Suspect Discussion: Prisoner

[Roquetas-5312]

With percentage chance to effect passives this brings up a couple of questions
Would he effect opponents prisoner ?
Would you take into account opponents toons that have no passive like CG and AGS ?

[Frost]

Agreed

It's what I said in another thread. Nerf him, remove him, make him subject to immunity, etc and the blue bat with the Siege passive is then the next "overpowered" character...except he's not hard to get

Would he really be? I think with the bug fix on multiple hits and freeze procs he'll be very balanced. Besides PDK and other cleanse toons counter him very good.

[R1ck]

I think Prisoner should be banned from PVP. Why?
1. All theories about making his passive not work with certain toons, only one toon at first round or whatever % for the following rounds, is changing the purpose of the Prisoner and will make a lot of people angry for not being able of using him as intended in first place in PVE.
2. About talismans, we all have put what we considere the best talismans for our toons, and now we have to change that because of one toon, no an option.
3. Whatever change devs decide will take sometime to be applied. And both options mentioned above will take a lot of time. I think devs should concentrate on what they offered long time ago, sacrifice or BNW.

[Nicko]

Would he really be? I think with the bug fix on multiple hits and freeze procs he'll be very balanced. Besides PDK and other cleanse toons counter him very good.

I don't see how Cleanse would help - I'm not talking about removing negative effects.

I'm saying Siege neuters passives similar to a Prisoner. Kills Troll shields etc. Nerf the Prisoner and all you're doing is giving a much more common character - the Angel of Pain - the ability to do what the Prisoner is doing now

[Arcturus]

2. About talismans, we all have put what we considere the best talismans for our toons, and now we have to change that because of one toon, no an option.

Well, since it sounds like new talismans have been planned for a while (before the PVP Beta?), and those may offer ways to counter the passive, it's probably just best to wait and see what will come of it and then decide if more needs to be done to the Prisoner (I'm guessing not). I don't think it's very reasonable to rule out new talisman sets because we already have the ones we want, that would make the game stagnant. Although I do understand the concern of creating a new set of talismans just to solve this problem, as it could be buggy, take a a long time, and possibly upset other balances. But if it's happening anyway, let's see what they do.

I don't see how Cleanse would help - I'm not talking about removing negative effects.

I'm saying Siege neuters passives similar to a Prisoner. Kills Troll shields etc. Nerf the Prisoner and all you're doing is giving a much more common character - the Angel of Pain - the ability to do what the Prisoner is doing now

I think what they mean is that Cleanse is a counter-counter to Siege blocking immunity passives - that is, blue bat blocks your Hellhound's 1st turn immunity, and you wind up getting frozen, but PDK automatically cleanses a random ally. It's not a 1:1 counter, but I think there are more small counters like that that makes Siege not nearly as OP as Passive Aggression. Particularly because Siege doesn't block all passives, so it's only useful against a handful of toons (not everyone with a passive, like the Prisoner).

[Frost]

I don't see how Cleanse would help - I'm not talking about removing negative effects.

I'm saying Siege neuters passives similar to a Prisoner. Kills Troll shields etc. Nerf the Prisoner and all you're doing is giving a much more common character - the Angel of Pain - the ability to do what the Prisoner is doing now

Nicki you are wrong here. The way Siege and Passive Aggression work is way different.

Passive Aggression disables all passives. Siege reduce the duration of buffs by one per round.

Siege for example does not disables Cleanse, so evento ir your team is frozen in your turn at least one toon will bem cleansed so you can counter the enemy team. My winrate against blue bat and death dog going second is 90℅. I used to hate having a couple PDK, now I just love it.

As I said Siege has its counters, Passive Aggression no

[scott-5496]

I like the idea of talisman that would help counter the Prisoner - leave him as he is I think as less complicated and gives us something to aim for in getting the new talisman. I have a Prisoner but not in PVP yet so never really used him for the grind so I have never used him enough to know his value in a 'real' setting. His time will come I am sure. For now I would leave him and keep him a unique character. Work on talisman sets that can weaken his passive I think sounds best and easiest. This them means less moans from those who have him (I do have him as I said but not really bothered using him much as not full power on talisman yet) and some new talisman we all have to try to get to counter?

Great original post and nice to see you guys working with the community on this.

Cheers

[Roquetas-5312]

Nicki you are wrong here. The way Siege and Passive Aggression work is way different.

Passive Aggression disables all passives. Siege reduce the duration of buffs by one per round.

Siege for example does not disables Cleanse, so evento ir your team is frozen in your turn at least one toon will bem cleansed so you can counter the enemy team. My winrate against blue bat and death dog going second is 90℅. I used to hate having a couple PDK, now I just love it.

As I said Siege has its counters, Passive Aggression no

FFS frost nothing is like passive aggression that's the whole point of this thread which you inspired and you have taken this off topic.
I get what nicko is saying even if you don't

[Nicko]

I just have a sneaking suspicion replacing Prisoners with a blue bat/DM combo is not going to alleviate complaints of "He who goes first wins"


But if PDK works for you that's cool. By the way Frost - your AoS is a beast!

[RCarter]

I get that PvP will be the way of the future for LotB. Totally understandable, as the endless grind for materials is not really sustainable. However, we will still have to grind the campaign for talismans, runes, and gold, and the LoL for shards. The Prisoner is a nice addition to some parties for those other aspects.

It's pretty obvious that the Prisoner was not designed with PvP in mind, and that's perfectly OK. So why the effort to fit a square peg in a round hole? If you (the Developers) don't think the Prisoner will work without major revisions, just pull it out of PvP altogether.

To me, about the ONLY thing he has going for him is his passive. Without it, he is a mediocre, single target attacker. Even with maxed shards and talismans. Having his passive only work on a percent check/first round/susceptible to immunity (don't get that one at all, Immunity comes off a passive, right?), takes the Prisoner right out of the niche role and puts him on the Isle of Lost Toons.

Ban the Prisoner from PvP to keep him as a viable option for the rest of the game. It's OK. The world won't end.

Besides, it's not like we can actually use any old toon for PvP anyways. It's not a level playing field to begin with. If it was, we would be having this discussion about all of the Corrupt Ox Cultists that are ruining the hell out of PvP for everybody!

P.S.- Sparton- love the idea of involving the community in discussions like this. Tapping into the group mind for something like this is a terrific approach. I hope you guys continue this!