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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puntwothree View Post
    This only highlights the problem.

    No one should be discouraged from playing the game. The only way to get the full Odin suite of rewards (individual & clan) is to kill a fresh Odin dead. I don’t want anyone in my clan to start thinking they shouldn’t attack a fresh Odin any more than I want them to think they should be obligated to attack an Odin in the red. I want them to feel like they are helping any time they choose to participate. (And I want them to earn the best individual rewards they are able to earn and participate whenever they can.)

    Refreshing Odin addresses this concern.
    Refreshing Odin only disguises this concern. I'm sorry but this just seems to be a fundemental difference in how we believe Clans should work.

    I agree that doing more work should net more rewards but having Odin's health refresh after every battle removes strategy and team work from the equation. What's the point of making this a team effort if your contributions only add to an arbitrary point total.

    Leaving an Odin in the red allows you to use different teams, requires different strategies and gives some of the "lower power" members of a clan a way to contribute plus doesn't leave the clans full of players like this with a sense of hopelessness. Why on earth would they want to battle an Odin that they can't kill?

    Edit for additional thought: Removing the need to kill Odin, also removes the reward of killing Odin. If you can't kill Odin in one go there should be some sort of punishment. Just refreshing Odin removes that punishment. There's a reason Odins 1-9 aren't permanently dead once you move to the next level. If you want to get more rewards and raid points for your SoB and Odin X is in the red, you can get more rewards taking down a fresh nine instead of finishing off the X.
    Last edited by MuzakMaker; 04-17-2020 at 06:07 PM.
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  2. #22
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    @muzakmaker: I’m not quoting your recent reply simply in an effort to save space. Nothing personal.

    Player A can kill Odin at full health.

    Player B cannot.

    Scenario: Odin is at full health.

    Question: Does player B have an incentive to play Odin?

    If Player B does, Player A might be perturbed with Player B, because (s)he may see this as a loss of rewards for the clan. If Player B does not, it will show up in Player B’s contribution that (s)he has not played, and Player A might be mad anyhow.

    Now we have a Catch-22 where Player A is always mad at Player B, when Player B was just trying to play the game.

    So what if Player B waits? Well, Player A enters the fight, kills Odin, and Odin comes back fresh. Now what should Player B do? Wait for Player A to take another turn? Or for C to step in? How long should player B stare at his/her phone or computer before a low Odin appears, and (s)he can step in?

    Automatic refresh addresses this. It doesn’t give Player B the satisfaction of killing Odin, but is that satisfaction worth the conflict that was just created or the minimal available rewards (with Odin in the red)? And who says Player B finds killing Odin satisfying? This seems to be where we disagree.

    Truthfully (IMO) Odin X shouldn’t die at all, but you have to put a cap on him somewhere or the battle would last forever.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member waymo's Avatar
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    what if it's the end of the week & you have used your best teams? odin still needs to be killed. So far I'v only found 2 teams that will kill him outright so i just keep plugging. Hopefuly helping someone else with poorer teams to finish him off

  4. #24
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    Aside/Additional: I have a few schemas up my sleeve that do well against Odin and/or Kill him, but they don’t do it quick. Communicating to thirty people in different time zones that I want Odin to myself for thirty minutes doesn’t seem like the most efficient way to play this.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by waymo View Post
    what if it's the end of the week & you have used your best teams? odin still needs to be killed. So far I'v only found 2 teams that will kill him outright so i just keep plugging. Hopefuly helping someone else with poorer teams to finish him off
    There isn’t really a reward for killing him, and that is part of the problem (solution #1). There is no reason we should need to “finish him off” other than for the private satisfaction of seeing him fall to his knees.

    Conversely, if you were in my clan I would want you to keep plugging... in principle. But in practice, I might prefer you didn’t (if Odin was full) because I’d want a crack at him. The game shouldn’t operate this way.
    Last edited by Puntwothree; 04-17-2020 at 07:19 PM.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Maiden's Avatar
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    Maybe we are all seeing the same elephant in the room, if we set aside the satisfaction (???) of killing Odin, I mean the fact of giving him the final blow/kiss/goodbye/adios/sayonara (ok you got it xd) what´s the difference in rewards? Isn´t a big one right? Rewards according to dmg are kinda fair, it would be the same if you do the first 15% or the last 15% on Odin. In that scenario, the reset should work and everybody should feels that was equally done. On the other hand, we might lose motivation fighting Odin in that way.

