Suspect Discussion: Prisoner

[slauki]

Boy, you're full of great ideas! Neutering the first round of Perfect Hit and accuracy sounds like a really fair solution. It's really that combo, combined with the broken Talismans, that have people up in arms

and troll shield, immunity, block, extra turn and revive :P

[satani]

well, what's next? This sounds like a discussion on whom to nerf next.
I have the prisoner, yet rarely use him. Yes, he is a good counter to all damage-blockers, revivers or the warrior troll, but his single attack and somewhat complicatet stat-scaling make him hard to equip. (mine runs a frozen set together with an invisibility bulwark set).
Talking about fearful encounters in pvp. I read somewhere here around, that warrior troll and corrupt general are a hard combo. (a friend of mine has 3 corrupt generals, have fun, when you meet him - when pvp is available to all)
Anoother long match combo could be any reviving team, like pharaoh eddie, pharaoh water ghost and corrupt rescuer. Add a golden son with thief talismans and you can have a very loooong match ahead.

Yet pharaoh eddies invularability is reduced to 2 rounds. As i remember, when i used him from troopers way back to beat underworld madness, it were 3 rounds. Just got him in my ~50.000 (feeled that way) sentinel soul and just checked that. (was he on the character tuning list? going to check now) Now i only used the pharaoh from a trooper when playing lightbringer madness, which is once every 4th day.

[konstifik]

well, what's next? This sounds like a discussion on whom to nerf next.
I have the prisoner, yet rarely use him. Yes, he is a good counter to all damage-blockers, revivers or the warrior troll, but his single attack and somewhat complicatet stat-scaling make him hard to equip. (mine runs a frozen set together with an invisibility bulwark set).
Talking about fearful encounters in pvp. I read somewhere here around, that warrior troll and corrupt general are a hard combo. (a friend of mine has 3 corrupt generals, have fun, when you meet him - when pvp is available to all)
Anoother long match combo could be any reviving team, like pharaoh eddie, pharaoh water ghost and corrupt rescuer. Add a golden son with thief talismans and you can have a very loooong match ahead.

Yet pharaoh eddies invularability is reduced to 2 rounds. As i remember, when i used him from troopers way back to beat underworld madness, it were 3 rounds. Just got him in my ~50.000 (feeled that way) sentinel soul and just checked that. (was he on the character tuning list? going to check now) Now i only used the pharaoh from a trooper when playing lightbringer madness, which is once every 4th day.

A three CG team should be fairly easy to beat if you have Hellhound or Artillery Dog and a team with CG and Warrior Troll should be fairly easy to beat if you have the Hellhound/Artillery Dog and the Prisoner/Angel of Pain/Death Dog. A team with The Prisoner and two CG, or The Prisoner, Warrior Troll and CG however, will be much harder.

This discussion is not because The Prisoner alone is hard to beat but because certain combinations of characters including The Prisoner (and equipped with certain talisman sets) may be next to impossible to beat. This is also partly because talisman effects process a lot more than they should.

[gmac]

A green bat with full shards is a good counter to the prisoner.

Use his power ability, that will give the bat immunity and invincibility for 3 rounds.

So you get to attack 2 round, refill your power points and do it again.

Guess what? His passive wont work, so it will not block, and unless someone removes beneficial effects he is pretty much immortal.

You can take the whole team with the bat alone, I've done it a number of times.

Not pretty, but very effective.

Cheers

Leave the prisoner Alone! (No, I dont have one)

[Arcturus]

A green bat with full shards is a good counter to the prisoner.
Use his power ability, that will give the bat immunity and invincibility for 3 rounds.
So you get to attack 2 round, refill your power points and do it again.
Guess what? His passive wont work, so it will not block, and unless someone removes beneficial effects he is pretty much immortal.
You can take the whole team with the bat alone, I've done it a number of times.
Not pretty, but very effective.

1) I've done the same thing with CR Eddie's Ghost. Not pretty, but effective (and for 4 turns), except for when I got frozen despite having immunity.

2) There's no problem with any prisoner team if you go first. I've found very few defense teams I can't cripple or destroy in one round (and the ones that do stand up usually need toons that aren't part of this broken mechanic). The problem is if there is a prisoner and DM (perfect hit passive) along with either a golden son (using the multi-hit proc bug) or corrupt general and/or some AoE eddie with freeze/stun talismans. Your whole team can get frozen every turn until you're dead. So no chance to use your bat.

[gmac]

Yes, I totally agree,

But that is not a problem with the prisoner having no counter. (Nice to hear that CR Eddie does the job too, dont have one).

And nerfing the prisoner will not solve the multiple hit/frezze/stun thing, thats what needs solving.

By the way, the prisoner is transferring silence despite the bats immunity. For me thats the only thing that needs fixing regarding the prisoner...

...meanwhile I made a second full built green bat until its fixed :-)

Against prisoners teams I usually go with both green bats, and two allies to cleanse, just need to use shriek once and its game over.

[Arcturus]

Yes, I totally agree,
But that is not a problem with the prisoner having no counter. (Nice to hear that CR Eddie does the job too, dont have one).
And nerfing the prisoner will not solve the multiple hit/frezze/stun thing, thats what needs solving.
By the way, the prisoner is transferring silence despite the bats immunity. For me thats the only thing that needs fixing regarding the prisoner...
...meanwhile I made a second full built green bat until its fixed :-)
Against prisoners teams I usually go with both green bats, and two allies to cleanse, just need to use shriek once and its game over.

Agree that multi hit thing needs to get fixed first. But I think the problem isn't just that there's no counter (he's supposed to be rare and very powerful), it's how it makes certain teams (nearly) unbeatable. Happy to agree to disagree here.

I'm pretty sure the Prisoner's Silence is intended to override immunity and not be cleansable (I think there are one or two other skills that have that attribute - they all have a silver icon instead of red debuff icon). So whether it's fair or not, it is intended to be that way.

And I'll say this - a team with 2 green bats would be beastly, at least to my team which relies on the AoF's extra turn passive. In it's bugged form, it would be really hard to get it to trigger if there are two blockers.

[CanyptianFit]

Gmac, your bats are deadly. Learned that the hard way.

Nice job.

😝

[CanyptianFit]

You've got a lot of good feedback here. What are your current thoughts?

Do you have an approach identified yet?

[Sparton_LOTB]

You've got a lot of good feedback here. What are your current thoughts?

Do you have an approach identified yet?

We've taken many of the ideas you guys have posted and added it to our internal list for evaluating the tech cost/expected impact, but we don't have a decision levied yet.

As other people have noted, we are interested in adding new kinds of talismans with Brave New World, and so we may just take into account answers for the Prisoner with that, but we're not sure if we'll go with just that or do something else in conjunction yet.