March 9th 2017 Update Discussion

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Originally Posted by Gmac

Hi Sparton,

Just to reinforce Slauki's post.

First, quick selection for teams/toons would be very much appreciated.

Second, and this is big, the issue with the Prisoner really is that it allows teams to attack with immunity first round no matter what. Top players with Prisoners used to be able to go with Hell Hound or Artillery Dog against non prisoner teams, so they would pretty much only lose to other prisoner teams. (I'm guessing ones with "taunt fest" or a full GRE + AoF)

Now prisoner teams don't even need a Hell Hound or Artillery Dog, and they can go with immunity against other prisoner teams too. I mean, top players with prisoners will have a hard time losing.

I recently pulled an artillery dog and after using it I can say I was not fully aware how big of an advantage going with immunity first round really represents, it's HUGE. (I'm using mine without any skill shards and with lv3 talismans just for fun, that's how big that is).

I'm convinced that this is the unbalance that creates the gap (showed in our weekly results thread) between guys with prisoners and guys without him, and the immunity talismans made it worse.

So, I think it's either taunt fest for everybody, or no taut fest for everybody, and I actually think taunt fest is necessary with the current AI.

There is no real counter to the prisoner's passive, perhaps the best thing would be to change it's passive to siege. Lot's of lv 5 toons but, really, nothing matches him, not even close.

This is sad for me to say, but I was wrong, some hard nerfing is indeed needed. :(

(sorry guys with prisoners!)

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agree with you on the dogs mentioned.. artillery has been a game changer for me.

Prisoner should be left alone and the chars that are "bosses" in the game should render passive aggression inactive.
AG, WM, CG could easily be his true nemesis

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Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB

Siege strips a lot of defensive options from you, but neither Angel of Pain nor Death Dog are particularly durable, and Angel of Pain won't do a lot of damage to you unless it burns most of that team's power on it's power skill. They're still very potent characters in the arena, and we are keeping that in mind when considering changes and additions for subsequent updates (including potentially improving Immunity and Shell talismans if necessary).

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thank you for the very detailed explanation, i really appreciate and respect that.

the problem is that siege takes away all possibilities to defend against stuns, freezes , taunts and blinds.everything else isn't that important i think. so basicly you are naked against siege.
so if you go 2nd, chances are very high, that you cannot take control of your team and so you will loose very high % of the time. then we have a luckfest, a tauntfest and
not a strategical game. okay i get that defenses should have something to gain some hold% but it should be something reasonable not something gamebreaking like that.

that said, the blessed ones with the prisoner don't have this problems when attacking, which is an unbelivable huge advantage. i condsider this even
as a unfair advantage, and i hope the numbers of the next weekly pvp threads will proove me right. i hope one guy will come up with
600 fights and 600 wins, and i really belive it's easily doable to win every single fight out there when you have the prisoner...not to mention the huge time and attacking advantage some guys
like jofer have.

anyway, still happy about the direction of the game, and i really belive/hope you guys will iron this out soon. understandable that you need more data, but i'm very sure
the metadata will show these imbalances very clear, if you put on the right filters :)

cheers

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Originally Posted by mjmxiii

agree with you on the dogs mentioned.. artillery has been a game changer for me.

Prisoner should be left alone and the chars that are "bosses" in the game should render passive aggression inactive.
AG, WM, CG could easily be his true nemesis

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A buff on other toons like you suggested would also work, point is siege has to work on Prisoner teams somehow. He already can stun for 2 rounds with his basic attack... No counter to his passive is out of order. Maybe that passive is too much for PVP.

Thanks again for clearing things up, Sparton. Really didn't expect to misunderstand Scourge a second time :p The "issue" there is explained then.

I'm curious how many skills there are that people misinterpret - especially when they aren't reading around here. On top of that there are soo many skills where it is just ambigious how chances are calculated precisely. Take Gunner Bomber Boy's Bomb as an example: What does a 45% chance to apply up to two burns mean? 45% chance for "something happens" and that something is 1 burn with X% and 2 burns with Y%? 67% per burn? Just picking something out of the blue, but I guess you are aware of issue. The explanation you guys give for new toons coming out certainly do help a lot preventing misunderstandings.

