August 2017 Tuning Discussion - PRELIMINARY

Well i remember one month ago when some people complain about generals being useless in pvp.. and the devs answer was that they were balanced as they were with the right team/strategy

Now .. i m glad they will be buffed couse they are 5* stars native and very rare toons but ---> not only the buff and the removal effect even total war cost from 7 to 5 ??? wtf

Sorry devs but my impression is that you make OP toons on purpose... leave them be for a month or two so the meta change and players have to run behind them.. then nerf and so on..
Couse it s obvious this change is not balanced, as were many changes in the past.

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Originally Posted by slauki

fully agree guys 100% wins is not a good situation. i think great players should have 96+ but that's about it. only thing that mocks me is that this guy is outstanding. nothing can compare with him and there is no real counterunit to him. it's not a bad scenario like beta prisoner but wrath somewhat out of line. same with gunner rescuer. i use this girl 90% of the time on offense and it feels sometimes like cheating to be honest. she is the other toon that is out of line because of this outstanding powermove. curious to see what the new changes will bring, but it's not okay if 2-3 toons are so much better then similar toons of the same rarity (fun fact GCR is a 4* ;) ).

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I see your point with how hard he hits, and feeling like you are cheating. When I'm down in the lower levels, they sometimes don't even get a turn if I win toss. Visions steals power, Wrath special, Artillery dog hits, lights out. Tho, lol, it is helpful when you let yourself fall and want to climb quick.

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Originally Posted by slauki

fully agree guys 100% wins is not a good situation. i think great players should have 96+ but that's about it. only thing that mocks me is that this guy is outstanding. nothing can compare with him and there is no real counterunit to him. it's not a bad scenario like beta prisoner but wrath somewhat out of line. same with gunner rescuer. i use this girl 90% of the time on offense and it feels sometimes like cheating to be honest. she is the other toon that is out of line because of this outstanding powermove. curious to see what the new changes will bring, but it's not okay if 2-3 toons are so much better then similar toons of the same rarity (fun fact GCR is a 4* ;) ).

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I guess it all depends on the level you define as great players. Personally I think many of the players in the top 100 are pretty good, not withstanding also having some luck and invested the time to have developed a team capable of competing. I'd say that the top 100 doesn't change dramatically from week to week. If you counted them all as great players, Attack ratios of 96+ means we need to be happy with Defense ratios of 3+. Not a perfect depiction, but I think it's close enough. My guess is that the top 100 is probably closer to an average of 90% win rates, which means that 10% is a realistic average hold rate. Yes, there are a few outliers but other than some particularly innovative defenses a lot of that is also based on luck.

On defense I think Wrath is only so-so, his main asset there is the buff removal. If he can't get power he can't pull off the power move, if he does then it's all luck for the defense to actually hit a perfect AoE to do the major damage. I use him offensively and defensively, but prior to getting him I used MCR because she does a damn good job of freezing the opponents. The biggest difference it's made on offense is speed. Defensively, he maybe helps out my SSD but that's about all I can hope for.

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Originally Posted by R1ck

Pay to win? Where is the ability and time to be able to be on high ranks? People there make that possible with almost the same toons we all have, that should be respected.

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I say pay to win, because for the very top that's more or less is what it comes down to. As offensive ratios approach 100% and defensive ratios get closer to 0%, the difference becomes simply a matter of the number of SoW spent. Not a direct pay as they're bought with ironite, but unless someone has a huge stockpile the only way to get a large amount is some extreme luck in the SQs or to buy it with real world dollars. I'm not complaining, I'm merely stating an observation. I have no issues with those who spend to be at the top as they subsidize the game for those who choose to play for free.

I think that this talk about opness is out of time, we need to wait and see the new talisman sets. Maybe we will be able to build some nice chars that we think to be not worthy and defend against chars that atm are really strong.

Imo we just need to wait a few days and see what we will going to have at our disposal.

I think that all points are valid, but just out of time.


EDIT: Maybe this kind of discution will be more determinant after the next patch.

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Originally Posted by Askora

I say pay to win, because for the very top that's more or less is what it comes down to. As offensive ratios approach 100% and defensive ratios get closer to 0%, the difference becomes simply a matter of the number of SoW spent. Not a direct pay as they're bought with ironite, but unless someone has a huge stockpile the only way to get a large amount is some extreme luck in the SQs or to buy it with real world dollars. I'm not complaining, I'm merely stating an observation. I have no issues with those who spend to be at the top as they subsidize the game for those who choose to play for free.

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i think you forget one important factor, and this is skill. skill leads to a extremly fast list clearing. if we imagine two players who play 24 hours every day with infinite numbers of ironite the better one will win. even both have 100% wins, the better player will be able to play 10000 matches the worse player will only be able to play 9000 (just an example ofc).

that said, noone will make eternal without spending a lot of ironite, but i really think that noone can beat gmac at the moment, if he pushes as hard as he can,no matter how much you spend. so pay to win is a factor but skill still matters a lot.

only possibility i see if you start from the beginning and get a 5000 points lead, this might discourage the others from hunting you. good old killhouse tactic, but otherwise you might spend a ton and still get chased down....

