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unfortunatly i cannot test it myself becuse i don't have the characters, but i'm very sure that the talismans trigger much much much more then the 12% with the gunner golden son?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
or do you experience roughly 12% per character? for me it seems that everytime my whole team gets frozen every time...
I think it's still 12%, but you get that 12% chance with each hit. With the multiple hits, mine freezes pretty often.Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
I personally think arena is pretty fun, not dying when eddie dies is pretty nice. And hey visions got the attention he deserved (I TOLD YOU ALL THAT VISIONS WOULD BE OP AT PVP) i havent really done it alot thou, only like 8 times so far...
Looking at the ranking list and seeing so many familiar names just makes me think of how shit i am at the game...
I've only played against Visions Eddie and I really don't see what the big deal is.
I have none of the nicest toons. No General, RedBat, RedTroll or Immunity/PerfectHit, but still can do nice tnx to Talismans, frezee/stun + accuracy. When I learned to counter some defenses I got better.
No Prisioner, so Im using BlueBat.
For General/stunners, PDK with a cleaner (GreenBuzzlighter is beast) will gimme a shot.
But still dont know what to use against Prisioners
And sorry for the ones I got to hit everytime, hoping for new names in the future, hit the same fellows feels bad. And no Revenge here (ok, sometimes for fun)
Really no good way to counter Prisoners - you take your chances and hope they don't go first!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapathusara
Is it just me or are Prisoners popping up like weeds? Seem to be a lot more common
i'm gonna try to prove one broken maechanic in the game:
i played vs. one prisoner (removes passives), one desert marauder (grant perfect hits), one assassin son (multiple hitter) and some random eddie (i think it was GRE).
my whole party gets frozen 3 times in a row from the assassin son, who had some freeze talisismans. the chances to freeze a single ally should be 12%:
so:
chances that he freezes the whole party of 4 characters are:
0,12^4 = 0,0021 or 0,21%
chances that this happends 3 times in a row are
0,0021^3 = 0,0000000000089 or 0,00000000089%
now this could be a freak occurence, but since similar things happend quite often to me it's simply impossible.
another problem: in combination with the prisoner you cannot do anything against it, if you go 2nd, because the
passives are removed and immunity don't apply.
conclusion: a defense with this characters will win 95% of all games when it starts the battle, and there is nothing you can
do about it. feel free to exploit it :P
Yep, the "perfect" defense at this point is the one that always wins when it goes first. So if you have a Prisoner to counter all the good passives which might help you survive the 1st turn, there's nothing the attacker can do about it except hope he goes 1st.Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
I'm beginning to see why some people lost interest in pvp so quickly. Don't get me wrong it's fun and I like it, but it seems like it's a contest of who's willing to spend the most ironite. Maybe that's normal, I haven't played many pvp games. But anyone with a decent team can buy their way to the top if they want. I don't hate the idea, but once this goes live, It's gonna be even more of a rat race than it already is. I don't expect to keep up.
Yes, I think there are more Prisioners than last week out there, thus my concern. Since I only opened 2 Legendary Souls (Pyrored n Soldier Eddie, both dupes, how lucky) I dunno if it's popping more. For now, avoiding certain defenses, I'm focus on small victories for medals to get skill shards. Feels like a better investment than souls with questionable randomness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
i think they will tune it in some way, so that more players can play in a balanced way, that's why they have nerfed so many characters.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFreeze
now many people realize, that it made sense, but the process isn't finished yet.
don't forget that this is only beta. you can trow ironite out of the window as you like, but you won't get prisoner, CG or another top character for sure.
that's why this is not an extremly pay to win situation. yeah you won't be able to be in the top 5 without sponding ironite, but i haven't refilled SOW once if you belifve it or not and i'm mostly among top 10 in the ranking....
i'm very sure that more characters will get some passive that can counter the prisoner and CG so all we need is patience. i'm really looking forward to the next tweaks and changes, i think/hope this game has a bright future but it's still a long way to go.
Your right, it is still a beta. We'll see how the final product turns out. The prisoner and other characters don't bother me. Some defenses are tougher than others, but I've had more trouble from taunts than anything else
And I totally believe you about the ironite. I've only used some of the free stuff I get from special areas, etc. I'm staying in the top 15-20 with that, but if I bought $20 worth of ironite on Saturday I could prob get top 5. I'm not gonna do that, but it seems like something the devs would like to happen. Not saying it's right or wrong, just pointing out what I see.
