Suspect Discussion: Prisoner

[Sparton_LOTB]

What It was Designed For
A character which supports his team by locking down enemy passives (with his passive) and abilities (by sealing/stunning).

What We Got
A character which defines the top-end PVP meta so much that he counters nearly every defensive strategy you can set up without taking a turn… and largely cannot be countered (as having a Prisoner sort of levels the playing field, but that doesn’t stop him from doing what he does).

Why This is a Problem

• Almost every interesting team composition choice that uses passives to help weather the first turn is nullified, reducing counterplay options
• Because the first turn or two are so critical (with many matches with 5 star characters only lasting 1-3 rounds), disabling all enemy first turn passive is disproportionately powerful

What We Could Consider Changing

• Make it so his passive applies a block passive status effect to a random enemy each round (reduce amount of impact)
• Make it so his passive doesn’t work on the first turn (reducing the scope of what he counters)
• Make it so his passive works on only certain passives (such as passives which aren’t first turn effects)
• Make it so his passive can still affect all enemies each turn, but only has a chance to per enemy (retaining his value most of the time while not being a sure thing each turn)
• Introduce talismans which have set effects that provide Damage Reduction Shields, Immunity, etc (giving non-passive options to survive the initial onslaught)

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Please let us know your thoughts on this character in the comments. Keep in mind that this is not a for sure set of changes we’re going to do to this character; this is merely where our appraisal design-side is of the character, and we want to discuss this more with the community to get a better sense if changes are necessary for this character or if this character is fine as is.

[Sag7272]

I'd personally vote for a tallisman set option, as it can make the matchup less predictable and prevent nerfing a character that isn't much more than what would be nerfed rendering him somewhat useless in PvE ...

A tallisman set have also the advantages of giving passive abilities to a whole new set of characters opening more diversity than a straight prisoner nerf would...

[zamasu]

I pretty much gave a few ideas in another thread. Glad that you devs are considering possible solutions:

1. Nerf prisoner's passive: "75% to disable one passive, 50% to disable 2 passives and 15% to disable all passives" or something along those lines.
2. Introduce more characters with the same or counter passive as prisoner
3. Introduce a new set of talismans, one that will grant the wearer "immunity to his passive", for example if gunner golden sons wear this sets of talismans his passive cannot be disabled by prisoner's one. I think this will be a great counter to prisoner's
4. Make a PvP rare "special reward" that grants the player first turn in any given match

[mikmar]

My question is:
Is pvp so nice to justify all the nerf that is spreading to many chars ?
I'm not included in the pvp beta test, so I don't know if it's worth....
Pvp influences campaign gameplay causing disadvantages, and I'm seeing only that.
What are the advantages of pvp that can improve the campaign mode ?

[Shaolin85london]

I don't think adding new talisman sets to the game will solve anything for pvp seeing that they can only be trigger on perfect attacks. Which we all know auto almost never hit perfect attacks without manually playing yourself.

There are already some chars in the game like Desert Marauder or Assassin pyro soldier, who got a perfect hit passivity, so they have a chance to trigger talisman effect. Furthermore they are dropped both at 4* so isn't so impossible get them from bos.

[invictus]

There are already some chars in the game like Desert Marauder or Assassin pyro soldier, who got a perfect hit passivity, so they have a chance to trigger talisman effect. Furthermore they are dropped both at 4* so isn't so impossible get them from bos.

I don't think I've ever seen an Assassin Pyro. You have one?

[Kaz_LOTB]

There are already some chars in the game like Desert Marauder or Assassin pyro soldier, who got a perfect hit passivity, so they have a chance to trigger talisman effect. Furthermore they are dropped both at 4* so isn't so impossible get them from bos.

I don't think adding new talisman sets to the game will solve anything for pvp seeing that they can only be trigger on perfect attacks. Which we all know auto almost never hit perfect attacks without manually playing yourself. So my option would be to only have his passive work on 1 enemy per round. And as for angel of fear which is not mention. I think his passive should also be changed to giving 2 members on his team a extra turn instead of all.

Just to be clear, the new Talismans we will be introducing allow characters to have an Immunity, Shield, Counterattack, etc. buff for 1 turn at the start of battle (they can be stacked to extend the duration). These Talisman Passive effects cannot be disabled by the Prisoner or other passives.

-Kaz

[slauki]

i appreciate the discussion and the in depth analysis regarding the problems he cause:

i have one additional counter idea for the prisoner:

what if "immunity" save us also from prisoners passive? so he cannot remove our passive if immunity is on.

he would have his natural counter and there are some chars which have an immunity passive or who can give the party immunity. that sounds good to me since it would give us more room for tactical maneuver. the game would gain some tactical depth too.

and yeah i agree with aristo, why should we be forced to equip our team with specific talismans only to counter a OP char?
but i could also live with that solution although i wouldn't love it.

i would opt for the seal one passive option or something similar. But the problem is, that very few chacters have passives, so if he seals more the one
nothing would change since there are maximal 3 passives available per match.

but my favourite solution is immunity > passive agression :P

ps: many more thoughts, but the broken machanic thread contain all relevant information so no need to get repetitive...


Edit:

point 3: also sounds okay, that he blocks all not first turn passioves like aof extra turn, block and revive. so we could survive the first round without beeing frozen or dead.
btw: what about if prisoner removes all passives, also the passives of the own team? we had that suggestion in the other thred, sounds also okay for me.

[Sag7272]

I don't think adding new talisman sets to the game will solve anything for pvp seeing that they can only be trigger on perfect attacks. Which we all know auto almost never hit perfect attacks without manually playing yourself. So my option would be to only have his passive work on 1 enemy per round. And as for angel of fear which is not mention. I think his passive should also be changed to giving 2 members on his team a extra turn instead of all.

If the new sets where to act as a passive unaffected by prisoner ability anyone could "immune" self from him, no nerf needed for ANY character this way as you could build yourself passives out of talismans as a solution if you don't have right characters..

[Mizrael]

A character i fell in love with already in my noob days in the campaign story, first play through (i didn't even know that he would be a powerful playable character)
Haven't seen him drop in a single soul i ever opened...sadly

On topic:
My vote too goes to the talismans. the prisoner plays also an important role in the PvE and any nerfing would turn him into a mediocre character, just not worth the slot.
considering his rarity, he should feel OP,same as other 5* characters i have never seen (CG,viking, tailgunner,pharaoh,aso).