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Thread: The Envy of All

  1. #1
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    The Envy of All

    Envious Talis seem fair, as written. This is what they say....: “... [some stuff], the AI gets to revenge on every attack, no exceptions, [some stuff], cleanse all negative effects, including silver effects, FROM SELF if [condition that is always met].” In practice, however, Envious Talismans cleanse Self and All Allies, making them an Alchemy Set + Serenity for All + Revenge + Effect Copying + Enemy Effect Stripping + Random Immunities.

    They are, I think, better than intended.

    Now we’re facing a situation where a meta that was fairly diverse is becoming GREDAN. That’s GRE + Redan, +Icarus, +Ancient Mariner. This defense has weaknesses. It has weaknesses you have to squeeze and contort yourself through, after which Icarus can apply invisible passive disable effects, your toons will malfunction unexpectedly (too fast for screenshots, at 3x speed), and you’ll lose anyway.

    If Envious worked as written, a little passive disable could go a long way. You could begin to poke holes in this defense... or any defense playing Envious. I think this would be the simplest and best solution to ensure the current meta doesn’t earn new nicknames and stagnate. That is: fix the talisman. It should only cleanse the character wearing it... or the text should be changed to reflect what it actually does (but this seems maybe too powerful for a 5-set?).

    Thank you... and yes, this is a Bug, which should be reported under Bug Reports. It is, in fact: in Maiden’s Video Bugs thread. That thread is better and more thorough than this one. Plus pictures of many impossible things.

    ;-).
    Leader, The Hobbitses (a.k.a. Down Under 2)

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  2. #2
    Administrator Durandal_LOTB's Avatar
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    In our next release, we'll be fixing Envious so that it only (and correctly) cleanses self if the condition is met.

    We'll try to catch what we can with any invisible Passive Disable shenanigans, but I'm suspect to believe that it may be a result the effect being applied and removed in quick succession so that it appears invisible. What that means however, is that the brief application of Passive Disable can cause some effects to not become available again until the affected character's next turn (depending on how the individual effect is designed to reactivate).

    You'll also get a few interesting new tools to deal with "GREDAN" in the next release as well. Hopefully we'll see players thinking carefully about how they wish to set up their defense teams with new offensive toys in the mix.
    "May the Lord smile…and the Devil have mercy."

  3. #3
    Senior Member Maiden's Avatar
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    Thank you for that fix Durandal! Btw, Are you guys keeping an eye on this thread https://forum.ironmaidenlegacy.com/s...755-Video-Bugs! ?

    There are 3 pages of well-documented bugs in videos and screenshots. Does the next tunning update cover some of them?
    "Is it me or is it shadows that are dancing on the walls"

  4. #4
    Senior Member Maiden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durandal_LOTB View Post
    ....but I'm suspect to believe that it may be a result the effect being applied and removed in quick succession so that it appears invisible. What that means however, is that the brief application of Passive Disable can cause some effects to not become available again until the affected character's next turn (depending on how the individual effect is designed to reactivate).
    It may be, but it would not explain why PD (icon) disappears in situations where no talisman or toon has the ability to clean PD at the start of the battle. Also, there are clear situations where the toons just stay disabled for the whole match no matter how many times you clean that toon. Being Moony the most noticeable case, where does not matter if you clean him, he just stays receiving buff and debuff until he dies and resurrects again. Or Warrior Odin, Or Redan, the same... all have in common that the only way to disable them is at the start of the battle. All of them (if they were disabled at the start of the battle) don´t come back to "normality" after any turn, only until you kill and resurrect the toon. Mostly happens with Icarus talisman bespoke interaction. But there are so many other examples (even Lilith bespoke) producing similar effects that I don't think the problem is the particular toons but the Passive Disable situation at the start of the battle. Again pls see the Video Bugs post in the Bugs section.

    Anyway, I'm not dev... I dunno... As soon as you got it fixed, everyone will be happy :P
    "Is it me or is it shadows that are dancing on the walls"

  5. #5
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    This sounds great. Thank you for the quick response!
    Leader, The Hobbitses (a.k.a. Down Under 2)

    With grave peril comes grave invisibility...
    Keeping The Eye off the prize since Rivendell.

  6. #6
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    Actually, @Durandal: question and observation. I have a maxed M. Odin facing off against an Icarus with Bespoke. M. Odin prevents all negative effects... including Passive Disable, but can be Passive Disabled himself at the start of battle.

    Here’s the question: if M. Odin is NOT disabled (Icarus is only a chance), can another character in your party still be disabled before Odin’s protections happen? And if so, should this passive be turned back on the following turn (as Odin has “prevented” negative effects)?

    Ok... now: what if that other character is a character like Moonchild, who (himself) can only be disabled “at the start of battle.” Is Moonchild now vulnerable to neg. (and beneficial) effects for the duration of battle... or can he only get beneficial effects (Odin preventing negs.) for one turn?

