Suspect Discussion: Warrior Troll

What It was Designed For
A defensive Warrior which helps bolster the survivability for it’s team.

What We Got
Extremely high first-turn damage potential with two of the Shield passive’s shield types able to do modest damage + one of the strongest AoE true damage basics in the game. The Fury Increase from his Guard All can make you go from nearly no fury to full in a single turn.

Why This is a Problem

• One of the best defensive units having one of the most competitive AoE basic attacks makes him too easy and obvious a shoe-in for many teams, even if his shield is countered (Prisoner, Angel of Pain)
• Guard All makes it possible to have 2nd turn Fury attacks too easily

What We Could Consider Changing

• Lower damage output of basic attack (so other offensive options are more appealing in offence-oriented teams)
• Adjust Shield passive so it doesn’t have damaging shields (to better solidify it as a defensive option)
• Better regulate Increased Fury from Guard All shield (admittedly fury generation right now with this is bugged and needs to be fixed regardless)

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Please let us know your thoughts on this character in the comments. Keep in mind that this is not a for sure set of changes we’re going to do to this character; this is merely where our appraisal design-side is of the character, and we want to discuss this more with the community to get a better sense if changes are necessary for this character or if this character is fine as is.

Rever back his attack to single target. Also put only defensive shields... Real ones. Health shield right now does nothing, since it increases healing but does not heal on attacks. Lowering the fury generated by his power ability is also good.

Maybe just defensive shield would do it...
He's kind of a glass canon on the HP so if he usually hit only once anyway, personally more afraid of shield damages than by his attack because first turn is so critical that depending of shield casted my strategy will change..

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Originally Posted by Frost

Rever back his attack to single target. Also put only defensive shields... Real ones. Health shield right now does nothing, since it increases healing but does not heal on attacks. Lowering the fury generated by his power ability is also good.

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Being against nerfs overall, my vote would be simply that his shield doesn't damage. It would protect the party but not hurt the other team. I like that he casts Guard All so readily on defense, because it's one less attack to make sure Eddie is obliterated before the Fury licks in:D. He's usually the last one I go for when slaughtering the opponent; his damage hasn't seemed problematic when facing him but since I don't have one nerf away! Kidding:p. I'd leave him alone or do a very soft nerf on damage at most.

Remember the bonfire event ? Spend your money and get a higher chance to get this wicked op toon! This is a bad nerf, because you over sold him so now he has to be op . Otherwise any future events like this will be laughed at and ignored. Is having this guy on your team a sure win every time? Is there no counter to his beastieness ? If you spend the money and have 3 of em and your number one defense guy in the world is that so bad? I don't have one but if that's what I need to make my team better maybe I'll spend more money. And that's the real goal hear , make people happy to spend there hard earned money here. 💀

The Troll's defense has 3 counters:

- Prisoner
- Blue Bat
- Death Dog

If a Troll hits hard he is a glass cannon - meaning the other team will knock him down very fast.
If a Troll is built for durabilty his damage is way under 4k - if fully skillsharded!

There was a thread before talking about the Troll and the devs said he is solid. Why is he suddenly OP now? Done too many nerfs on other toons? Nerfing the Troll will render him useless.

I think he is mostly fine. I have never seen the fury generation as a threat as there is so many ways to get around that (freeze/stun him or the Eddie or kill him or the Eddie quick). The shield is easy to counter for a player with a big roster as they are likely to have at least one of the characters that takes the shield away. Guess it might be OP for newer players though. The one place when the shield is OP on higher levels is when he is paired with The Prisoner, and that should be fixed by changing The Prisoner rather than the Troll.

And as has been said, a troll built for high damage will be a glass cannon and a troll built for high HP will deal low damage.

I'm guessing a lot of players, including me, use him for autofarming in PvE and nerfing him will risk making him less useful in that role. Making autofarming harder is NOT something you want to do.

