Suspect Discussion: Prisoner

What It was Designed For
A character which supports his team by locking down enemy passives (with his passive) and abilities (by sealing/stunning).

What We Got
A character which defines the top-end PVP meta so much that he counters nearly every defensive strategy you can set up without taking a turn… and largely cannot be countered (as having a Prisoner sort of levels the playing field, but that doesn’t stop him from doing what he does).

Why This is a Problem

• Almost every interesting team composition choice that uses passives to help weather the first turn is nullified, reducing counterplay options
• Because the first turn or two are so critical (with many matches with 5 star characters only lasting 1-3 rounds), disabling all enemy first turn passive is disproportionately powerful

What We Could Consider Changing

• Make it so his passive applies a block passive status effect to a random enemy each round (reduce amount of impact)
• Make it so his passive doesn’t work on the first turn (reducing the scope of what he counters)
• Make it so his passive works on only certain passives (such as passives which aren’t first turn effects)
• Make it so his passive can still affect all enemies each turn, but only has a chance to per enemy (retaining his value most of the time while not being a sure thing each turn)
• Introduce talismans which have set effects that provide Damage Reduction Shields, Immunity, etc (giving non-passive options to survive the initial onslaught)

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Please let us know your thoughts on this character in the comments. Keep in mind that this is not a for sure set of changes we’re going to do to this character; this is merely where our appraisal design-side is of the character, and we want to discuss this more with the community to get a better sense if changes are necessary for this character or if this character is fine as is.

I'd personally vote for a tallisman set option, as it can make the matchup less predictable and prevent nerfing a character that isn't much more than what would be nerfed rendering him somewhat useless in PvE ...

A tallisman set have also the advantages of giving passive abilities to a whole new set of characters opening more diversity than a straight prisoner nerf would...

I pretty much gave a few ideas in another thread. Glad that you devs are considering possible solutions:

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1. Nerf prisoner's passive: "75% to disable one passive, 50% to disable 2 passives and 15% to disable all passives" or something along those lines.
2. Introduce more characters with the same or counter passive as prisoner
3. Introduce a new set of talismans, one that will grant the wearer "immunity to his passive", for example if gunner golden sons wear this sets of talismans his passive cannot be disabled by prisoner's one. I think this will be a great counter to prisoner's
4. Make a PvP rare "special reward" that grants the player first turn in any given match

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Originally Posted by Sag7272

I'd personally vote for a tallisman set option, as it can make the matchup less predictable and prevent nerfing a character that isn't much more than what would be nerfed rendering him somewhat useless in PvE ...

A tallisman set have also the advantages of giving passive abilities to a whole new set of characters opening more diversity than a straight prisoner nerf would...

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I do agree with Sag, new talisman set s gonna be a further inspiration also for new toons with new abilities and also a revaluation of old toons. Very good thread, Sparton.

My question is:
Is pvp so nice to justify all the nerf that is spreading to many chars ?
I'm not included in the pvp beta test, so I don't know if it's worth....
Pvp influences campaign gameplay causing disadvantages, and I'm seeing only that.
What are the advantages of pvp that can improve the campaign mode ?

A character i fell in love with already in my noob days in the campaign story, first play through (i didn't even know that he would be a powerful playable character)
Haven't seen him drop in a single soul i ever opened...sadly

On topic:
My vote too goes to the talismans. the prisoner plays also an important role in the PvE and any nerfing would turn him into a mediocre character, just not worth the slot.
considering his rarity, he should feel OP,same as other 5* characters i have never seen (CG,viking, tailgunner,pharaoh,aso).

Nerfing is bad for those that invested skill shard on a toon (I don't have the Prisoner by the way). Talismans seems the best option among the proposed solution.
And a way to evolve talismans quickly (BNW) would be appreciated

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Originally Posted by angelkelly

I don't think adding new talisman sets to the game will solve anything for pvp seeing that they can only be trigger on perfect attacks. Which we all know auto almost never hit perfect attacks without manually playing yourself.

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There are already some chars in the game like Desert Marauder or Assassin pyro soldier, who got a perfect hit passivity, so they have a chance to trigger talisman effect. Furthermore they are dropped both at 4* so isn't so impossible get them from bos.