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Originally Posted by Nine

It would also be highly appreciated if you could adjust the AI of the Navigator. Most notably is that he uses Charted Course a lot right now. And a lot means twice in a row most of the time, even when at full health. That is basically wasting a turn. Crashing Rock and Scourge are never used and Roaring Wave is used at the worst opportunities. If Scourge and Crashing Rock can't be worked in it might be more convenient if he stuck to Landfall, uses Dead Reckoning when there is available power and heals himself when necessary.

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This is super annoying, I've been playing around with it and it seems isolated to arena. There must be different AI versions? He'll habitually try to heal himself, even in worst case scenario with your team at full health and fury up. But in secret locations, campaign modes he doesn't behave like this and wrecks shop as he's designed. I wonder if it has nothing to do with the heal aspect of the ability, but instead the attack debuff and defense buff. AI decides to buff/debuff and act as support instead of attacking. I bet if the buff/debuff parts of the ability were removed and it was a straight heal he wouldn't try to use it until needed. Other healing focused characters don't even spam heal abilities in this manner. The secondary enhancements of the ability shouldn't be coded to have priority over the main function of the ability (to heal). Or maybe I'm overthinking it :)

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Originally Posted by Jofer16

This is super annoying, I've been playing around with it and it seems isolated to arena. There must be different AI versions? He'll habitually try to heal himself, even in worst case scenario with your team at full health and fury up. But in secret locations, campaign modes he doesn't behave like this and wrecks shop as he's designed. I wonder if it has nothing to do with the heal aspect of the ability, but instead the attack debuff and defense buff. AI decides to buff/debuff and act as support instead of attacking. I bet if the buff/debuff parts of the ability were removed and it was a straight heal he wouldn't try to use it until needed. Other healing focused characters don't even spam heal abilities in this manner. The secondary enhancements of the ability shouldn't be coded to have priority over the main function of the ability (to heal). Or maybe I'm overthinking it :)

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I don't know where you were using him in PvE, but I bring him with a Warrior Troll and Sentinel Soulless Demon to farm GoD and he heals himself/debuffs there all the time, so unfortunately it is not limited to arena. I, too, had the interpretation that it is treated as a debuff. It is still strange, however, that he seems to be the only character who repeatedly buff/debuffs multiple turns in a row. Maybe Sparton can give us some insigths when they found out what's wrong. :)

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Originally Posted by Nine

I don't know where you were using him in PvE, but I bring him with a Warrior Troll and Sentinel Soulless Demon to farm GoD and he heals himself/debuffs there all the time, so unfortunately it is not limited to arena. I, too, had the interpretation that it is treated as a debuff. It is still strange, however, that he seems to be the only character who repeatedly buff/debuffs multiple turns in a row. Maybe Sparton can give us some insigths when they found out what's wrong. :)

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Oh weird, was doing madness uw game of death and madness bf point of no return. Was paired with warrior troll and AoF. Also secret locations for the day, same team makeup.

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Originally Posted by Gmac

Second, and this is big, the issue with the Prisoner really is that it allows teams to attack with immunity first round no matter what. Top players with Prisoners used to be able to go with Hell Hound or Artillery Dog against non prisoner teams, so they would pretty much only lose to other prisoner teams. (I'm guessing ones with "taunt fest" or a full GRE + AoF)

[...]

I'm convinced that this is the unbalance that creates the gap (showed in our weekly results thread) between guys with prisoners and guys without him, and the immunity talismans made it worse.

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That's a reasonable hypothesis, yes, and I can assure you we're continuing to monitor the situation. We just don't want to be too hasty with changing things, and we also need to work within the constraints of what the system actually allows (there's some potential solutions that we feel would be most fair which are not completely possible right now without some additional coding).

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Originally Posted by mjmxiii

Hey Sparton, just wondering, in PvP will we ever be able to setup DEF scheme/strategy? Seen this kinda asked before, but didn't see if it got answered... and just to be clear, some kinda "all out attack" or "defensive shell" style options at DEF setup screen just to give it a bit more importance and help the AI to play it a lot more like we would if we could.

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Step one for us is getting the AI to be more modular and capable at understanding different strategies in different situations, which has been one of the developer's side project for a bit. Once that's done, I'm hoping we'll be able to extend that further to having some straightforward "aggressiveness" options you can tune for your defense team, but I don't foresee something like that coming in the near future, sadly. Other fish we want to fry first.

