This is the main post to discuss tuning changes that are in an upcoming update.
You can see the details for the preliminary tuning adjustments in the Game Updates forum post.
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This is the main post to discuss tuning changes that are in an upcoming update.
You can see the details for the preliminary tuning adjustments in the Game Updates forum post.
Hello Sparton and the whole team!
You guys are making the things just right man, it's pretty cool to have so much events and see that you're aware of tweak less used characters and bugs fixing.
Great to see love to Tailgunner, the guy deserves it...
Just as suggestion, you should consider to change some slots color to some characters like Assassin Troll, now that Thieve skill gonna be true damage, having a red slot is useless, the same for the warrior troll his main attack is true and power move are shields. Also, the Gunner COTD, it's gonna be great if you give him some purple slots to the actual full yellow mandatory.
One question, Sparton, the assassin Wickerdeer (please don't make more of this festive character with recycled characters) also has the Chomp move as basic, so it still gets the tuning right?
The last one, are you thinking on tuning some "old" moves improvements/scaling with skillshards?? I mean, some "old" characters have a progression like 5%, 10%, 15%; and "newest" ones are like 20%, 20%, 25%, 25% ... That gives a lot of disadvantage to old fellows and of course, players will spend skillshards on new chars instead of interesting old ones.
That's all, thanks in advance!!
Nice buffs to Tailgunner, and a much needed Def/Mr increase for Cyborg. I'm really damn hoping this will be the Night City update...
Just felt like discussing the update preview. Looks very nice, I'm glad there aren't any nerfs on Christmas.
Tailgunner Eddie is finally getting the buffs he deserves, I've been complaining in my head for months now because the only cool thing about him is his fury, now he may get more chances at being a proper 4* Gunner
Changing the extra turn chance of Call to Arms is a good idea I don't care what some people might say, having a basic attack to use over and over would really kill the fun in my opinion.
I'm pretty glad to see the Dragon Kings being taken down another peg. Changing the damage limit to 50% and adding another turn to the shield limit will definitely change alot, it'll allow a much larger variety of who you can bring with you to those higher dungeons.
The whole thing about the Angel Talismans are pretty interesting. If one talisman set can heal everyone, then stacking them could prove very useful. And power Shields sound awesome, there's been more than one occasion where I've been one power shy of using an important skill because energy stealers would mess up my flow.
We come back to the "unannounced game content" hopefully we'll see that in this update, new content in LotB is like water in a desert. It doesn't come often and it refreshes you whenever you find it.
And finally, I like the target being "mid-month" with that in mind I have an idea on what day it might be, which is rather soon
I like it! Happy to see the Viking Eddie fix.
For the comment on the Trolls, I'm not sure about changing them too all purples, but we'll review what makes sense for talisman slots for them (keeping in mind possible synergies with 4 talisman sets).Quote:
Originally Posted by Demoonchild
Regarding the Gunner Child of the Damned, we'd prefer to not change his talisman slots to purple, because he's been balanced already around stuff like his power attack not having purple slots, so that would make his damage output way higher than we'd like.
It's the same Chomp skill, so yes, the Chomp that Hunting Wickerdeer has would also be tuned. I'll make sure that's reflected in the update's final tuning notes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demoonchild
The bigger skill level gains are typically based on rarity. Most new characters are 4 star and 5 star characters, so they'll typically have higher increases from skill shards. That said, we do periodically review older characters and will tune them accordingly to get stronger gains from skill levels if we think it makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Demoonchild
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amarthir
It's a nice change, but in all honesty, I would like something in the lines of:
- Call to Arms, no longer generates fury when used.
or
- Call to Arms, only generates fury once per round.
I get and support the idea of CtA being too strong as it is now, but it directly connects to another skill of Viking.
65% chance is a nice value, I think it's the correct one if NF is going that way, Accuracy buff will put the % on 90, which can be used to fill fury again, but will have room for failing, and to get there you will have to commit a place on the party for any char that buffs accuracy.
Either way I really dislike the Idea of a skill which when it fails to trigger the extra round "they do nothing*", CtA fails, Viking does nothing other then self buff, and as far as my PvP experience goes, those buffs will get removed on the very next round, and if they don't you will lose one round on then.
*That statement was by the fact that it doesn't immediately affects the battle.
Either way Call to Arms was to easy to abuse if you wanted, not by the skill alone, but by the fact that you generate infinite fury with it.
