man,Quote:
Originally Posted by Sag7272
I really wish Prisoner owners would still be able to use The Prisoner as he is on PvE... btw AoP owners as well! For example, no easy way pass the w troll for us after the update.
Once siege stops working first round things will be leveled on offense (everybody can use new talismans). But killing every passive first round would still be a great advantage both offense and defense, debuff or not. (for instance, dealing with troll shields)
Us including me ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmac
I understand your point & I'm somewhat happy to retrieve the "mandatory prisoner spot" from my defense but don't want him nullified either, AoP will work pass first turn, start a HH with a Droid or a red pyro & forget about prisoners in this version no matter his chances of kicking in can be..
Main point was he wasn't counterable... Is he OP once a counter exist, definitely no, rest of that nerf just bury him in a flood of common toons as easily countered & even when working, he likely won't be of any use unless extremely lucky.. I can live without him or my AoP but it's way too much... He's directly heading to be benched & should had kept some use..
Thanks for your replys, mates.
Im ok with let him PvE like he is.. he will be like Thief talis that steal 18 fury on PvP and 30 on PvE, Im ok with it.
But he really deserves a nerf in PvP, and IMO hes going to be balanced. Like him, CG is a super rare toon to and he was nerfed to hell, but he still usefull in the arena. I cant imagine how ridiculous he would be with the original 55% stun chance lol (the damage nerf was too much for me, he deserves a damage buff asap).
The Prisoner (just like the point system) is killing the arena, dont get me wrong, but Im tired to see the same teams everywhere just couse we cant change chars becouse of this OP passive. He is the only toon that simply be part of EVERY single team (at least fot the ones who have him) since the BETA... please, lets be creative.
If you think outside the box he will still be usefull, just need to combo with dif chars and talis.
I want to be able to test new combos, and I hope that this new patch brings the REAL balance that most of us deserve in the arena.
Sag, you're a nerf magnet! Every toon you own gets the hammer!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sag7272
I suggested they changed his passive to siege, would still be useful, let's not forget chance to stun 2 rounds with basic attack.
A passive that blocks all other passives... I mean... for PvP, that should never happened in the first place imo.
I still don't understand why stopping passives is a big deal to nerf, but then he's the only one on my team that has a passive, but I do go against troll and Angel teams so I guess he's needed, but I've never had problems against other Prisoner teams since all he's good for is taking hits and blocking passives.
You are right, I know :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmac
Legitimately afraid one out of two who aren't be the next (GRE)... At that point it's funnier to take it as a joke...
:)
Quote:
Originally Posted by BonFire
Well, many combinations, offense and defense wise, are not possible simple because the prisoner stands there.
For instance
DM and A Pyro, W Troll useless.
Accuracy up, attack up, magic up would be used more often (I think) if they were also not blocked.
And many more I'm sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BonFire
And by using him with an AoP you can nullify any talismans+passives & overuse CC..Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmac
I need to get me an Angel of Pain before that patch then. That sounds fun. Should've never deleted him before PVP came out. Looked too stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sag7272
He sounds good in theory but if you use him with Prisoner you're sacrifing a ton because running into a Prisoner makes him kinda worthless. I toyed with the idea of using that combo but it was considerably weaker than my usual teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonFire
Why the prisoner is very powerfull now? Because some passives are too much powerfull, especialy siege (who destroy all your strategy based on beneficial effects/talismants) and the troll's magma shield (who burn 50% of hp of all your team) ... This is why i use the prisoner, just for counter the blue bat and the troll, any problems with other characters!
In the future update blue bat and troll will be nerf in the same time so it will not really a problem to no more use the prisoner...
Another problem with the prisoner can be that he has no counter... just let his passive works for 100% of opponents but set it as beneficial effect (can be counter with immunity) that will balance his OPness and don't totally castrate him as i've read here :)
And why not the same thing for siege and all the other passives? Please let us the option to counter them with immunity instead of nerfing all the premium characters in the game...
Oh okay. From my stand point, I almost never run into other Prisoner's, but when I do, I make sure mine's the free man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jofer16