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Originally Posted by slauki

the problem is that siege takes away all possibilities to defend against stuns, freezes , taunts and blinds.everything else isn't that important i think. so basicly you are naked against siege.
so if you go 2nd, chances are very high, that you cannot take control of your team and so you will loose very high % of the time. then we have a luckfest, a tauntfest and
not a strategical game. okay i get that defenses should have something to gain some hold% but it should be something reasonable not something gamebreaking like that.

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It's not bullet proof, but I've found that taunt teams that rely on taunting to disrupt you can be pretty easily crushed by bringing strong Warrior attackers to pushing the taunts, whereas those who try to maximize CC (by using freezing/stunning as well) usually don't have a Prisoner and/or Siege user, so a team cleanse ends up letting take most or all of your turn and shift momentum in your favour. Even those with a Prisoner won't do anything to a team cleanser. I'm sure there's other strategies that work, too (we've seen plenty of threads pop up with interesting suggestions), and if every team tries to build itself to counter that by having both Prisoner and Angel of Pain/Death Dog... well, that's half their team comp which is not a major offensive presence, and that has it's own weaknesses.

(As an aside, one of the developers in our office was doing some fights against one of the other developers earlier. Developer A was attacking and had no prisoner, developer B had prisoner and has pretty tooled out toons. Developer A was able to beat Developer B's team twice, on auto (and that was 2 wins without losing once, not just trying auto a bunch of times and getting lucky). Both sides are running 5 star characters with 5 star talismans and with mostly or entirely max level skills.)

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Originally Posted by Nine

Thanks again for clearing things up, Sparton. Really didn't expect to misunderstand Scourge a second time :p The "issue" there is explained then.

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No worries. Some of our skill descriptions (or effects) definitely can be kind of confusing... in Navigator Eddie's case, it's definitely different from others, but we felt it would be valuable to go that route because of how that's situationally better (or worse) to help make him a better or worse choice for some battles.

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Originally Posted by Nine

I'm curious how many skills there are that people misinterpret - especially when they aren't reading around here. On top of that there are soo many skills where it is just ambigious how chances are calculated precisely. Take Gunner Bomber Boy's Bomb as an example: What does a 45% chance to apply up to two burns mean? 45% chance for "something happens" and that something is 1 burn with X% and 2 burns with Y%? 67% per burn? Just picking something out of the blue, but I guess you are aware of issue. The explanation you guys give for new toons coming out certainly do help a lot preventing misunderstandings.

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Yeah, we've not had the best history with skill descriptions, but usually we try to find a middle ground between telling you the useful information you need to compare the value of one character to another while not overloading the player with tons of small details that may make that decision overwhelming for some people.

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Originally Posted by Nine

I don't know where you were using him in PvE, but I bring him with a Warrior Troll and Sentinel Soulless Demon to farm GoD and he heals himself/debuffs there all the time, so unfortunately it is not limited to arena. I, too, had the interpretation that it is treated as a debuff. It is still strange, however, that he seems to be the only character who repeatedly buff/debuffs multiple turns in a row.

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Originally Posted by Jofer16

Oh weird, was doing madness uw game of death and madness bf point of no return. Was paired with warrior troll and AoF. Also secret locations for the day, same team makeup.

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Yeah, Kaz and myself a pretty perplexed as to what he's doing, but he's definitely deciding to use that skill for it's other value or something at times where it's probably not nearly as valuable. Maybe to do with the random deviation chance or something (to make AI not completely predictable), so sometimes he'll psych you out and other times he'll try to do straight damage.

Also, welcome to the forums, Jofer16! Sorry about the forum registration problems you were having.

For 400 points it should be siege-free. We are humans not robots or monkeys to play 24/7 speding tons of ironite to have 6 sets, and even if we were just a very few toons can use them.

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Originally Posted by Sparton_LOTB

Yeah, Kaz and myself a pretty perplexed as to what he's doing, but he's definitely deciding to use that skill for it's other value or something at times where it's probably not nearly as valuable. Maybe to do with the random deviation chance or something (to make AI not completely predictable), so sometimes he'll psych you out and other times he'll try to do straight damage.

Also, welcome to the forums, Jofer16! Sorry about the forum registration problems you were having.

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Thanks! And feel free to send that trooper request again if you want. I didn't see it until a few hours before expiration, got sidetracked looking for someone to delete and fell asleep haha. Couldn't recall your magic 4 digit code to search.