    In that case, we could improve the motivation of actually killing Odin if we had rewards according on how many times Odin X has died, aside from the total weekly puntuation. IE. 100.000 points and 500 Odin deads (I like as currency, hey give me 10 Odindeads for that! xD)
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puntwothree View Post
    There isn’t really a reward for killing him, and that is part of the problem (solution #1). There is no reason we should need to “finish him off” other than for the private satisfaction of seeing him fall to his knees.

    Conversely, if you were in my clan I would want you to keep plugging... in principle. But in practice, I might prefer you didn’t (if Odin was full) because I’d want a crack at him. The game shouldn’t operate this way.
    There is a reward for killing him, he's back at full health which means full rewards are back.
    I think we are just going to disagree on this and while I think you are absolutely wrong it's just two different opinions and both are valid.

    Having Odin need to be killed before being back at full health is also a great way to help balance out the total clan points.

    It's very easy as a player to say "I think it's best that all of our clan members should be able to get the max rewards at all times". As a player that sounds amazing.

    The game as whole needs to be metered to lessen power creep and putting this restriction helps keep the gap between clans like ours from easily getting SSS every week while the rest of clans struggle to make even as high as B or A.

    Trust me I want all those shiny trinkets that come with a clan that is acing the raids, but I don't want the game to be come so off balanced that the bulk of the players are left out in the cold. It can be hard for all us to remember (and I'm definitely including myself in this) that those of us on the forums and discord and even some facebook groups are the minority. If the devs only listen to us and cater to our levels, we run the risk of alienating all those casual players and all of the $5-20 purchases they bring.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maiden View Post
    Maybe we are all seeing the same elephant in the room, if we set aside the satisfaction (???) of killing Odin, I mean the fact of giving him the final blow/kiss/goodbye/adios/sayonara (ok you got it xd) what´s the difference in rewards? Isn´t a big one right? Rewards according to dmg are kinda fair, it would be the same if you do the first 15% or the last 15% on Odin. In that scenario, the reset should work and everybody should feels that was equally done. On the other hand, we might lose motivation fighting Odin in that way.

    In that case, we could improve the motivation of actually killing Odin if we had rewards according on how many times Odin X has died, aside from the total weekly puntuation. IE. 100.000 points and 500 Odin deads (I like as currency, hey give me 10 Odindeads for that! xD)
    there is a significant difference in rewards based on how the fights fall. Obviously a max kill from 100% awards 3000 points, but it also rewards significant prizes that really do add up and are worth the effort. On the other hand, if you go in and maybe do a 50% fight and die, you get significantly less rewards and the raid points may only be around 950ish. Now you can have 2 people each finish him off with 50% fights, but you are only getting 1900 points instead of 6000 points. Setting aside the point difference, the combined raid rewards of frags, souls, and other resources from the 2 50% fights is definitely a large step down from even a single 100% kill.

    All that said, what you suggest makes sense, rewards should scale per damage done, and I think they actually already do. That isnt an issue at all.

    The issue is when you have someone who can definitely go in and max kill him, but when he is ready to raid Odin is at 50%, hell even if he is at 95%, the max that person can get is 2000 raid points and a significant decrease in other rewards. So what do they do? Do they waste their team to clean Odin off for the greater good of the clan? or does they wait for someone else to do it? Do they go into clan chat or discord and "demand" that someone else clear it out so he can get full rewards? What if someone goes in with a mediocre team to try and finish it and THEY also lose? Now a 3rd person still needs to clean up. All the while, the person with the full kill team is irritated they have to wait, the other clan members are irritated that they have to argue over who will lose out on rewards and waste their blood to kill him, animosity within the clan grows and the whole thing is defeating the purpose of the clan idea.

    I get what this thread is about... I also personally feel that it comes down to clan structure. If you have clansmen who cant clear him fully at least a few times a week and they are also not willing to be the on call clean up crew, then cut them loose and find a better clansman. That is easy enough for me to say, we have 30 of the absolute best people in this game and we are all 100% focused on dominating the challenge. We each take turns sacrificing for clean up when needed and we all work very well together. But it isnt that easy to have every clan out there be filled with premium players.

