March 2019 Tuning Discussion - PRELIMINARY

[Blade]

Actually, the regular Mythics do have an increase of 50 frags, but the other Mythics will remain as is.

-Kaz

I am really confused now with these changes. Could you please share a clear list with us showing which type of frags will be affected? This would be really great and helpful, and highly appreciated! Thanks!

[Liu]

I dare you to demonstrate to us how your testing procedure works. There is a 25% percent chance for a successful hit when labyrinth are equipped. Meaning, for 10% HP damage, I require to make 4 hits (in expectation). In order to deal 100% HP damage I have to hit 40 times. With eclipse on the other hand, 5% HP is lost on each hit. meaning for 100% HP damage I need to hit 20 times. That's half of what is required for toons equipped with labyrinth. Plus, labyrinth is one talisman less than eclipse, not a buff (it's a passive) and inflicts debuffs on all enemies. If your tests don't reveal the superiority of labyrinth your testing procedures are seriously flawed.

[Zantarath]

Regarding concerns about the Labyrinth Talismans, the feedback is appreciated and your concerns are understood.

As always we will keep an eye on things and adjust if need be, but during testing they did not outright prove to be better than Eclipse Talismans (or even Destiny for that matter) due to the prevalence of multi-hitters, immunity, their inability to prevent MAX HP reduction, and the surprising difference the 10% HP damage makes vs the 5% in killing the target with these talismans faster (using pretty accessible units). As far as their effectiveness on blockers like Set, they are okay, but passive disable tends to mitigate their advantage as well as the additional hits of damage they take from blocking the hits of other allies (Destiny was much more of a problem so far than these Talismans atm, I think). Shadow Sustaining / Advantage is still probably a more reliable build for Set.

These Talismans are more meant to allow certain Eddies (and potentially other characters) to become useful in Arena Offense / Defense, because they do increase the chances of them at least being able to survive the first round (unlike Shroud which can be stripped).

The main point is, with any character or talisman it is important that we actually have the chance to play with them in context to get the clearest picture of their overall strength and potential in the meta. If we find that it becomes too prevalent or overwhelming for whatever reason, we will look at adjusting them as needed, while still allowing them to reach their goals.


-Kaz

Kaz u do realize the invisibility from shadow is removed from Set the moment he attacks and leaving him open for enemy turn and Set will not have invisibility untill player's turn so Shadow set in 99% of the cases is useless for Set as a block set, it however is great for damage i suppose.

[Kaz_LOTB]

If your tests don't reveal the superiority of labyrinth your testing procedures are seriously flawed.

There is no doubt they take more hits on average, they are just more variable than Eclipse and can really be hampered by Max HP reduction effects. They are also not that much more difficult to take out in a round with just a few multi-hitters. Eclipse does have the weakness of being strippable, but there is a trade off there for sure. And as I mentioned, on a Blocker like Set, they don't tend to perform as well as you might expect due to all the incoming hits from allies. The other factor to consider is that Eclipse is becoming a fairly accessible set as they are farmable in the dungeons, whereas all 5-sets will be much more difficulty to obtain, but can be used with a cosmic talisman, so again there is a trade off in cost vs value that will need to be considered within the larger context as well.

It however is great for damage i suppose.

Yeah, I find Shadow way better on Set, personally for this reason. If you go second you usually have protection for the first turn, if you go first paired with a primordial user or other damage enhancer, you can deal great damage and give yourself Perfect Hit, which potentially allows you to do it again next turn.

-Kaz

[Stormseye]

These Talismans are more meant to allow certain Eddies (and potentially other characters) to become useful in Arena Offense / Defense, because they do increase the chances of them at least being able to survive the first round (unlike Shroud which can be stripped).

-Kaz

I am not sure if this a the direction to go but if these talismans were designed with Eddies in mind could they be flagged to only be used on Eddies? Then you accomplish the goal and not cause too much turmoil once someone figures out the "best possible ally" use for them.

I cannot get too much behind the pushback factor on these new sets until they actually come into play and we have tested them ourselves. Mostly we can only speculate on the outcome and can't really make a judgement.

[Zantarath]

however there is currently a bug with Invisibility and immunity not working properly on first turn when enemy team has both KP and Prisoner
my chracter was running SET with Shadow yesterday and expecting useful interaction. but it seems my SET's passive as well as my Assassin Banshee's passive are disabled even tho i have no Passive disable icon on my characters when the enemies won the coin toss and attack my team i basically wiped.