And I'd argue that skill has no other value when it relates to deciding the characters action outside of the heal. There's never been a time when id increase defense and lower the attack of the enemy over any sort of damage dealing or super useful support ability, those are just add on fillers to make it more than a simple heal. Shouldn't affect the ability prioritization whatsoever for AI in the code.

The color for immunity talisman is not right, they are supposed to be a support for your team, they should be green. If a warrior has 3 red slots using 2 yellows he is losing a lot of HP, def and mr. So what is the purpose of a immunity when that toon is not surviving first round.
I have seen many people using them in arena but are falling easily.

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Originally Posted by Frost

For 400 points it should be siege-free. We are humans not robots or monkeys to play 24/7 speding tons of ironite to have 6 sets, and even if we were just a very few toons can use them.

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Slauki has told me he now finds Prisoner teams easier then non-Prisoner teams that have a Blue Bat. That makes sense

Weren't these talismans designed to mitigate the effect of the Prisoner when attacking a Prisoner team?

Seems like they've done that.

I have yet to see a Prisoner/Blue bat team for the reasons Sparton has mentioned. Not that it couldn't happen. But that's giving up a lot of firepower or other skills (healing/taunting/shielding etc)

So for those without a Prisoner and facing Siege, it's kind of like it was for us Prisoner players before the Talismans. I'd face a Prisoner team and strategy became more important - as well as a little luck. Bring your own blue bat and create a similar experience. If your Droid or Red Pyro isn't taunted you're golden. If he is - hope he's not next turn ;).

I don't envy the developers in dealing with this. The Prisoner SHOULD make a difference as my friend the Educated Fool says - he's the most desired character in the game - he should be kept special. But how MUCH of a difference is the thing.

I'll post my stats Sunday as usual. I'm not undefeated. But close. And I got to 300 without a loss. But many good teams without Prisoners seem to settle at the 93% win mark. Where should a Prisoner team be? 95%? 99%? Is a 6% difference too much for one character to make?

Don't want to derail the thread - but appreciate how the developers are listening but also being prudent before making sweeping changes.

Agree about teams with the Prisoner are much easier to beat now, not all of them because join him with GRE who is OP is kind of difficult.
So the Prisoner in defense team are easier but who has one in attack can beat ANY team , taking with him a HH to avoid taunts. That is why attack % is much higher for those with The Prisoner,

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Originally Posted by angelkelly

When can we expect some changes in pvp. It's getting ridiculously out of control. 99% of the people who attack me are people with op toons. Such as the mummy who can taunt my whole team without me getting a single play in. Like seriously what's the point of pvp if I can't control my defense nor my attack team. Might as well have auto playing for me since they already are. And please don't tell me well you can counter them with this. Because if i could i would and, NO I will not be force to buy something just for the sake of pvp. Like come on guys you no just like everyone else that pvp needs some good old tuning done (NERFS). Not just hey guys try out these talisman to see how they work. Forcing people to buy something instead of just nerfing/fixing the character at hand. There is no need for strategy when 100% of the players are just taking advantage of these op toons. Without much strategy at all. You call having a mummy in your defense strategy when majority of the people in pvp have him. Why? Is it because of strategy or his 100% guarantee taunt ability. Real strategy requires thinking. Not just throwing a character in place just because they bring something special to the table that is op. No toon should have the ability to stun/taunt or freeze a whole team. That what you call the easy way out. Not trying to figure out a good team set up. When you could easily throw on freeze/stun/blind talisman and kill there whole team without them touching a single finger. And sorry if I'm complaining. Its just difficult trying to attack someone knowing i will either be frozen/stun and taunted without much I can do.

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Do you mind sharing your full in game ID? I would be interested in seeing your characters/talismans to see if I can offer any advice.

Similar to the taunt fest, it used to be the freeze/thief fest in Beta before they fixed talisman proc rates. That period drove me stop PVPing for a few weeks till the fix came. Taunt is more manageable than that was and I hope I could help out.