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Originally Posted by Shaolin85london

There are already some chars in the game like Desert Marauder or Assassin pyro soldier, who got a perfect hit passivity, so they have a chance to trigger talisman effect. Furthermore they are dropped both at 4* so isn't so impossible get them from bos.

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I don't think I've ever seen an Assassin Pyro. You have one?

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Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB

What We Could Consider Changing

• Make it so his passive applies a block passive status effect to a random enemy each round (reduce amount of impact)
• Make it so his passive doesn’t work on the first turn (reducing the scope of what he counters)
• Make it so his passive works on only certain passives (such as passives which aren’t first turn effects)
• Make it so his passive can still affect all enemies each turn, but only has a chance to per enemy (retaining his value most of the time while not being a sure thing each turn)
• Introduce talismans which have set effects that provide Damage Reduction Shields, Immunity, etc (giving non-passive options to survive the initial onslaught)

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Make it so his passive applies a block passive status effect to a random enemy each round (reduce amount of impact)

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Make it so his passive can still affect all enemies each turn, but only has a chance to per enemy (retaining his value most of the time while not being a sure thing each turn)

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One of the above are the only options imo. Which is better is to be discussed, both have + and - .

A passive that's not working on the first turn is a bad idea imo,since most of them are first turn based anyway (moaning from prisoner owners).....working only against certain passives not appealing also (which to include and which not? - incoming moaning)....introducing talismans? why should I be forced to equip most of my team's chars with those to face a certain OP char? (no thx - my own moaning here).

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Originally Posted by invictus

I don't think I've ever seen an Assassin Pyro. You have one?

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Yes I got one and he does same passivity work as well as marauder does, but presently the second one passive is overpowered due a bug that it's already been detected and ll fix in a future update, I guess

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Originally Posted by angelkelly

I don't think adding new talisman sets to the game will solve anything for pvp seeing that they can only be trigger on perfect attacks. Which we all know auto almost never hit perfect attacks without manually playing yourself. So my option would be to only have his passive work on 1 enemy per round. And as for angel of fear which is not mention. I think his passive should also be changed to giving 2 members on his team a extra turn instead of all.

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If the new sets where to act as a passive unaffected by prisoner ability anyone could "immune" self from him, no nerf needed for ANY character this way as you could build yourself passives out of talismans as a solution if you don't have right characters..

i appreciate the discussion and the in depth analysis regarding the problems he cause:

i have one additional counter idea for the prisoner:

what if "immunity" save us also from prisoners passive? so he cannot remove our passive if immunity is on.

he would have his natural counter and there are some chars which have an immunity passive or who can give the party immunity. that sounds good to me since it would give us more room for tactical maneuver. the game would gain some tactical depth too.

and yeah i agree with aristo, why should we be forced to equip our team with specific talismans only to counter a OP char?
but i could also live with that solution although i wouldn't love it.

i would opt for the seal one passive option or something similar. But the problem is, that very few chacters have passives, so if he seals more the one
nothing would change since there are maximal 3 passives available per match.

but my favourite solution is immunity > passive agression :P

ps: many more thoughts, but the broken machanic thread contain all relevant information so no need to get repetitive...


Edit:

point 3: also sounds okay, that he blocks all not first turn passioves like aof extra turn, block and revive. so we could survive the first round without beeing frozen or dead.
btw: what about if prisoner removes all passives, also the passives of the own team? we had that suggestion in the other thred, sounds also okay for me.

Man, we got a handful of off topic comments faster than I thought it would.

Please keep the discussion on topic (ie specifically relating to the Prisoner/dealing with him/why he shouldn't be nerfed/etc). I'll be deleting any comments/sections of comments which are off topic without prejudice. EDIT: Actually, maybe it wasn't that bad; tangential discussions relating to countering the Prisoner is OK, I guess.

Also, even if I don't respond to many of the comments and suggestions, we're reading everything that's coming in. Definitely some interesting suggestions we hadn't thought of.

Just imagine how unuseful he would become in PvE with a one sealed passive or something...
In lightbrigner deactivating one troll can't even imagine how unuseful in LoL with only one or two passive sealed? Sound like he'll be collecting dust and become a false joy to get one like a green pyro...