Pretty much that. Now I see Prisoner in 7 outta 10 battles, and in combo with Troll or Hellround. Even if you go first the chances you lose are great, because Troll shields will halve your damage and Hellround makes impossible to CC.Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
Prisoner is top 10 ragequit in PvP.
You'll drop from 1400 to 1100 points. You simply can't keep up.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFreeze
If that was true my Defense percentage would be 49%Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
Last week it was 24%; new defense doing a bit better at 35%
I go back and forth with Prisoner defenses all the time. I'm not saying he's not a great character - he is - but he's not THAT insurmountable
Its 80% vs me, don't worry :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
Pvp was fun for a little while but don't see it lasting the higher up you go the more you lose overnight and nearly everyone you hit is only worth 10 they revenge and you lose 15 even with refresh I get most of the same names.
They need to fix the team as I find I'm going to the arena with only 3 ( most of the time it's fine then suddenly a toon is empty very annoying )
Its too hard for me, i was 1125 this morning, now im at 1025 because of how absurd the match up system is... im rank 54... they pit me against rank 80-100... like wtf
From what i can tell u need a maxed team with either red bat, mage soldier, Corrupt general, Prisoner, Rescuer to be able to do anything (i literally cant win anything cuz of how much people use these guys)
As always the fun is ruined by op chars... was looking forward to pvp to see what teams people could come up with... turns out everyone is using magus soldier, Corrupt general and whatever else they have... (with grim reaper usually)
Matchmaking problems apart, when you win you win too much, but when you lose you also lose too much.
Suppose I'm @ 1000 pointys, when I attack or am attacked by someone with 1100 points, wining or losing is +10 or -10 points. But when I attack or am attacked by someone with 4500 points, wining or losing is +15 or -15 points. Well, if I won someone with 4 times more points than I, gaining a lot of points seens something fair. But losing to someone 4 times my points is way punishing, because 15 points is nothing to him and 10 points is a lot for me.
Imo if you are high ranked and defeat someone low ranked you should gain little to none points, but if you manage to defeat someone so high ranked you should be rewarded for that.
You and Flying V seem to have the worst luck against my defense!Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristo4
It's like a dark cloud hang over your team when you attack 😉
Well if I attack someone low I get 10 points then they revenge me while I'm asleep without buffs I lose 15 points so basically I lose 5 points to attack someone lowQuote:
Originally Posted by Frost
That's why I'm 90 points below where I was this time yesterday so being high ranked and staying there is very expensive in ironite unless you have cg red bat prisoner and cr/gr
as said: the specific combination i described it's extremly broken, since there is no counter strategy and the multihitter sons stunns/freezes far more often than they should.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
the problem is that almost everyone can beat any other when he goes first. so the guys in the top ranks would be punished to hard if they loose 20 points every time and gain 5 for revenge. another problem would be that you would be out of enemies instantly since you could only play vs. 4-5 opponent. that would get really boring very soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frost
but i agree that the point system has to be adjusted in some way.
my suggestion would be to cut the losses drasticly, since it's very demotivationg for many players to win 100 points and loose 150 over night.
that will hurt the pvp-system, since it brings people to quit.
it would be possible to give lower ranked players more points, when attacking the higher ranked players without cutting the progress of the higher ranks.
but there are many ways to go, i hope they will find a good and balanced one.
i would expand the list to minimum 20-25 players so that you have more targets.
i mainly have the same names over and over again in my list and that is very sumoptimal for both sides...
yeah, mysteriously you seem to get first turns 90% of the time too, I just watch the match eating popcorn :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicko
I've seen this same film many times as well ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristo4
Since I posted this publicly I wanted to publicly acknowledge that customer support rectified the situation. Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillLion
I can see that few of you who wormed your way in to the arena are still complaining about the 'first turn gets to win'. And I haven't seen any comments on the idea of arena modifiers. Are you scared to loose that first turn win after all?
This is 'beta', test it. Put like titan shield of 20k hp on the start of the battle and see how that goes with one more turn to go. Why 20k? Wild guess. Well, since my team can make on average some lame 15k-20k aoe dmg and 20k-25k single target dmg that would make sure I don't get to kill all on first turn. Gives an AI a chance to pull a rabbit out of the hat and makes me think will I just fire all guns on my first turn. So, what do you 'arenars' feel about that?
Oh, and cya there next week. You just get too much of a good stuff there to wait for it to come out, makes no sense.
