Sitting like a Log - Manipulation of the PvP Point System

[Nicko]

It's no secret the current PvP point system makes no sense if you want to be competitive. When you're near the top, you lose 20 points every time your defense is broken - yet win back 12 when you attack others because if you're near the top most of the opponents on your list will be under you.

Two steps forward three steps back.

This is even more pertinent now with the new matchmaking system. It DOES look like matchmaking is now about 1:1; if you attack you'll be attacked. Once the ratio reaches equilibrium at 1:1 attacks slow down. But for top players this makes no sense - defensive holds are generally 15-30% so that means you'll be losing as much as you gain and it will be difficult to rise.

I've seen it this week. I've been watching ShaolinLondo and Jofer in particular. Up - down - up - down.

Knowing I wouldn't have much time to play this Saturday, this week (with the new matchmaking system) seemed like a good time to try a new approach...

I would only attack those above me. And I would do it slowly.

The rationale being the following: As I rise, there will be few people above me to attack. This keeps my number of attacks down - hence the attacks on me. And it ensures every attack will be more than the 12 points I would gain by attacking someone below me - so I still come out ahead as attacks on me start to catch up. And if they revenge me? Even better - I get another shot at more points.

This is nothing groundbreaking and it's EXACTLY what Jofer had postulated may be tried. I had already made that decision so started the week very slow as I tested the waters.

The results? Maximum return on investment. I would see players 200 points above me that would fall BELOW me even if I was perfectly still because of the attacks on them that led to losses greater than 12 points. I had a small drop each day, but nothing like the hundreds of points those at the top see.

As of yesterday I was #7 from 32 attacks. Yes - you read that right - 32 attacks



As I write this I'm #10 from 50 attacks:



Where will I finish? Who knows. And certainly there is more to this game than score - this is a game and PvP is fun - and that's the problem. There is a disincentive to play frequently because there is a disincentive to attack those below you - and hence a disincentive to spend Ironite. I've been goofing off this week - switching talismans, trying new things - and my attack percentage shows it (though two of those losses were from putting in toons where I had stripped the shell talismans and forgot). But still - my rank is very high for a mediocre attack percentage.

I'm not sure how long I'll continue this approach - it's more of creating my own personal challenge (and frankly I'd rather be clearing lists) - but it does show how broken this system is. From a psychological perspective - it's been amazing not seeing my score plummet each day and feel like I'm fighting a tide that wants to sweep me back.

I ask those in the top 20 - how many attacks have YOU made? How much Ironite spent? Why should someone like me with 50 attacks and a very average win percentage be number 10 midway through the week?

Answer? I shouldn't...

[Caretaker]

You know mine, cca 150 attacks made and as much received. Not playng is the beat and you sure made a great point. Matchmaking and attacklists based on ratios is another good idea that failed. Pure randomization is required. Well said with fighting the tides, very lively put. And though I like crowd on top it is kind of demoralizing

[Nicko]

You know mine, cca 150 attacks made and as much received. Not playng is the beat and you sure made a great point. Matchmaking and attacklists based on ratios is another good idea that failed. Pure randomization is required. Well said with fighting the tides, very lively put. And though I like crowd on top it is kind of demoralizing

Caretaker - as I type this, those 100 extra attacks gave you 26 more points than me

[slauki]

You know mine, cca 150 attacks made and as much received. Not playng is the beat and you sure made a great point. Matchmaking and attacklists based on ratios is another good idea that failed. Pure randomization is required. Well said with fighting the tides, very lively put. And though I like crowd on top it is kind of demoralizing

great thread as always nicko, but i disagree dear caretaker. i think matchmaking is much better and more fair now, only this pointsystem and the crappy rewards for the most players lead to such ridiculous results. and your great defense of course.
atm i'm at 118 attacks and i'm rank 3. so really riduculous too. not a single refill nor extra sow from sacrifice. only my natural gained sow.

well it's clear tha we will see rapid changes now, because noone seem to have spend anything beside shaolin and a handfull others. and i bet they only spent a fraction of what they usually invest, so this will force the devs to make quick decisions, since they won't earn a penny with the current system. now that matchmaking is "fixed" rewards and pointsystem should be adressed as well and we might see some revival of the arena.

as said several times people need motivation to play. and the more you play the more you are bashed is not that a great motivation at all.
really basic psychological stuff. more rewards and more intentions to play = more ironite burned.

[Sparton_LOTB]

Well, your score isn't going down, but your rank is, and rank is all that is relevant for the top 250.

Not to mention the lack of Iron Coins. Obviously if you're sitting on a warchest that doesn't matter now (as we know many top players are), but eventually it'll run out if you're only making 100 battles a week, especially with things like Talismans, Eternity Soul Fragments, and more that'll be going through that store.

Ultimately, a curious strategy for getting rewards while minimizing effort, but you're paying for it in your own way. It'll be interesting to see how your standing is at the end of the week, as we obviously don't want to encourage not participating.