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Originally Posted by Shaolin85london

There are already some chars in the game like Desert Marauder or Assassin pyro soldier, who got a perfect hit passivity, so they have a chance to trigger talisman effect. Furthermore they are dropped both at 4* so isn't so impossible get them from bos.

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Originally Posted by angelkelly

I don't think adding new talisman sets to the game will solve anything for pvp seeing that they can only be trigger on perfect attacks. Which we all know auto almost never hit perfect attacks without manually playing yourself. So my option would be to only have his passive work on 1 enemy per round. And as for angel of fear which is not mention. I think his passive should also be changed to giving 2 members on his team a extra turn instead of all.

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Just to be clear, the new Talismans we will be introducing allow characters to have an Immunity, Shield, Counterattack, etc. buff for 1 turn at the start of battle (they can be stacked to extend the duration). These Talisman Passive effects cannot be disabled by the Prisoner or other passives.

-Kaz

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Originally Posted by Sag7272

Just imagine how unuseful he would become in PvE with a one sealed passive or something...
In lightbrigner deactivating one troll can't even imagine how unuseful in LoL with only one or two passive sealed? Sound like he'll be collecting dust and become a false joy to get one like a green pyro...

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hmm i don't thinkt PVE is so important, as i stated in the other thread i feel PVP is the future. But yeah he wouldn't help you in the troll levels anymore, that's right.

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Originally Posted by Kaz_LOTB

Just to be clear, the new Talismans we will be introducing allow characters to have an Immunity, Shield, Counterattack, etc. buff for 1 turn at the start of battle (they can be stacked to extend the duration). These Talisman Passive effects cannot be disabled by the Prisoner or other passives.

-Kaz

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actually i thought about the talisman solution:

maybe it's not that bad, since it would also give us plenty of new options not only against the prisoner, also for the game in total. would give us more tactical opportunities.

so maybe the solution is better than i thought at the first glance. but it could change the whole game dynamic, depending on what talismans you are planning to introduce. if you don't do it carefully, you could create plenty of more options to make ridiculous OP tactics possible. some tactics, we cannot even imagine now...
so it would be dangerous to change the whole dynamic, only to counter a single character....

boy, I don't want to be in your skin now devs. This is a really hard one. Well, let me consider a bit:

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Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB

Make it so his passive applies a block passive status effect to a random enemy each round (reduce amount of impact)

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I don't think this one is a good idea. Could introduce more bugs, for example block a passive on an Eddie (does not have passives) instead of a Troll. Also this would de-characterize Prisoner.

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Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB

Make it so his passive doesn’t work on the first turn (reducing the scope of what he counters)

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This also no good. Since the first turn is so powerfull if you disable it in the first turn this would destroy him for teams that don't go first. We would have the same problem in the end, but this time Prisoner would be very very underwelming.

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Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB

Make it so his passive works on only certain passives (such as passives which aren’t first turn effects)

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This would also create a lot of bugs. Besides it is the same as removing Prisoner passive. He is there for this reason, and disablinf only for the first turn could be disastrous for the team if it goes second.

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Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB

Make it so his passive can still affect all enemies each turn, but only has a chance to per enemy (retaining his value most of the time while not being a sure thing each turn)

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This is one of the best solutions so far, althought I think the last one is better (see below). If well done this could make him viable in both defense and offense, introducing RNG that is something cool about this game and its PvP: you never know what will happen next.

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Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB

Introduce talismans which have set effects that provide Damage Reduction Shields, Immunity, etc (giving non-passive options to survive the initial onslaught)

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IMHO this would be a really good solution, because could make even more toons viable in PvP. Right now for example no one uses PSS: he's squishy, easily countered, not great damage, just heal for utility, hard to land his debuff. But, if we change for example Explosive talisman so that it gives explosive shield to all allies every turn, returning damage? Or Magus CotD with a Cyclone talisman that gives cyclone shield to all allies and freeze enemies at the end of turn?

This has a really large potential to be a game changer in PvP. And the good is: counters Prisoner and Blue Bat and Death Dog. The only con is that we'll have to farm and level a whole new set of talismans, especially because they might be 3 set, so it mighjt take some time to see them shine.