Btw, is his debuff working as it should? Doesn't seem to activate as often as it is supposed to (should be 2 out of every 3 attacks with full skill shards).

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Originally Posted by ToTameAGame

The Troll's defense has 3 counters:

- Prisoner
- Blue Bat
- Death Dog

If a Troll hits hard he is a glass cannon - meaning the other team will knock him down very fast.
If a Troll is built for durabilty his damage is way under 4k - if fully skillsharded!

There was a thread before talking about the Troll and the devs said he is solid. Why is he suddenly OP now? Done too many nerfs on other toons? Nerfing the Troll will render him useless.

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agree with that, yes he might seem OP if you have no counter, but since there are three of them there shouldn't be a problem if you played this game for some months. once you have a counter this character is everything else than OP imo, he is a glass canon with only okay damage output... only in combnation with the prisoner, he is a real probleme, since no other counter exists.

i haven't seen the huge fury boost so far, since i'm more attacking with him, but if that's really so hard, it should be okay to adjust it imo.

if we nerf too much and every character is getting similar, the game would be perfectly balanced, yes. and it would pe perfectly boring. so adjusting broken and definetly OP things is okay, but we shouldn't nerf everything only because it is good, when you can actually counter it with good tactics.

The other counter to the troll passive is to, get ready, wait a round and prep your defense.

Everyone can easily do that too.

He is a glass cannon.

I have him and use him sparingly.

Nerfing the troll is completely unnecessary... glass cannon character with plenty of counters, as has already been said. Leave him alone and fix the real problems, whydon'tcha? :cool:

I'd say the only considerable thing is to make his shields be only defensive so we don't get 6k+ AoE damage from Explosive Shields against which we can't do anything basically.

The blue allied soldier is a kind of "magus troll", and is easy to get. He hits AoE for 5000 and has a reflecting shield for 2 turns (troll only 1 turn)... You can counter the trolls with several characters (prisonner or blue bat passive, blue allied soldier's shield, etc...) or just wait a turn and don't attack them when they have the shield (was my tactic when i met them and hadn't maxed characters).
For me this character is great with his actual skills and don't have to be nerf (or he will become useless)...

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Originally Posted by surfingwithdje

The blue allied soldier is a kind of "magus troll", and is easy to get. He hits AoE for 5000 and has a reflecting shield for 2 turns (troll only 1 turn)... You can counter the trolls with several characters (prisonner or blue bat passive, blue allied soldier's shield, etc...) or just wait a turn and don't attack them when they have the shield (was my tactic when i met them and hadn't maxed characters).
For me this character is great with his actual skills and don't have to be nerf (or he will become useless)...

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How do you not attack him? You start 1st, have 2 energy, you basically can't do anything but basic attack with all your characters.
He's not like Magus Allied Soldier, because his starting shields are passive, meaning they cost no energy.

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Originally Posted by Schadenfreud-0217

How do you not attack him? You start 1st, have 2 energy, you basically can't do anything but basic attack with all your characters.
He's not like Magus Allied Soldier, because his starting shields are passive, meaning they cost no energy.

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You bring a Blue Bat oder a Death Dog given there is no Prisoner in the other team. As it was said many many many many times before - the problems are a few toons in combination with the Prisoner - CG for example as immunity does not work.

If you have a Viking you can use his Loot skill to take the shield from one enemy. In this case I would try to pick one that you could knock out in round one and the defense is down to 3 toons for their attack (4 single heavy hitters might be an option and take the enemy down one by one - steal with Viking and grind the enemy team down). That does help a lot - it's no cure for the Prisoner / Mummy / CG if you go second as you don't have an antidote for the stun festival and won't get a turn. I completely stopped attacking Prisoner teams now as it really pisses me off - I don't blame the ones havong one and using him. But it definitely takes the fun out for those theat don't have one.