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Originally Posted by slauki

i think you forget one important factor, and this is skill. skill leads to a extremly fast list clearing. if we imagine two players who play 24 hours every day with infinite numbers of ironite the better one will win. even both have 100% wins, the better player will be able to play 10000 matches the worse player will only be able to play 9000 (just an example ofc).

that said, noone will make eternal without spending a lot of ironite, but i really think that noone can beat gmac at the moment, if he pushes as hard as he can,no matter how much you spend. so pay to win is a factor but skill still matters a lot.

only possibility i see if you start from the beginning and get a 5000 points lead, this might discourage the others from hunting you. good old killhouse tactic, but otherwise you might spend a ton and still get chased down....

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Not really skill then, it's more down to speed. But, in the end still technically pay to win as unless you've been saving for a long time you won't have the ironite to burn without spending money.

Last week the complaints were for Latex Lucy now is Wrath what's next Warrior undead rescuer let's say that devs decide to nerf them will you guys be willing to take eternal, are those toons really stopping you from getting a better rank or just because you want 100% win let's wait for next update things will be different

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Originally Posted by Askora

Not really skill then, it's more down to speed. But, in the end still technically pay to win as unless you've been saving for a long time you won't have the ironite to burn without spending money.

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I disagree. I don't care how much I pay, I'm not beating GMAC. Unless I pay him directly to abstain from the competition :p

I think you're right in that if you want to compete for the top 5 - you need to be willing to invest in Ironite. But to actually WIN Eternal? Or even jockey for which top 5 spot you get? That takes skill. And speed is a part of that.

Maybe it's just my bias, but I don't think you can take any Level 100 or above player - hand them some Ironite - and say beat GMAC, Caliza, Black Steel, Kamuz, Carlos, etc. They're not going to be able to do it. And ultimately it's not about who had the highest win percentage - it's who accumulated the highest number of points. And while you have to pay to enter the competition - buying a stock load of Ironite and then not being able to keep up is a real possibility if you're not used to the Saturday race.

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Originally Posted by Kamuz24z

Last week the complaints were for Latex Lucy now is Wrath what's next Warrior undead rescuer let's say that devs decide to nerf them will you guys be willing to take eternal, are those toons really stopping you from getting a better rank or just because you want 100% win let's wait for next update things will be different

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This. Some teams are hard to beat if they get the jump. Bra data kicks my ass 90% of the time. When I've won the coin, I win. I can't recover on my normal offense if he goes first.
You know who's fault that is? Mine. I have toons that could heal and fix it, but I like to play with certain offense. When I've changed it up, I win. It's on me, my skill, my decisions. I like that its hard.

With no new content, if the arena is a no brained, then why play? Why not have fun with it hard? Adapt. Be better. Win.

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Originally Posted by Nicko

I disagree. I don't care how much I pay, I'm not beating GMAC. Unless I pay him directly to abstain from the competition :p

I think you're right in that if you want to compete for the top 5 - you need to be willing to invest in Ironite. But to actually WIN Eternal? Or even jockey for which top 5 spot you get? That takes skill. And speed is a part of that.

Maybe it's just my bias, but I don't think you can take any Level 100 or above player - hand them some Ironite - and say beat GMAC, Caliza, Black Steel, Kamuz, Carlos, etc. They're not going to be able to do it. And ultimately it's not about who had the highest win percentage - it's who accumulated the highest number of points. And while you have to pay to enter the competition - buying a stock load of Ironite and then not being able to keep up is a real possibility if you're not used to the Saturday race.

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Obviously it does take some speed, especially for the Saturday rush. I'm sure that when you're not trying alternative offenses you can take down teams pretty quick. Of the battle videos I posted, pretty much every one lasts less than a minute. The only reason they take that long is because I'm too lazy to work on my timing on speed setting of 3. It still seems like most of the time is waiting for the battle to start and the battle results at the end.

Also, not everyone in the top 100 is going to be capable of the speed or a high enough offensive rate. So, skill is still a factor. I think you could take down GMAC if you really tried, don't sell yourself short. You have to want it more than he does though. :D I'm definitely not trying to knock anyone at the top, GMAC is one of my first forum troopers and I've got a lot of respect for his skill and his attitude in winning. There also has to be some reward for spending money.

My primary point as far as the pay to play is that if that is against the devs goal then they're system is working against that. Also, as they continue to hand advantage after advantage to offense it will only get worse with time. They do still need to have a system to generate revenue though. Without money, people tend to not want to work.

Some of the issues I see, especially after watching some of the defense videos. On offense I'm typically about 98% to 100% perfect hits (even blinded unless the character is taunted). On defense, it looks like my team hits perfect less than 10% of the time. Defense doesn't get to change based on the offense it has to face, etc. More new toons designed for the changed meta will only favor the offense and lower hold rates. The fixed talismans will favor offense as well. Ultimately you end up with a system where the top players approach 100% offense, if there's enough then defense goes to 0 and it's all about the money (and speed).