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Originally Posted by Sag7272

Just imagine how unuseful he would become in PvE with a one sealed passive or something...
In lightbrigner deactivating one troll can't even imagine how unuseful in LoL with only one or two passive sealed? Sound like he'll be collecting dust and become a false joy to get one like a green pyro...

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He will still be useful deactivating 2/4 trolls out there....think of people with no CR and no prisoner who fight them with their passives on for months ;)

Make it so he drops instead of Corrupt Ox Cultists, that way everyone will get one
If everyone has it no issue lol :p

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Originally Posted by slauki

so maybe the solution is better than i thought at the first glance. but it could change the whole game dynamic, depending on what talismans you are planning to introduce. if you don't do it carefully, you could create plenty of more options to make ridiculous OP tactics possible. some tactics, we cannot even imagine now...
so it would be dangerous to change the whole dynamic, only to counter a single character....

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We've had PvP focused Talismans planned for a while now. It just so happens that a few of them would help add some counterplay to characters like the Prisoner.

Also, the buffs generated by the Talisman Passives are still just buffs and can be stolen, stripped, etc. by other character abilities, so we're less worried that they will create a new problem as there are already plenty of existing counters to them.

-Kaz

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Originally Posted by Kaz_LOTB

We've had PvP focused Talismans planned for a while now. It just so happens that a few of them would help add some counterplay to characters like the Prisoner.

Also, the buffs generated by the Talisman Passives are still just buffs and can be stolen, stripped, etc. by other character abilities, so we're less worried that they will create a new problem as there are already plenty of existing counters to them.

-Kaz

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Really interesting...
Could open so many possibilities 😊

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Originally Posted by slauki

i appreciate the discussion and the in depth analysis regarding the problems he cause:

i have one additional counter idea for the prisoner:

what if "immunity" save us also from prisoners passive? so he cannot remove our passive if immunity is on.

he would have his natural counter and there are some chars which have an immunity passive or who can give the party immunity. that sounds good to me since it would give us more room for tactical maneuver. the game would gain some tactical depth too.

and yeah i agree with aristo, why should we be forced to equip our team with specific talismans only to counter a OP char?
but i could also live with that solution although i wouldn't love it.

i would opt for the seal one passive option or something similar. But the problem is, that very few chacters have passives, so if he seals more the one
nothing would change since there are maximal 3 passives available per match.

but my favourite solution is immunity > passive agression :P

ps: many more thoughts, but the broken machanic thread contain all relevant information so no need to get repetitive...


Edit:

point 3: also sounds okay, that he blocks all not first turn passioves like aof extra turn, block and revive. so we could survive the first round without beeing frozen or dead.
btw: what about if prisoner removes all passives, also the passives of the own team? we had that suggestion in the other thred, sounds also okay for me.

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Lately we are disagreeing alot my dear dutch friend!!

I believe that your "immunity passive" solution, will filled PVP with Angel Of Pain/Death Dogs + Artillery Dogs+Hellhound teams, and thats looks not that cool to me, since every team would have 2 of the mentioned chars + Mummy......
Cancel passives starting on second turn, just will make him useless on campaign or LOL Dungeon...
The option of 100% block one random enemy passive, 75% 2 enemies, 50%3 and so on sounds more likely to me...(% to be defined anyway)
The talisman solution will break actual builds on any character.

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Originally Posted by slauki

i appreciate the discussion and the in depth analysis regarding the problems he cause:

i have one additional counter idea for the prisoner:

what if "immunity" save us also from prisoners passive? so he cannot remove our passive if immunity is on.

he would have his natural counter and there are some chars which have an immunity passive or who can give the party immunity. that sounds good to me since it would give us more room for tactical maneuver. the game would gain some tactical depth too.

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I like this idea a lot. Not loving the talismans idea because very much.

I think the talismans sound pretty interesting. What happens when you put a blue bat in there though?

The prisoner by himself isn't a problem in my opinion. It's the way he can be combined with others that causes the issues. Changing him might not be the best fix. Maybe looking at some of those other characters would solve the problem better.

I don't have a prisoner by the way.