[Nicko]

Well, your score isn't going down, but your rank is, and rank is all that is relevant for the top 250.

Not to mention the lack of Iron Coins. Obviously if you're sitting on a warchest that doesn't matter now (as we know many top players are), but eventually it'll run out if you're only making 100 battles a week, especially with things like Talismans, Eternity Soul Fragments, and more that'll be going through that store.

Ultimately, a curious strategy for getting rewards while minimizing effort, but you're paying for it in your own way. It'll be interesting to see how your standing is at the end of the week, as we obviously don't want to encourage not participating.

Sparton - you know I love this game. You also know I've historically been very competitive. But when Caretaker makes 100 more attacks than me has the same score midweek - something is wrong.

I said there is more to this game than score - it's fun and addicting with a Maiden mythology everyone here loves - but there truly is a disincentive to play.

I really hope Jofer comments. He had 2600 - dropped to 2100 - worked his way back up to 2700 - now sits at 2362 - rank #25.

He's a really smart player and has played much more than me this week - but if we're focusing on rank - why should he be that far below me?

It makes no sense...

[Sparton_LOTB]

I really hope Jofer comments. He had 2600 - dropped to 2100 - worked his way back up to 2700 - now sits at 2362 - rank #25.

He's a really smart player and has played much more than me this week - but if we're focusing on rank - why should he be that far below me?

Well, as I noted in the week 11 thread, that is part of the reason why we're looking at adding in logic that reduces point losses for defenders when they lose, as intentional or not, lack of participation can at least feel rewarding in some ways.

While you and Jofer have mentioned in the past that many of your statistics are pretty similar, even with your current (lower than usual?) attack win rate, you have an impressive defense win rate, and your rank reflects that, even if it is slipping.

[Jofer16]

Yeah it's super broke, and like I said earlier, punishes you for participating. My attacks are super high this week because I did a ton of expirimenting Saturday night and Sunday in live battles instead of testing defense around the new talismans and meta. And then last night wanted some more data for my analysis so went on a quick spree. I was down around rank 50 and shot up to rank 2 in a couple hours, but like you explain that just opens up the floodgates. If i wanted to remain efficient I'd play exactly as you are. Anyone with half a brain is going to drop their participation greatly because all you're doing with high participation is feeding other players at your own expense. If people want to grind up all you're doing is digging yourself a future hole to climb out of. The game should be about participation, not manipulating ratios, and hiding/cherry picking. It's either a cowards game, or a fools, depending if you manipulate ratios or grind for rank relentlessly. Should be about sound competition. Just cause I had fun and played around earlier in the week I have to pay for it with even more attacks all week, it's a losing battle.

Contemplating not really playing this weekend but haven't decided. I like games i can grind and play if I want, this discourages that now and you just create more work for yourself with little results. Only people actually going for rank burning ironite are probably just chasing a rank they've never achieved before, or are happy the highly competitive are losing interest. Look at Enti, damn near quit because he sees through this as well and already tasted eternal. While the cats are away the mice will play.

Thanks as usual Nicko for your sound analysis and input. You're a breath of fresh air around here. I can see why someone would suggest this from the dev side, it makes less motivated feed off those who are motivated, we're just burning each other's ironite feeding off each others competitiveness. Very demotivating to anyone that gets it.

[Caretaker]

But I've earned more coins 😅 And that will show in 6 months. Non beta players are missing coins and we are at least 10k in plus. And your rooster and def is better than mine N. (Rng to blame? No. Can't blame the rng, just my gamestyle and provoking the book.)
Yes, matchmaking and the lists are well improved, you know I favor this over what we had, and I'm not saying the opposite Slauki.. I am enjoying this for real. What I am saying is ratio basis is not the good thing, for it is allowing sitting. So the system of ratios is hiding us. And nothing else. And waiting to stirike us back.

[Ringe666-7406]

Hi all 132 attacks and 110 defenses atm, 2325pts. My falls seem to be slightly smaller that before... Of course, defenses are on 50% lower than last few weeks at this time, bu tso are attacks. I have no more nerves and still no good chars for a good def, so I decided to just play my 33 SoW daily (24 + 3 + 3 lists cleared x2), searching for lists with weaker opponents, and try to avoid to be put down like zamasu and LeoSilvestre today. God that was painful. Defense is now equally important as attack (more than it ever was). For the n-th time, def loses waaaaaaaaaay too many points. I understand that dumb AI loses to Jofer, Enti, Nicko, gmac and all the other top players, they are all skilled fighters. But when I see that I lost to some 70lvl dude with ridiculous def, whom I beat in one and a half turn, I lose all the will to compete. Attack me 500 times, no probs, but don't let me have 20 holds, and lose 480x18(average)~9000pts. I mean, I know I'll never be #1 or so, why spend then when I can play for free and be in plus with ironite in the end of the week.