Another possibilty would be a toon with 6 energy talismans and attack with that one first. That should give you some juice - well not at the moment as nothing is working at the moment. Quite often you jump from 2 to 4 energy and have enough for the Blue Allied soldier. For example you would have a Bomber Boy and an Blue Allied Soldier in your team - that would be a nice combination for that.

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Originally Posted by Schadenfreud-0217

How do you not attack him? You start 1st, have 2 energy, you basically can't do anything but basic attack with all your characters.
He's not like Magus Allied Soldier, because his starting shields are passive, meaning they cost no energy.

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Used to bring along some single hitters (to attack heal shields exclusively) combined with energy tallismans & camp myself in defense casting shields & lifesteals... Used to have 90% succes rate against Trolls, just need proper attack team to reach 2nd turn & he fall quite fast since he's usually there to protect some squishy chars..
Of course that was before my Prisoner, good luck!

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Originally Posted by Schadenfreud-0217

How do you not attack him? You start 1st, have 2 energy, you basically can't do anything but basic attack with all your characters.
He's not like Magus Allied Soldier, because his starting shields are passive, meaning they cost no energy.

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There are plenty of ways to get past it even when getting the first turn. One of many examples: Soldier Eddie has two basic moves that can generate power. Start with that, then use a toon with the Thieve ability (Assassin Troll, Wickerdog King etc) which steals positive effects. Several ways to go from there. Attack the same toon with Allied General and, likely, get more power and then use Magus Allied Soldier to put up a shield. Or bring Angel of Fear to get a second turn and repeat.

I like to use Void talismans for this, too. That way your team gets a shield as well and it kind of balances out. Of course, that was before talisman effects become impossible to use; also I was taking advantage of the Golden Sun's multi-hit proc bug, so I would get a Void Shield almost every time. It'll be more tricky now (even once they fix the talisman procs).

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Originally Posted by Arcturus

I like to use Void talismans for this, too. That way your team gets a shield as well and it kind of balances out. Of course, that was before talisman effects become impossible to use; also I was taking advantage of the Golden Sun's multi-hit proc bug, so I would get a Void Shield almost every time. It'll be more tricky now (even once they fix the talisman procs).

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Not having problems with void tallisman here, it work exactly like before the update... Having two sets on different toons while attacking put odds in a reasonable zone, won't work behind another shield spell though... Guard or any shield cast first render it useless, love to cast void first & another shield after as it reflects physical/magical & unaffected true DMG end up in the other shield, the other way around render it useless as first shield get priority no matter what..

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Originally Posted by Sag7272

Not having problems with void tallisman here, it work exactly like before the update... Having two sets on different toons while attacking put odds in a reasonable zone, won't work behind another shield spell though... Guard or any shield cast first render it useless, love to cast void first & another shield after as it reflects physical/magical & unaffected true DMG end up in the other shield, the other way around render it useless as first shield get priority no matter what..

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Interesting. I wasn't aware of how it stacked with other shields (but I don't use other shields often).

Regarding whether it's working, I'm probably just noticing it proc-ing less because the AGS no longer has 12 chances to proc (3 hits x 4 enemies). I used to get it on every perfect, but now it's much more rare. Does that seem right to you? I wasn't sure if it was suffering the same fate as the offensive talismans (like freeze) which barely proc at all now, but it sounds like that's not true.

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Originally Posted by Arcturus

Interesting. I wasn't aware of how it stacked with other shields (but I don't use other shields often).

Regarding whether it's working, I'm probably just noticing it proc-ing less because the AGS no longer has 12 chances to proc (3 hits x 4 enemies). I used to get it on every perfect, but now it's much more rare. Does that seem right to you? I wasn't sure if it was suffering the same fate as the offensive talismans (like freeze) which barely proc at all now, but it sounds like that's not true.

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Used to have it proc everytime with my Prisoner/DM/GS combo attack because of that back some times ago...
I used it on my Trolls & Prisoner lately I can say there's no real change since update in how often it trigger...
Since I wasn't using multiple hits because I knew it was going away I was not even aware that Void had any problems..