I do not like the idea of talismans that will be able to counter because that will take WAY too long. We're talking about an entire set of new talismans that need to be created and tested for bugs. Honestly no offense intended, but with the track record of the game this will set back the release of PVP, BNW, Night City, and most importantly sacrifice by many months. This is a needlessly complicated solution for a simple problem. The prisoner's passive should just have a chance of randomly blocking passives each round. This still makes him very useful but you won't automatically put him on any team and it solves the first round problem. You guys can still create awesome new talismans, but do it after you release all of the other promised content.

Why not just ban the Prisoner from PvP?

Seems a whole lot easier. And won't wreck him for other aspects of the game.

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Originally Posted by RCarter

Why not just ban the Prisoner from PvP?

Seems a whole lot easier. And won't wreck him for other aspects of the game.

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Now here's an idea that makes sense. Either this or make him drop like stupid corrupt ox cultists.

Here is a crazy one.

For PVE, no change to skills.

For PVP, he blocks all enemy passives every round, and his own passives for the first round only. Thus any 2 round passive on his side will kick in on round 2 for one round only. Kinda like having a blue bat against him. Thus the only change would be that no passives are active round one. Even better would be if this was only when the prisoner gets first attack...no passives. If the prisoner team goes second, prisoner toon passives are active.

So if prisoner team goes first no other passive are active when his team attacks. His passive activate prior to the other teams first attack. So he will get the benefit of defensive passive during first round.
If prisoner team goes second, then any passives on prisoner team are live/working.

Not sure if this is possible, but would keep his value in campaign untouched, but slightly modify his skill in PVP.

This would prevent the tag team passive of the perfects freezing, killing on the first rounds without ever getting a move.

If we get talismans that block him, it takes away from his uniqueness/value, IMHO.

It's late, might be stretching it.

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Originally Posted by MrFreeze

I think the talismans sound pretty interesting. What happens when you put a blue bat in there though?

The prisoner by himself isn't a problem in my opinion. It's the way he can be combined with others that causes the issues. Changing him might not be the best fix. Maybe looking at some of those other characters would solve the problem better.

I don't have a prisoner by the way.

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Agreed

It's what I said in another thread. Nerf him, remove him, make him subject to immunity, etc and the blue bat with the Siege passive is then the next "overpowered" character...except he's not hard to get

With percentage chance to effect passives this brings up a couple of questions
Would he effect opponents prisoner ?
Would you take into account opponents toons that have no passive like CG and AGS ?

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Originally Posted by Nicko

Agreed

It's what I said in another thread. Nerf him, remove him, make him subject to immunity, etc and the blue bat with the Siege passive is then the next "overpowered" character...except he's not hard to get

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Would he really be? I think with the bug fix on multiple hits and freeze procs he'll be very balanced. Besides PDK and other cleanse toons counter him very good.

I think Prisoner should be banned from PVP. Why?
1. All theories about making his passive not work with certain toons, only one toon at first round or whatever % for the following rounds, is changing the purpose of the Prisoner and will make a lot of people angry for not being able of using him as intended in first place in PVE.
2. About talismans, we all have put what we considere the best talismans for our toons, and now we have to change that because of one toon, no an option.
3. Whatever change devs decide will take sometime to be applied. And both options mentioned above will take a lot of time. I think devs should concentrate on what they offered long time ago, sacrifice or BNW.

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Originally Posted by Frost

Would he really be? I think with the bug fix on multiple hits and freeze procs he'll be very balanced. Besides PDK and other cleanse toons counter him very good.

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I don't see how Cleanse would help - I'm not talking about removing negative effects.

I'm saying Siege neuters passives similar to a Prisoner. Kills Troll shields etc. Nerf the Prisoner and all you're doing is giving a much more common character - the Angel of Pain - the ability to do what the Prisoner is doing now

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Originally Posted by R1ck

2. About talismans, we all have put what we considere the best talismans for our toons, and now we have to change that because of one toon, no an option.

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Well, since it sounds like new talismans have been planned for a while (before the PVP Beta?), and those may offer ways to counter the passive, it's probably just best to wait and see what will come of it and then decide if more needs to be done to the Prisoner (I'm guessing not). I don't think it's very reasonable to rule out new talisman sets because we already have the ones we want, that would make the game stagnant. Although I do understand the concern of creating a new set of talismans just to solve this problem, as it could be buggy, take a a long time, and possibly upset other balances. But if it's happening anyway, let's see what they do.