I like it too, and I basically only have him (from Eddies) fully sharded / max talis and use him in all activities, PvE or PvP related.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudjo
Using him since I returned, way prior to the buff CtA got.
I would like it to be changed on a different way, with the ability to gain the extra turn, but no fury generated when used, that would prevent the abuse, and using it 100x per round would do exactly the same as using it 1 time. (save the 2 times needed when you have the Block Beneficial Effects debuff on him).
TL;DR: My 2 cents: I would prefer a nerf to fury generated by it (to no fury at all) other then a % to a risk of getting self-buffed and nothing more.
Not a rant post, just my personal opinion on the changes. the skill is indeed to strong as it is now.
Cheers!!! Ed.
Nice. But i have a take on call to arms as well. Have it at 100% and then decrease it by 25% -50% each timebit is used after the first attempt.
Again Navigators Roaring Wave gets no fix???
It doesn't provide any benefit apart from a Fury increase after the first use, so how about 100% chance for one extra turn and then no extra turns after that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Browno
Sparton
And about the AoF that the passive is giving extra turn to the team even though he is dead
I'm also hoping this is further addressedQuote:
Originally Posted by GotN
It can if you have some debuffs and need to get rid of those before you can take advantage of the buffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fudjo
Exactly what I was going to say, it serves as a cleanse, but I will just try and explain better why I think the no fury at all would be a nice solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Browno
Since Call to Arms, cleanse, buff, and give an extra turn, you just don't need the fury it generates, why?
Well since you gain an extra turn, you will use any other skill that will generate fury. So even if the fury generated by CtA is removed you won't lose the fury-per-skill-of-the-turn.
Example:
Without the change:
Use CtA - Gain Fury from CtA. (you can fill you entire Fury meter spamming this step).
Use Loot - Gain Fury from Loot.
----------------------------------------
With the change on the preliminary notes:
Use CtA - Gains Fury from CtA.
It fails to give another turn, you get only the fury generated from 1 skill (and no follow-up move, just wait another turn and hope to not get your buffs removed, which happens a lot this days)
Use CtA - Gains Fury from CtA and another turn triggers.
Use Loot - Gains Fury from Loot.
----------------------------------------
With CtA not giving any fury (but retaining the extra turn):
Use CtA - No Fury gained, extra turn triggers (no room to abuse as a fury gas station either).
Use Loot - Gains Fury from Loot.
----------------------------------------
In my humble opinion its the most balanced scenario in regards to abusing fury gain from CtA.
And a pretty safe way to change it regarding as coding, changing the value of the fury gained from XXX to 0 (zero) is in most cases a pretty bug free/safe scenario.
As awalys... Cheers!!! Ed.
Sparton, just wanted to see if this is on the radar, is it aware that Trooper Eddie's fury and Eda's passive removes the passive of other Eda's. Meaning if you have two Eda's on one team and she gives the two turns perfect immunity it over writes the passive of the other Eda so she no longer has perfect immunity for infinite turns.
Im also with you on the 0 fury road for call to arms :)
It can be a 4 skill usage sometimes with it. Cta, mr charge, cta and whatever other skill you want to use.
Yeah, and the fact that it can become a Congrats-on-Wasting-3-Power Skill is just sad... Cause I can count 1 maybe 2 times out of every 10 uses, where My MR Charge into CtA survived the follow-up turn before the buff to CtA, one hit from Clair, WUR, Wrath and that's it... gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Browno
If you go that way NF, please at least do another change... change the name from Call to Arms, to Wasting Love. Cause you know, Love is a really nice thing, but when it fails or become wasted, it crushes ya...
Edit: Remembered another sad scenario that it also affects, if you want to get rid of some debuffs, for example the Block Beneficial Effects one. you will have a solid chance of doing absolutely nothing for a turn. how you ask?
Glad you asked my friend!!!
- CtA to remove BBE. (when CtA removes this specifically debuff, it don't give any buffs, just the cleanse effect resolves, you have to use again to get the MR and Immunity buff going).
- CtA Fails to trigger extra turn.
- Viking sits on a corner and cry for the rest of the turn. with nothing, no buffs, debuffs, or dmg to opposing team, Wasting... his... Love... for the battle he is enduring...
Still with some hope.... Cheers!!! Ed.
Well I guess the main thing I can discuss about this update is Tailgunner Eddie getting a buff, which I think is fantastic since he's actually my main Eddie and I think he is seriously underrated. So to see him getting the buffs he's getting is greatly appreciated.