Keep in mind that i had Immunity on assasin banshee and Shadow on set so its not possible for my characters to have passive disable

it feels more like somehow KP is removing the "Buff" applied by assassin banshee because this bug goes away if i use a sacrifice set on blocker so KP does not seem to remove assassin banshee's passive from my blocker.

[Kaz_LOTB]

however there is currently a bug with Invisibility and immunity not working properly on first turn when enemy team has both KP and Prisoner
my chracter was running SET with Shadow yesterday and expecting useful interaction. but it seems my SET's passive as well as my Assassin Banshee's passive are disabled even tho i have no Passive disable icon on my characters when the enemies won the coin toss and attack my team i basically wiped.

Keep in mind that i had Immunity on assasin banshee and Shadow on set so its not possible for my characters to have passive disable

it feels more like somehow KP is removing the "Buff" applied by assassin banshee because this bug goes away if i use a sacrifice set on blocker so KP does not seem to remove assassin banshee's passive from my blocker.

I believe this may actually be an issue with the Prisoner that we're looking into along with other Passive Disable fixes. Did you happen to have a Prisoner on your team as well, or was it only on the enemy's team?

-Kaz

[Stormseye]

It is not technically a "bug" Zantarath. It is more of an unintentional mechanic based on the Prisoner's Passive. This why I inquired as to when Prisoner passive would be adjusted. What happens when you have KP/Prisoner is that the KP passive will always kick in first removing two beneficial effects, Immunity not withstanding since he can remove any two effects and if you only have two then you lose them both. Then the Prisoner passive kicks in and disables your team. Add to that Primordials and you begin the match at a severe disadvantage, especially if you lose the coin toss as well. What appears to be a bug is that if you can cleanse the Disable Passive or "transform" it with Alchemist, the effect is still in place and the next round the AI defense will still be able to bypass the Assassin Banshee passive because the latent Disable Passive is still in place so your team is still under the effects of Disable Passive. This only happens when the two allies are combined. Prisoner alone will not remove Immunity if you have it on an ally. Prisoner will still Disable Passive on anyone without Immunity. KP will still remove two effects when alone but the Disable Passive in not in place so the Assassin banshee will still protect the blocker even if they don't have Immunity.

[The Emperor]

Those new Labyrinth Talismans will be a very big game breaker, and you know why? How are we supposed to know when the enemys got a user of them? Should i just Always be prepared now and bring only Multi hitters during an Arena match? I understand that you want to make a efw Chars better by giving them an Option to survive, but the numbers are just to high. Furthermore, A char that would counter them Pretty good for example would be gunner dog. He hits 6 times and has a Chance of reset, but you know what? the Talismans do a stop effect! You guys could just Change the numbers a bit, like 50% Chance to be hit with 15% of the Health. I mean Keep in mind that Mres and armor still reduce the dmg of the hits!. This will be more than enough to help Eddies like Doomsday survive a hit!

[Natasmai]

There is no doubt they take more hits on average, they are just more variable than Eclipse and can really be hampered by Max HP reduction effects. They are also not that much more difficult to take out in a round with just a few multi-hitters. Eclipse does have the weakness of being strippable, but there is a trade off there for sure. And as I mentioned, on a Blocker like Set, they don't tend to perform as well as you might expect due to all the incoming hits from allies. The other factor to consider is that Eclipse is becoming a fairly accessible set as they are farmable in the dungeons, whereas all 5-sets will be much more difficulty to obtain, but can be used with a cosmic talisman, so again there is a trade off in cost vs value that will need to be considered within the larger context as well.




Yeah, I find Shadow way better on Set, personally for this reason. If you go second you usually have protection for the first turn, if you go first paired with a primordial user or other damage enhancer, you can deal great damage and give yourself Perfect Hit, which potentially allows you to do it again next turn.

-Kaz

Did I miss something? Where are the 6 set talismans dropping? Or when will this start? If you are referring to the monthly RNG-fest dungeon runs, maybe fix the drop rates. I must have done over 1000 runs for primordials and i think i got 2 or 3 total and they all came WELL after the 600 run mark.

Otherwise, is this a new change coming soon? Personally I would like to see a reasonable chance of the 6 set talismans to drop from the talisman horde daily, instead of complete crap talismans that i just sell right away.