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Originally Posted by Nicko

I don't see how Cleanse would help - I'm not talking about removing negative effects.

I'm saying Siege neuters passives similar to a Prisoner. Kills Troll shields etc. Nerf the Prisoner and all you're doing is giving a much more common character - the Angel of Pain - the ability to do what the Prisoner is doing now

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I think what they mean is that Cleanse is a counter-counter to Siege blocking immunity passives - that is, blue bat blocks your Hellhound's 1st turn immunity, and you wind up getting frozen, but PDK automatically cleanses a random ally. It's not a 1:1 counter, but I think there are more small counters like that that makes Siege not nearly as OP as Passive Aggression. Particularly because Siege doesn't block all passives, so it's only useful against a handful of toons (not everyone with a passive, like the Prisoner).

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Originally Posted by Nicko

I don't see how Cleanse would help - I'm not talking about removing negative effects.

I'm saying Siege neuters passives similar to a Prisoner. Kills Troll shields etc. Nerf the Prisoner and all you're doing is giving a much more common character - the Angel of Pain - the ability to do what the Prisoner is doing now

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Nicki you are wrong here. The way Siege and Passive Aggression work is way different.

Passive Aggression disables all passives. Siege reduce the duration of buffs by one per round.

Siege for example does not disables Cleanse, so evento ir your team is frozen in your turn at least one toon will bem cleansed so you can counter the enemy team. My winrate against blue bat and death dog going second is 90℅. I used to hate having a couple PDK, now I just love it.

As I said Siege has its counters, Passive Aggression no

I like the idea of talisman that would help counter the Prisoner - leave him as he is I think as less complicated and gives us something to aim for in getting the new talisman. I have a Prisoner but not in PVP yet so never really used him for the grind so I have never used him enough to know his value in a 'real' setting. His time will come I am sure. For now I would leave him and keep him a unique character. Work on talisman sets that can weaken his passive I think sounds best and easiest. This them means less moans from those who have him (I do have him as I said but not really bothered using him much as not full power on talisman yet) and some new talisman we all have to try to get to counter?

Great original post and nice to see you guys working with the community on this.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Frost

Nicki you are wrong here. The way Siege and Passive Aggression work is way different.

Passive Aggression disables all passives. Siege reduce the duration of buffs by one per round.

Siege for example does not disables Cleanse, so evento ir your team is frozen in your turn at least one toon will bem cleansed so you can counter the enemy team. My winrate against blue bat and death dog going second is 90℅. I used to hate having a couple PDK, now I just love it.

As I said Siege has its counters, Passive Aggression no

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FFS frost nothing is like passive aggression that's the whole point of this thread which you inspired and you have taken this off topic.
I get what nicko is saying even if you don't

I just have a sneaking suspicion replacing Prisoners with a blue bat/DM combo is not going to alleviate complaints of "He who goes first wins";)


But if PDK works for you that's cool. By the way Frost - your AoS is a beast!

I get that PvP will be the way of the future for LotB. Totally understandable, as the endless grind for materials is not really sustainable. However, we will still have to grind the campaign for talismans, runes, and gold, and the LoL for shards. The Prisoner is a nice addition to some parties for those other aspects.

It's pretty obvious that the Prisoner was not designed with PvP in mind, and that's perfectly OK. So why the effort to fit a square peg in a round hole? If you (the Developers) don't think the Prisoner will work without major revisions, just pull it out of PvP altogether.

To me, about the ONLY thing he has going for him is his passive. Without it, he is a mediocre, single target attacker. Even with maxed shards and talismans. Having his passive only work on a percent check/first round/susceptible to immunity (don't get that one at all, Immunity comes off a passive, right?), takes the Prisoner right out of the niche role and puts him on the Isle of Lost Toons.

Ban the Prisoner from PvP to keep him as a viable option for the rest of the game. It's OK. The world won't end.

Besides, it's not like we can actually use any old toon for PvP anyways. It's not a level playing field to begin with. If it was, we would be having this discussion about all of the Corrupt Ox Cultists that are ruining the hell out of PvP for everybody!

P.S.- Sparton- love the idea of involving the community in discussions like this. Tapping into the group mind for something like this is a terrific approach. I hope you guys continue this!