PM me if you prefer or send a trooper invite if you have room, Killhouse-2721

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Originally Posted by angelkelly

When can we expect some changes in pvp. It's getting ridiculously out of control. 99% of the people who attack me are people with op toons. Such as the mummy who can taunt my whole team without me getting a single play in. Like seriously what's the point of pvp if I can't control my defense nor my attack team. Might as well have auto playing for me since they already are. And please don't tell me well you can counter them with this. Because if i could i would and, NO I will not be force to buy something just for the sake of pvp. Like come on guys you no just like everyone else that pvp needs some good old tuning done (NERFS). Not just hey guys try out these talisman to see how they work. Forcing people to buy something instead of just nerfing/fixing the character at hand. There is no need for strategy when 100% of the players are just taking advantage of these op toons. Without much strategy at all. You call having a mummy in your defense strategy when majority of the people in pvp have him. Why? Is it because of strategy or his 100% guarantee taunt ability. Real strategy requires thinking. Not just throwing a character in place just because they bring something special to the table that is op. No toon should have the ability to stun/taunt or freeze a whole team. That what you call the easy way out. Not trying to figure out a good team set up. When you could easily throw on freeze/stun/blind talisman and kill there whole team without them touching a single finger. And sorry if I'm complaining. Its just difficult trying to attack someone knowing i will either be frozen/stun and taunted without much I can do.

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You're saying there is no strategy in putting up a taunting team, yet you call for those toons to be nerfed? Perhaps you should spend some time thinking about strategy instead. There are plenty of ways to counter taunters if you think about a little.

I think there is a problem with endure and Angel of Fear. Through endure you are still alive but AoF thinks your are dead and there comes the extra turn.

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Originally Posted by konstifik

You're saying there is no strategy in putting up a taunting team, yet you call for those toons to be nerfed? Perhaps you should spend some time thinking about strategy instead. There are plenty of ways to counter taunters if you think about a little.

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actually he is right. every counter is very luck dependent, so it's only a 30% counter at it's best...

Taunting solutions:
1.put in high damage dealers? great...if they are not blinded stunned or paralyzed. never seen mummy/ssd combos without blind, freeze or blinds talismans. usually some will trigger.
2. put in a cleanser there? great, if you are able to control him next turn. even if you can, the taunted members used their turn already, so your turn is almost over most of the time
3. immunity is great, if the taunters are not paired with the siege toon or a prisoner. if they are immunity is useless.
4. puttins stunners/taunters in your team, could work if not paralysed or frozen. and CG is a blue character who will heavily suffer from the green taunters. a ssd on your own yould work better.
5. accuracy debuff works great, if you can put in the skill like acrid smoke. otherwise only a single debuff from characters like bluebat is possible, which will be relevat in the next round. unfortunatly you are dead then most of the times.
6. put in pdk, blue charcter who has disadvantage vs greens but he will debuff one allie....
7. bring in a prisoner along with immunity...wow actually this is virtually the only thing that can save your ass, every time.

sorry, but i cannot think of one single (non prisoner) strategy where you don't need hell lot of luck to take advantage of it. maybe i missed something, but if you prove me wrong i would be very thankfull.
if you need high % of luck it's not an stratatgy it's hoping for something to happned.

[QUOTE=Nicko;34068... But many good teams without Prisoners seem to settle at the 93% win mark. Where should a Prisoner team be? 95%? 99%? Is a 6% difference too much for one character to make?
[/QUOTE]

Hey Nicko,

Regarding that question, yes it is imo, because he is the only lv 5 toon capable of making this much of a difference. If he should make a difference other lv5 should too. And 99% win rates are too much, do we want that in the game?

Makes no sense that on Offense a top team with Prisoner can go 100% of the times with immunity first round and others without him can't. It's too much of an advantage.

And on defense, come on, once people start using those new talismans Prisoner teams will put AoP/DD in there, so we will have to deal with taunt fest with all AoP/DD teams, plus Prisoners can have Mummy and SSD with immunity too! So AoF/AoS torture won´t be able to stun, w/s Pyro flame will not trigger, no PDK to help, no DM with heavy CC team... this is not right.

Cheers
Gmac

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Originally Posted by Gmac

Hey Nicko,

Regarding that question, yes it is imo, because he is the only lv 5 toon capable of making this much of a difference. If he should make a difference other lv5 should too. And 99% win rates are too much, do we want that in the game?

Makes no sense that on Offense a top team with Prisoner can go 100% of the times with immunity first round and others without him can't. It's too much of an advantage.

And on defense, come on, once people start using those new talismans Prisoner teams will put AoP/DD in there, so we will have to deal with taunt fest with all AoP/DD teams, plus Prisoners can have Mummy and SSD with immunity too! So AoF/AoS torture won´t be able to stun, w/s Pyro flame will not trigger, no PDK to help, no DM with heavy CC team... this is not right.