BUT, I really don't think changing his talisman slots is necessary - at least in my case (I run him with 4 boost and 2 strength which is my ideal setup with him) - seeing as some of his key moves scale based on the special stat so confining him to a maximum of just 3 yellow talismans I feel potentially affects his capability. Just my input of course but I'm glad that Tailgunner is finally getting some love.
The problem is that our current system doesn't allow us to just not gain Fury from an action... the amount of Fury you gain (assuming no outside factors) is based on the character's Special stat. There's global multipliers we can tweak based on the feature (that would affect all skills), but not something we can use to reduce the Fury gained from doing a specific action. Thus the current solution, of making it pretty reliably give you an extra turn in some situations... but not guaranteed (so that if you want that "utility" of shedding off certain debuffs, it's a gamble).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sponholz
I'll pass that along for investigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by JJJ428
I'll pass that along to Kaz to consider. I haven't used Tailgunner Eddie much personally, so I don't have any specific thoughts, but he may be thinking of something I'm missing.Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclear1250
Also I was surprised more people haven't asked and I know he did get a lot of boosts but I feel Aces High Eddie HP and defenses are still too low for a 5 star. I know his attack is high but even solider eddie has much better HP and defense not looking for anything crazy but i feel some slight stat bumps might be in order. I feel like he was suppose to be a counter to VHE but being the opposite class and that weak, VHE can some times one shot him making him being a counter kind of poor. Wanted to see what others thought, maybe I just have terrible talismans builds for him that never work.
I don't agree with the talismans setup.Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclear1250
The new configuration seems better since it opens more chances to use Tailgunner at his best, so you will be able to give him, for example, Echo which is currently impossible to do. Or you can give him a set of thorn or explosive, plus 2 strength snd one green to improve health and turn him into a killing machine.
I pretty like the tuning with 3 mandatory red, if you don't want him, just leave your Talismans as they are, and take care on no take them off...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB
First things, first... Thanks for the fast reply! This is one the things I like the most about this game, the feedback from the staff, and the advanced changes opened to discussion is something that I already said on another thread, pretty rare this days.
Ok back to it, I will talk based on my personal experience, since I don't have access to any parts of the coding involved on LotB, but, if there is a global variable/function to calculate the amount of fury gained based on char stats, there should be something that calls it when any given action is used, and there should be some way to disable calling that specific function that calculates the fury, doesn't matter if its based on a global value or not, if the function is not called there could be a NULL return.
Or, they could add an exception on the function that calculates the fury so that if the action calling the function have the ID for Call to Arms (which I believe there is a way to track which action is calling any function, in some cases even the LABEL of a button can be used to raise an exception), returning a NULL (or zero or anything similar) value for the fury gained if it was called from certain skill, if there is nothing atm that can filter things like this, I strongly suggest that something on this line should be tested internally for future use, this game can be really complex as coding goes, just looking at the amount of different effects and combination of this effects that can occur on a single battle.
AGAIN:
Based on personal experience on coding both professionally and for personal use. I'm just trying to discuss and be as constructive as I can.
As usual, Cheers!!! Ed.
I would say to give this a chance. Let's say that he has an Echo and a Hunter set. If he gets accuracy up, Barrage could lower everyone's defense and ignite them at the same time, and if he gets an extra turn, he can use it again for very brutal damage. Then you add the Allied General for raising attack and giving him critical hit chance, he'll probably wipe out alot of competition. He'll do wonders in Brave New WorldQuote:
Originally Posted by Demoonchild
I'm happy to have the dialog with you and others as well! It's definitely something we still don't see many game developers do, but I love to be part of these discussions to help improve the game more and to help inform/educate others on the development process that goes into games like ours (especially with more and more people getting into games and software in general).Quote:
Originally Posted by Sponholz
This is basically the approach we would need to take to do what you're proposing (adjust the code, with either adding to data structure to support it or part of the code change requiring a specific work around to get the desired effect). It's totally doable (as far as coding goes, damn near anything is technically possible), but the problem is that it then goes from something a designer can fix to something that requires a programmer to fix... and that is often the bottleneck for the most important kinds of fixes or improvements. The time it would take to fix that could be equal to or more than the time to fix a combat hang, or functionality to enable an entirely new kind of talisman or skill effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sponholz
In this case, because the idea of "don't generate fury for this specific situation" only opens up a strategic option for a small subset of characters, it's something we have to weigh against the value of doing one of those coding fixes, and right now that isn't the place we'd want our programmers to focus our attention on. That said, it's definitely something we'll keep in mind... if we see more potential places where the kind of functionality you're describing would be valuable, then we're re-evaluate based on what we'd be planning to deliver on that next milestone.
