Going blind into pvp

I originally posted this in the July 2017 Tuning Discussion - PRELIMINARY thread

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Originally Posted by Askora

Two things that would probably help the defense immensely in pvp, probably wouldn't be too hard to implement.

#1 - Probably best if this one were implemented when there are far fewer bugs plaguing the game. Quit showing the attacker my talisman setup. It makes it much easier for the attacker to identify which toon poses the greatest threat based on talismans. You'd still need to show the buffs that are applied, so some would be obvious, but for the ones that don't apply a buff you'd only find out after that toon attacked and it triggered.

#2 - This one might be easier and shouldn't keep people from being able to tell if something is a bug or not. Don't show what toons I have on defense. When the attacker goes to the battle screen, show them something like a relative strength for defense instead of what toons I have on defense. They'll find out what they have to fight once they go into battle. I know it was mentioned that NF is working on being able to show what team your defense faced, but that will always be after the battle is over. Offenses and defenses are not always the same. So, a revenge becomes a much greater risk and tailoring an offense to a particular defense can only be done after you've battled them at least once. Then switching up defenses makes a lot of sense because you don't want people to always know what you have.

Nice part about these is there is no scripting, only changes to the display. I think it would make pvp a lot more challenging.

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A number of long time players and forum members have weighed in on that thread. It was suggested by Sparton that I move the discussion to it's own thread as it really isn't relevant to the coming update.

A synopsis of the discussion is that it seems most people are opposed as they feel it would be more RNG in the arena. I disagree as I feel it forces you to have a more balanced offense that is prepared for anything. I also suggested that maybe have it apply to only the top 250 or even 100 as I feel that would give a lot of incentive to stay in those positions throughout the week and potentially make the last few hours before reset less of a race.

Arguments against include more time involved playing pvp, but if a lot of people are taking longer than it doesn't really change rankings all that much. Less coins earned, although prices in the store could be adjusted to better match what people are earning. A greater chance of losing a battle in pvp, but isn't that why most of us don't have a level 1 3* Eddie as our sole defense?

This thread may die on the vine, but at this point it doesn't much matter. Sparton stated that the dev team really doesn't want to take the game this way. Apparently debuff and taunt are far less RNG than actually having to make a balanced team.

Putting this up so that maybe people can find it easier and give their opinions.

Some of my arguments for this type of system:

Defense becomes a lot more important. Not changing your defense could cost you.
A balanced offense becomes more important as you don't know what you'll be facing.
You might lose. So, as a result, some defensive hold rates might improve.

I don't think it would make a huge difference as I know I use one primary team for most of my pvp battles. I assume for most long time players it's about the same, so it wouldn't affect game play that significantly. I think it could actually help some of the more recent (smaller roster) players compete. Then there might be some new names on the pvp lists.

No, this is not because I don't feel I have the toons to compete. I have enough talismans fully leveled for over a dozen toons. And this is my current roster.

Attachment 3252

I go blind into PvP as it is. People actually look at matchups before fighting? lol These points are all mute, people want too many crutches in this game to compensate for their skill.

Let's replace the whole system with participation ribbons.

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Originally Posted by Jofer16

I go blind into PvP as it is. People actually look at matchups before fighting? lol These points are all mute, people want too many crutches in this game to compensate for their skill.

Let's replace the whole system with participation ribbons.

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That's my feeling. I've got one main team, and while my offense isn't 100%, I don't think it's too bad considering. I don't get why people think they need to know what the defense is when the AI is fairly predictable.

What's funny to me, is that I read all the comments about the endless grinding and how boring it's become. So, if the next update brings BNW we get new content. It'll be stale and old in a week or so, if it takes that long. I'm really not a big pvp player, I prefer pve. Just my choice. But, the future of the game has to lie in pvp as without a huge development team there is no way they can pump out new content (and hope for any quality control, don't get me started) at a rate that will keep people satisfied. BNW is already almost a year late and long time players are dropping out left and right.

I fully support that. It will also help to bring a bit of a strategy to defence if you change it really often and others can't see it.
On the other hand who the hell checks defence team, i got a standard attack team and 1 in 100 fights i change 1 toon.

Serious question here, more for the devs than anything, but if anyone cares to chime in that's cool.

It was mentioned that they're working on a capability to see what offenses your defense has faced. What exactly is the point of that feature? If people know my defense before they attack, then there is little to gain in knowing what past attackers used. Wouldn't it make more sense to spend time on something that actually adds to the game? People with the roster and talisman resources will simply switch toons to counter my new defense. The only advantage is given to players with more resources. I don't see how that encourages newer players to compete.

This new feature would make a lot more sense to me if it was combined with something along the lines of what I've suggested. If there is a dominant theme in the attacking teams, you switch your defense to counter that and hold rate climbs until people adapt.

My take on the whole thing from comments in the forum:

If people think the AI is bad, why be opposed to a level playing field in pvp?
People want 100% win rate and a high hold rate on defense. Did anyone take math?
Those who are only playing for the iron coins being opposed to it have obviously never tried a lone level 1, 3 star eddie on defense. It works quite well other than having to wait for the attacks against you to catch up.

I think for the most part, people don't want more competition. I think what the game needs is more competition. Also, it would be nice to see NF promote the forum a lot more to give newer players the advantage of the experience from veteran players. That would make a more competitive environment, which in turn would make ideas such as signed merchandise for eternal more viable. I'm sure there are legal considerations for things like that, but being a competition it should be less of a hurdle than if it were a sweepstakes. Growing the player base and making the rewards valuable enough that you keep people competing seems like a solid strategy.

I don't even like the idea of being able to see how someone beat my defense. I typically get discouraged when testing defenses because I can beat them all easily, It is the characters that I don't own that usually give me trouble. Sometimes I will put in a defense based on one I have a hard time beating. If I could then see how everyone is beating the same defense, then I wouldn't have to figure it out on my own. I personally would enjoy this game a lot more if defenses were holding at 40+% and we were struggling to get an 80% win rate.