Cheers
Gmac

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I totally agree man it's way too op. They gotta adjust the prisoner soon or it's gonna be the end with these new talismans coming in also.

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Originally Posted by treeb0mbb

I totally agree man it's way too op. They gotta adjust the prisoner soon or it's gonna be the end with these new talismans coming in also.

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Hey man, you have to clear your inbox! Can't reach you for days! Cheers!

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Originally Posted by Nicko

Slauki has told me he now finds Prisoner teams easier then non-Prisoner teams that have a Blue Bat. That makes sense

Weren't these talismans designed to mitigate the effect of the Prisoner when attacking a Prisoner team?

Seems like they've done that.

I have yet to see a Prisoner/Blue bat team for the reasons Sparton has mentioned. Not that it couldn't happen. But that's giving up a lot of firepower or other skills (healing/taunting/shielding etc)

So for those without a Prisoner and facing Siege, it's kind of like it was for us Prisoner players before the Talismans. I'd face a Prisoner team and strategy became more important - as well as a little luck. Bring your own blue bat and create a similar experience. If your Droid or Red Pyro isn't taunted you're golden. If he is - hope he's not next turn ;).

I don't envy the developers in dealing with this. The Prisoner SHOULD make a difference as my friend the Educated Fool says - he's the most desired character in the game - he should be kept special. But how MUCH of a difference is the thing.

I'll post my stats Sunday as usual. I'm not undefeated. But close. And I got to 300 without a loss. But many good teams without Prisoners seem to settle at the 93% win mark. Where should a Prisoner team be? 95%? 99%? Is a 6% difference too much for one character to make?

Don't want to derail the thread - but appreciate how the developers are listening but also being prudent before making sweeping changes.

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Totally agree that Blue Bat teams are harder than Prisoner teams. I got rocked 3x by a player with a Blue Bat team after I had a really nice winning streak going. After the 3rd loss I gave up. I have a Blue Bat so I just need to figure out my talisman setup for it to bring him in next time.

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Originally Posted by slauki

actually he is right. every counter is very luck dependent, so it's only a 30% counter at it's best...

Taunting solutions:
1.put in high damage dealers? great...if they are not blinded stunned or paralyzed. never seen mummy/ssd combos without blind, freeze or blinds talismans. usually some will trigger.
2. put in a cleanser there? great, if you are able to control him next turn. even if you can, the taunted members used their turn already, so your turn is almost over most of the time
3. immunity is great, if the taunters are not paired with the siege toon or a prisoner. if they are immunity is useless.
4. puttins stunners/taunters in your team, could work if not paralysed or frozen. and CG is a blue character who will heavily suffer from the green taunters. a ssd on your own yould work better.
5. accuracy debuff works great, if you can put in the skill like acrid smoke. otherwise only a single debuff from characters like bluebat is possible, which will be relevat in the next round. unfortunatly you are dead then most of the times.
6. put in pdk, blue charcter who has disadvantage vs greens but he will debuff one allie....
7. bring in a prisoner along with immunity...wow actually this is virtually the only thing that can save your ass, every time.

sorry, but i cannot think of one single (non prisoner) strategy where you don't need hell lot of luck to take advantage of it. maybe i missed something, but if you prove me wrong i would be very thankfull.
if you need high % of luck it's not an stratatgy it's hoping for something to happned.

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Use perfect hit passive to get around blinding taunters for a round or two. If you choose the rest of your team right, this should be enough to have either Mummy or SSD taken out in your first round. This works against many taunting teams but obviously not a safe bet against all the different teams with a SSD and Mummy in it.

Freeze and paralysing talisman have much lower triggering rates. Sure, it's a problem if they do trigger but that goes for most teams, not just the taunting ones.

There are entirely different ways to beat taunting teams using The Prisoner (as I think you are aware).

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Originally Posted by Nicko

Slauki has told me he now finds Prisoner teams easier then non-Prisoner teams that have a Blue Bat. That makes sense

Weren't these talismans designed to mitigate the effect of the Prisoner when attacking a Prisoner team?

Seems like they've done that.