In summary, most of the tuning and a handful of the fixes you see in stuff like the tuning notes is stuff that Kaz or I (but mostly Kaz) can do as designers to improve and deepen the experience of the game, and that's usually the constraint most fixes and changes will have. Utilizing programmer time is something we need to be very careful with to ensure we don't fall into too much of a defect for quality improvements (it doesn't matter what game you're talking about, there's always another bug to fix).
the balancing seems very reasonable to me, love the TG fixes and the changes of his slots. he might even become useable in the arena. "rambo" is one of the coolest eddies for sure, so he deserves some love.
agree on JJJs suggestion, AHE is a very strong hitter but a bit more surviviability would be cool for him.
aside this i would just like to ask you if you could consider some counter for perfect immunity, which slows down matches a lot. right now only thing we have is an aop to shorten down the duration of buffs. but if chars like death dog would remove all effects (including PI) this would be great. sure it's kind of a contradiction to remove perfect immunity, but i think it's necessary.
shouldn't be an crazy aoe removal, but i had something in mind like letting perfect corruption neuter perfect immunity. so if you have PI on a char and an enemy puts perfect corruction on you the PI will simply disappear without being perfect corrupted. so the char will be simply stripped.
like permadeath as counter for perfect immortality.
regarding your coding time post this might be too much, but something against all these edas would be cool. as said before i don't think they are OP but they slow everything down a lot and make arena really annoying to play.
slow games --> less sow burned --> less refills --> less income --> threat of unemployment :D
cheers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB
Yeah I agree, I was just using the Call to Arms as an example by the time I wrote that, was talking more as a coder/programmer and also as a player, if it would require any changes to the game engine, then yeah at this point I advise to just think about adding as a fail-safe/troubleshoot measure on a mid to long term, when a deeply change like that could be done and tested well.
Hence why I previously posted that a simple change to the value would be bug free, and I can see that trying to implement a change to the core of the game can bring more harm then good atm.
Again, I am really pleased for the fast replies, and the fact that you don't try to rodeo things up, just plain explain, helps a lot also. On times like we live today a little transparency of whats going on behind the scenes can go a long way. (this don't applies to just LotB, gaming or whatever product you name, a customer service like the one you all provide is indeed a rare thing).
And I am also really pleased and happy by the fact that so far, my forum experience on this game is just awesome, almost all the players that post here try to be as constructive as possible, and almost always leave the toxicity on really low levels.
So in all honesty, props to LotB Staff (Sparton/Kaz are the ones I see the most on the forums, but this extend to everyone involved), and all the players that post a lot of good info and feedback to the devs, I am mostly sure I can speak on their behalf that a crowd like this makes the life of a developer a lot healthier. I wish I had the feedback most of you provide while I was coding as a profession.
Particularly this time of the year.... Cheers!!! Ed!
So you’d like to see ALMOST Perfect Immunity ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
But if they did come up with a counter I like your suggestion. Aces High “Do or Die” is a nice counter to Immortality - and when combined with the other buffs they made recently - brought him nicely to 5* status
FOTD may become much more usable if Perfect Corruption was a counter to Perfect Immunity
So basically you want A.Valkyrie to be even more op. No thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
it was an example akelly...Quote:
Originally Posted by angelkelly
Good point. If used Perfect Corruption would likely need to nerf that part of the Assassin Valkyrie.Quote:
Originally Posted by angelkelly
Not a bad idea actually ;)
And to Slaukis original point, I liked the Perfect Corruption idea because all of a sudden another Eddie (FOTD) other than the “Big 3” - VHE, Aces High, and Pharaoh - becomes really usable.
please check the passive of the crimson dog. he didn't apply the accuracy debuff against a prisoner team, even he had immunity on:
my team:
arillery dog (immunity/energy)
VHE (immunity/immortality)
crimson dog (immunity/hunter)
dog of war (enduring/guardian)
enemy:
AHE (immunity/shell/strength)
prisoner (thorn/immunity)
Astra (guardian immortality)
SSD (energy/strike)
the debuff should have been active but prisoner most likely blocked it.
Any servers down? Not able to get past loading screen for a few hours. I'm on iOS.
I have been playing since daily reset and playing right now with no issues. I am also on IOS.