    This is all ^^ a frustrating situation, because if your explanation is correct, Odin will clear passive disable right after it is applied, 100% of the time, and you’ll never know if your character’s passives are working or not. (Also, with the passive disable/instant clear, “invisible” situation... it seems like passives of characters never come back online if they have been disabled... even characters with passives that really should come back and do in other scenarios, like “Block” toons.)

  7. #7
    Administrator Durandal_LOTB's Avatar
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    Some of us might visit the forum more or less than I do, but I usually check on things here at least once or twice a day.

    I might not always have time to chime in on some of these threads, but I do try to keep an eye on things and share important information with the rest of the team when applicable.

    We're addressing a few interesting things in our next update and once everything is solidified, you'll hear more about it sometime mid-month. Not everything will be revealed, but I'm especially excited to see how you guys react to some of the highlights in store for October. If you have a grudge against anyone that relies on revive effects, know that they'll have finally met their match.

    As for some Passive Disable info,

    If what you're successfully disabling is a "start of battle" effect, it won't trigger again even if the effect is removed. The same thing happens for any effect that reads in a way such as "once per battle" or "the first time ____ happens" etc etc. These are all effects that fire off once at the start of battle. Otherwise, if they were not start of battle effects, they would come back every time a character's passive reactivates, including if the character is revived - which could make certain effects tremendously frustrating to deal with.

    In terms of Immunity effects, there are cases where some are designed to remove the effect and apply an Immunity after the fact, while others are designed to only place an Immunity on you (meaning that any negative effects that are already on you will remain). Keep in mind as well that the priority of passive/talisman effects activating is also based on the character's slot position (Eddie, 1, 2, 3) which can affect how some characters are able to protect others at the start of battle.

    As for M. Odin and Moonchild, I can't recall in this moment how each individual effect in their passives are applied, but I can have their abilities investigated to as least ensure that they are functioning as designed and that they are also accurately describing how and when the effects are applied.
    "May the Lord smile…and the Devil have mercy."

  8. #8
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    M. Odin and Moonchild was an example, but it is not actually the most interesting example that concerns me.

    Really, I'm curious about the M. Odin/Icarus interaction. What I'm hearing you say is, if Passive Disable is applied and then swiftly cleared, a passive can be "turned off," at least for a round. What I don't know is, 1) Does Passive Disable supersede M. Odin's ability (I think yes, otherwise Odin's Ability couldn't be passive disabled...) and 2) Does it (Odin's Ability) act like a cleanse effect?

    Because if Odin's ability (preventing negs from being applied) doesn't protect a unit from negs that *should already be there*, to me that means that Passive Disable should show up and doesn't, and 100% of the time you can't tell whilst playing an M. Odin against an Icarus whether your units' passives are working or not.

    I've had, for instance, S. Desert Guardian (3* Gauntlet All-Star) fight alongside M. Odin, facing an Icarus and... this is very hard to prove, but I'm pretty sure (s)he never blocked. "Block" is not a "Start of Battle" passive, and in other scenarios (i.e., you put Metal on W. Undead Rescuer) it can be turned on and off in the same turn and still work (Rescuer still blocks). Was Odin's coverage failing to protect an invisible Passive Disable that was applied to Guardian at the start of battle? (A Passive Disable that perhaps was applied correctly, but I never would have guessed was there?)

    This is the main issue (visibility/invisibility). I'm fine with the mechanics if I can see them... but knowing whether or not your units' passives are working is very important. It changes how you play the game (for instance, I might spend power on a cleanse effect if I know I'm disabled).

    I know you said you're working on the catching invisible shenanigans, and I thank you for your good intentions. I just hoped to clarify my concern with this particular scenario. Making Passive Disable appear while it is there, or somehow marking "Start of Battle" toons as having been Disabled after they have been Cleansed would be very useful.

    Thank you again for your time.
    Leader, The Hobbitses (a.k.a. Down Under 2)

    With grave peril comes grave invisibility...
    Keeping The Eye off the prize since Rivendell.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Olevipoeg's Avatar
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    That explains a lot. My first Gauntlet S round team have 2 Envious sets and is practically unbeatable.
    Olevipoeg-2218

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  10. #10
    Senior Member Maiden's Avatar
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    Many thanks for your comments and info Durandal, very interesting and appreciated. Please keep paying attention to that Video Bugs post, I'll continue posting solid evidence there.

    The Grudge? that movie with Buffy the Vampire Slayer uohh ...haha not for real, finally addressing GREDAN and the Eternal Revival Loop (it sounds like the name for a folk band) can't wait until October (wake me up when September ends....?) ok I'll stop saying bad jokes xD
    "Is it me or is it shadows that are dancing on the walls"

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