I have yet to see a Prisoner/Blue bat team for the reasons Sparton has mentioned. Not that it couldn't happen. But that's giving up a lot of firepower or other skills (healing/taunting/shielding etc)

So for those without a Prisoner and facing Siege, it's kind of like it was for us Prisoner players before the Talismans. I'd face a Prisoner team and strategy became more important - as well as a little luck. Bring your own blue bat and create a similar experience. If your Droid or Red Pyro isn't taunted you're golden. If he is - hope he's not next turn ;).

I don't envy the developers in dealing with this. The Prisoner SHOULD make a difference as my friend the Educated Fool says - he's the most desired character in the game - he should be kept special. But how MUCH of a difference is the thing.

I'll post my stats Sunday as usual. I'm not undefeated. But close. And I got to 300 without a loss. But many good teams without Prisoners seem to settle at the 93% win mark. Where should a Prisoner team be? 95%? 99%? Is a 6% difference too much for one character to make?

Don't want to derail the thread - but appreciate how the developers are listening but also being prudent before making sweeping changes.

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I don't know Sparton reasons, but I DID see a Prisoner/Blue bat team. I won by the skin of my teeth, hardest team I ever got.

Prisoner teams are easy because people don't know how to build good ones. I win 99% of my Prisoner teams fights regardless if I go second. I mean 99% because sometimes they all focus my AoS and I'm pretty dead. Also, kudos to Sag, fought his Prisoner team 4 times and all were a draw, hell your corrupt Rescuer is a beast!

Also blue bat teams are big damn unfun to play against. Siege is way more annoying than Prisoner. But that's because how Siege works: For example the AGS cheat death skill should be reduced by 1 turn, but in fact it reduces by 2.

I don't know why the hell they made immunity talismans if that immunity can be negated by Siege. And yellow?!?! That ruins every build possible since many cleansers or immunity makers are warriors, sentinels or assassins.

Now those talismans just made Prisoner ever more op since if you go first you can't stun/freeze/blind/taunt him.

You guys pray that I never get a Prisoner, or I'll put an unbeatable team.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by angelkelly

Strategy is when you take something very average and turn it into something more.

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Exactly, and if you do this, beating many teams (not all, of course) with SSD and Mummy becomes easy. There is a thread in the PVP section with some basic tips against taunters. It's a good start to find that strategy you need to beat taunting teams.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nicko

Slauki has told me he now finds Prisoner teams easier then non-Prisoner teams that have a Blue Bat. That makes sense

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Slauki had no problem disposing of my Prisoner. Sry bud,burning lists! Now if I could just find that Gmac guy!!!

You will not see many posts from me here, I am not a good typist but I felt that I should add my opinion here.
I would say that I disagree with all of you guys who say that the new talismans (immunity in particular) are worthless, now I can go against a lot of teams that I will usually skip in the pass weeks and win most of the fights. Now I'm like a Prisoner hunting dog, I see a team with one I attack it 99% of the time. Their revenge hurts me a lot later because my defense sucks big time (14%-16% at the most) but still these immunity talismans expanded my range of teams I can attack and succeed doing it. And believe it or not I am missing A LOT of the nice toons you guys have, Prisoner being one of them. My advice to you is to invest a little in the new talismans, do some reading in here for ideas how to set up a good attack team, test it against your own defense many times and go attack someone when done :D
And last but not least: Heavy Metal to the end!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bradata

You will not see many posts from me here, I am not a good typist but I felt that I should add my opinion here.
I would say that I disagree with all of you guys who say that the new talismans (immunity in particular) are worthless, now I can go against a lot of teams that I will usually skip in the pass weeks and win most of the fights. Now I'm like a Prisoner hunting dog, I see a team with one I attack it 99% of the time. Their revenge hurts me a lot later because my defense sucks big time (14%-16% at the most) but still these immunity talismans expanded my range of teams I can attack and succeed doing it. And believe it or not I am missing A LOT of the nice toons you guys have, Prisoner being one of them. My advice to you is to invest a little in the new talismans, do some reading in here for ideas how to set up a good attack team, test it against your own defense many times and go attack someone when done :D
And last but not least: Heavy Metal to the end!

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Talismans work as intended! Problem is their color?,price & when equipped by Chuck. Not complaining...just the facts. Btw your typing is great...your opinions are valuable & always welcome!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by angelkelly

I looked at the thread and nothing work. Btw my user ID is elyse-6387. And by my rooster you can see I have some solid toons. But nothing to die for nor anything I haven't tried. Right now I have mummy, ags,troll,and Sentinel rescuer in my defense. But even that teams doesn't get my by.