Hi all again! :)
I was thinking and have another 2 suggestions for Viking's Call to Arms with the 65% chance.
1 - How about instead of the Normal Immunity we get now, It gives Perfect Immunity for a turn, ONLY if it fails to trigger the extra turn? (This would make the skill valuable even when it don't give the extra turn, making sure you would still have the buffs up for the next turn).
2 - If the above is not possible, how about when you use it if Viking have no buffs after the skill resolves it triggers the extra turn, or at least apply the buffs its supposed to apply. (Typical scenario is the use when Viking have Block Beneficial Effects debuff up, after CtA resolves he is cleansed but the buffs, MR and Immunity, don't apply).
And since we are on the subject...
If Viking already have Increased MR and Immunity buff up, then MR Charge is used, followed by CtA, it consumes a turn on MR Charge buff, and only refreshes the turns left on Increased MR and Immunity, it doesn't overwrite the old Increased MR buff with the stronger one, I truly hope that this is a bug and not intended, cause if it is, when you use Viking with Allied Bomber Boy on the same team you render MR Charge a useless skill until the initial Increased MR buff from Allied Bomber Boy is removed/expired, and CtA can't be used also until Viking have no MR buffs at all (then MR Charge followed by CtA will apply the stronger Increased MR).
Cheers!!! Ed.
The changes to the dragon kings damage/turn limit.....my tired brain is trying to work out if essentially it makes the dragon kings less daunting or more. I'm thinking less daunting but I'm probably wrong....so which one is it?
I was wondering the sameQuote:
Originally Posted by thealchemist
It should be less daunting. Before the shields would come back if you did over 33% damage to them. That's why shield would reset 2 times a battle usually. Now with it being changed to 50% should only come back once if you time everything right with the resets, Unless you are as good as Mariner and can one shot the Dragon King.
As per the followup discussion, not sure if Perfect Corruption is the right answer, but finding some other counter is definitely something we can consider. I prodded Kaz about it, and he agrees that there's "too many problems" with using Perfect Corruption as the answer, but counters to Perfect Immunity are on the radar.Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
While he may not be often used as an attacker commonly at the top of the PVP leaderboard, he's still commonly used as both an attacker and as a defense team leader pretty commonly throughout PVP, so I'm not sure if this particual Nat 4 Eddie needs a whole lot changed for that specific purpose. Hell, once more counters to Perfect Immunity are around, Fear of the Dark Eddie becomes naturally more appealing anyways (since Immunity hampers him greatly).Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
Thanks for the detailed info. I'll pass this along for investigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
I'm not too sure about having situational stuff on failures to trigger... while an interesting idea, it contributes to making the character more and more complex to understand when there's a lot of edge cases for a character for people to consider when learning about a character (such as when they get them for the first time), and Viking Eddie already has a lot going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sponholz
That said, it's definitely something we'll keep in mind after playtesting him more after this next batch of tuning goes live.
This, however, is a known bug. It's something we're looking at (and we're also considering things like changing Charge to affect existing stat up buffs as well), but we don't have a timeline for a fix/adjustment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sponholz
Glad I was able to at least contribute in some form, I know I'm not a high-end player like Slauki, JJJ, Askora, and the others, but I try my best in each game I devote my time for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB
Second but not least, this game is already really complex after you go the PvP way, each and every Eddie and some other units I have played with demands time to get used to. There is a LOT of combinations and things you can try (I know there will always be a FOTM talisman or party setup). I honestly don't think a change like that would over-complicate Viking. In my opinion every Eddie I managed to get so far, gave me that feeling, Oh, hes easy to play with, but really hard to master with.
I really appreciate your time Sparton. Thanks for all the replies so far, and let's see if the patch it's a Do or Die for my fellow Viking. :cool:
Cheers!!! Ed!
FYI, one of our QA just got back to me after investigating this; it appears there's an issue when:Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
- Multiple characters have a passive that triggers status effects at the start of battle
- The above characters are all protected by Immunity Talismans
- An enemy has the Prisoner
Basically, the key is more than one character on a team doing start-of-battle effects against a Prisoner team. In this case, only one of the characters with the passives will trigger (I presume you saw Repeal function correctly, but not Daze).
Due to where we're at with the next update, it's unlikely it'll be fixed in time for that, but we'll make sure it's in our system to prioritize for a future update.
EDIT: Also, thanks again for the detailed info; our original attempts to reproduce this didn't see the bug due to using less characters on each team, so your full loadout info was key to identifying the way to reproduce the bug.