    So do the lower/mid-level players just need to understand that their goals are too big and they need to be more realistic? Do they need to just accept that the raid just may not be for them at all?

    I would say that the Devs did not intend for Odin to be solo killed. I bet that the way it works for most people, with a few people taking turns killing him until he is finally dead... that is the way it is supposed to be played. They needed a reward scale that goes all the way up to a full kill, sure, but they didnt expect it to be so prevalent. The whole idea of a "RAID" is multiple people focusing on a single target or goal to succeed. Is the focus on earning as many raid points as possible? Or was it maybe the intent that multiple people focus on killing Odin so he eventually dies as a group effort? Only the Devs know, and they dont seem to ever share information with us.

    TLDR: You guys say there is a problem, but who is to say that everything isnt working as intended and it is SUPPOSED to take multiple people to get a kill?
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  9. #29
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    @natasmia: again, saving space here... more than anything else.

    I think I agree with the underlying message of your post, as I am hearing it, which is that challenges should not be too easy to conquer, and that killing Odin is part of the challenge.

    Over time I recognize that I’m beginning to feel a bit entitled. A new insane dungeon comes out, and some of us old-timers expect that we should be able to beat it in less than a minute. Frankly, that’s ridiculous.

    However, you touched on two things that are central to my message.

    One is the potential for animosity within a clan because of the ability to clear/not clear Odin. I see it. I think you see it. It's unacceptable. And while you may think the answer is for clan members to specialize or to prune the clan, I think there is value in clan members beyond strictly their in-game ability and there is an injustice in asking players who are not as well-developed to go out of their way to accept lower rewards. In addition, the Odin process is anonymous. Like you said, if you don’t have 30 “top end” players, how do you even know who to prune? I absolutely will not kick someone for engaging with the content. The game shouldn’t be set up so I’m tempted to.

    Second, we do have some insight into what the Devs think is doable... it’s in the reward tiers. If they did not think it was possible for people to solo Odin, why did they make that a requirement to get 3,000 raid points? And why did they make it impossible to get to the highest tiers unless at least some of them members of a clan were achieving this mark at least some of the time? Sometimes I think we, as players, are underestimated. In the Odin challenge, I don't think that's the case.

    Personally I would accept lower overall rewards (individual and clan) in exchange for a system that didn’t “punish” developing players for engaging in the content. I would accept lower weekly rewards for myself to achieve this as well. I like Odin, and I want him to be a constructive force. My shtick is about achieving this end, not about getting better stuff for me.
    Last edited by Puntwothree; 04-17-2020 at 09:24 PM.
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  10. #30
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    If the clear bonus were 1,000 raid points and/or something small and personal, there would be incentive to go in an kill Odin no matter his health... and value in doing so. This would make sense, as bringing Odin from 99% health to nothing is still only 2,000 points. That last point of damage should be worth 1,000 points.

    The only problem with this is that I think currently someone could set Odin at 1% health (or less) and 29 people could log in simultaneously and kill Odin for 29,000 clan points. The raid system would have to change so this couldn't happen, and the clear bonus would only be rewarded once.

    I thought Maiden's "Odin is being attacked" message was a good idea; taking it a step further, if Odin COULDN'T be attacked when he was under attack already, we could have our cake and eat it to. The clear bonus, personal and clan. Strategy in who should be attacking Odin when. No more animosity between players. And no need to coordinate to a near-impossible degree in order to avoid frustrating partial-clear mishaps. This is the Holy Grail. I suggested the automatic refresh partly because it sounds simpler to implement.

    EDIT: I guess what I am suggesting here is the same reward system, but first 2,000 clan points are based on damage dealt and last 1,000 are a clear bonus. In this scenario, it would be possible to get 3,000 points for an Odin that was not at full health when you attacked him (so long his starting health was high enough). But this would not effect the maximum number of points (3,000) a player could earn for his clan on a single blood. Both early attacks and finishing blows from all contributing members would become relevant.
    Last edited by Puntwothree; 04-17-2020 at 10:12 PM.
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