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Not sure what to tell you. You have all the toons I use in my basic anti-taunt team. You also have both Mummy and SSD, so you could temporarily put them on your defense to try out different strategies against them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silentknight

Talismans work as intended! Problem is their color?,price & when equipped by Chuck. Not complaining...just the facts. Btw your typing is great...your opinions are valuable & always welcome!

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Thanks!
You are right about the price, it's steep! And yes, they don't work against AoP but then you know better that that AoP is no good in defense very much, I see my team lost a few attacks from you today ;)
I might have been a little harsh in my previous post, I feel I have to apologize :D
Sorry guys!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bradata

Thanks!
You are right about the price, it's steep! And yes, they don't work against AoP but then you know better that that AoP is no good in defense very much, I see my team lost a few attacks from you today ;)
I might have been a little harsh in my previous post, I feel I have to apologize :D
Sorry guys!

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Nah,coin toss been good to me today...still about 30/70,just at the right times!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by angelkelly

I looked at the thread and nothing work. Btw my user ID is elyse-6387. And by my rooster you can see I have some solid toons. But nothing to die for nor anything I haven't tried. Right now I have mummy, ags,troll,and Sentinel undead rescuer in my defense. But even that team doesn't get me by.

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You are usually in my list... good defense. Been many a time that I don't get a playable turn against you.

Immunity talismans help but stacking is necessary against Siege teams

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silentknight

Nah,coin toss been good to me today...still about 30/70,just at the right times!

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I never posted my stats in Nicko's tread but believe me, my defense can't hold more than 14-15% every week. I am kind of high in the ranks only because I attack a lot and same as you, trying my luck with the top teams all the time ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bradata

I never posted my stats in Nicko's tread but believe me, my defense can't hold more than 14-15% every week. I am kind of high in the ranks only because I attack a lot and same as you, trying my luck with the top teams all the time ;)

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Sssshhhhh!!! Lmao! Some call it cherry picking, I say if u wanna be the best u gotta beat the best!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silentknight

Sssshhhhh!!! Lmao! Some call it cherry picking, I say if u wanna be the best u gotta beat the best!

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So how do you like my prop on attack lists? :o
Congrats bradara on last week! GG!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caretaker

So how do you like my prop on attack lists? :o
Congrats bradara on last week! GG!

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I'm sorry but what is GG?:(
I am not too good on these short names.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caretaker

So how do you like my prop on attack lists? :o
Congrats bradara on last week! GG!

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Prop on attack lists??? GG=good game

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silentknight

Slauki had no problem disposing of my Prisoner. Sry bud,burning lists! Now if I could just find that Gmac guy!!!

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There he is! Starting early???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silentknight

Prop on attack lists??? GG=good game

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Oh, boy! I'm old! Thanks!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Caretaker

So how do you like my prop on attack lists? :o
Congrats bradara on last week! GG!

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Thank you! And good idea for defense you have, I hate your team, very unpredictable ;) skipping you very often...

i have an idea for the matchmaking problems, so i will post it also here, sorry for the spam :)

askora level 92
(max level 93)


matchmaking seems to put players together which it thinks are "similar" + some standard deviation. that'S how i understood it. askora doesn't fit into the mostly level 100 environment, so he is not on many lists. I'm pretty confident in this.

if we could look into the roosters of the other players maybe others have fewer level 100 chars and fewer talismans than others so that matchmaking seems to put him in a "lower cathegory".

it would be a explanation for askora at least.

why not creating a matchmaking, that is only based on ranks and attacks?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by slauki

i have an idea for the matchmaking problems, so i will post it also here, sorry for the spam :)

askora level 92
(max level 93)


matchmaking seems to put players together which it thinks are "similar" + some standard deviation. that'S how i understood it. askora doesn't fit into the mostly level 100 environment, so he is not on many lists. I'm pretty confident in this.

if we could look into the roosters of the other players maybe others have fewer level 100 chars and fewer talismans than others so that matchmaking seems to put him in a "lower cathegory".

it would be a explanation for askora at least.

why not creating a matchmaking, that is only based on ranks and attacks?

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You might be right, I also head a feeling that we are in some sort of groups and that's the reason why some of us are less seen on the lists of attacks.