Oh, edit: why the hp modifier like titan shield - because it's non skill affecting hp. And with that kind of a modifier, no need for 'nerfs' on creatures abilities, you can just let them fire as they should and if you think it's too much, put more hp heh
I don't think "balancing" is the problem. That was the "be all/end all for months prior and I remain convinced it brought on far more problems than it was worth, especially with thousands of options available outside of nerfing.Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
the point is that pvp is fun and a sorely-needed expansion to the game overall, but it is not a cure for what all ails this game and it has the same potential to be just as boring as the rest as obligations begin to overtake enjoyment.
we grinded to death for months for maximized characters and PVP. Our characters were nerfed in the process, stealing all joy and much use from many (countless tales of retired toons continue). When we finally got better and better we find that skillshards are useless in both PVP and campaign and that while talismans have some influence on pvp, they are useless past maxed 4*/early 5* in campaign, and even in pvp, turn order is 75% of the game between teams within the same ballpark.
Essentially, LoTB with one exception has not learned how to lead with the carrot at all and that has been one of its leading failings, now and the future. The lone exception was october's achievment expansion- incentive to play. If skill shards play minimal role in character power/improvement and if rare and even legendary souls flat out suck thanks to this shitty RNG, who is going to continue to waste 3 hours throughout a day, let alone resources to maintain a spot on the top 25 or top 100? Some... at first. Then AS WE SEE NOW, they will become burnt out and frustrated with the futility of wasting their time on what was fun as a novelty but a tedious chore now with no meaningful return.
balancing never was a good answer and it is a worse one now. They need to give us a meaningful reason why we should give this game more than 15-30 minutes a day. That takes the form of USEFUL rewards, and FUN activities.
@Nicko: saw your full yellow team. Nice ideia, now I got how somebody's Tailgunner ultimated me twice in 3 turns. This time I took first, and even with accuracy debuff your GGS proc and get +18 fury (insta bar). Was a nice test, I think this talisman deserves future work. Would pair with Tailgunner or Carriage, but I have none now. As a defense, I understand the Desert guy with perfects, but maybe another toon would be nice. Everybody with rogue seems to much XD
@Frost: A special apologize here. Everytime I'll attack you, once or twice a day. Sorry. No revenges, tho.
In general: since a learnt to counter some passives and procs and start to use the halfh hour free refresh to choose my fights I got stable in the 1300 points, no refills (battling for skillshards). Im optimisc about the future of the game, and hating that BMW and Sacrifice are long anounced, long waited.
no problem :) I also attack everyone on my list... dunno how the matchmaking works, but I get the same names over and over, doesn't seen to work by rank...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapathusara
About revenge, lately I'm just revenging when my (really poor and noob) defense team holds.
while i agree with most things you said, i don't agree with the balancing part, since imbalance destroys every sense/fun of PVP.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingV
If you run into OP combinations and broken mechanichs i mentioned before it's becoming meaningless. Then having chracters xyz with talismans xyz is the only
important thing, skill doesn't matter anymore. That's not fun at all, that would really kill the game IMO.
If you cannot counter some specific actions (even in theory), this part is simply broken and has to be fixed. removing riduclous OPness of characters isn't "nerfing" it's actually "fixing" for the greater good of the game.
BUT:
If you do that, you should give the players the possibillity to remove shillshards in case they don't like their characters anymore. This would avoid some frustration since it's really ugly to work so hard to maximize the potential of a character, which you don't like anymore after the "nerf". That would also show some respect for the time people have put in the game.
It really is a shame the talisman rune drop rates were destroyed. There's a lot of strategies I'd like to try out but I'm limited to using what I already have maxed. I've been playing long enough that I have a decent amount maxed talismans. I'd like to mix it up a bit though. Why was it changed anyway? For bnw? Why change it so far in advance of its release? I don't get it.
Edit: drop rates have been adjusted. Ignore my drunken ramblings
I dunno if this is already known but just now i fought a random dude that beat me cuz his red cotd got infinite extra turns and killed everyone i had...
What makes the devs believe that bringing the time to refill 1 sand to 1 hour from the previous 30 minutes will make the game more engaging? It is a bad idea! You riduce the Number of games a player can have in a day, so definitevely is less engaging.
I believe they did it to make us use the sand refill. But whats the purpose of spending ironite to refill if the maximum weekly prize in ironite is 150 (if you manage to get there)? You can use it a few times but not much.
In my opinion it is a bad idea, extending the Number of plays makes the arena engaging, reducing it is not.
I hope they come back to 30 minutes for 1 sand.
sorry for the double post guys, but that's the right place for my previous statement:
Some problems i see so far with the PVP changes:
1. the playerpool of good targets shrunk to a handfull of players. it's really dangerous now to attack lowranks, if they will revenge.
if you attack them you gain 13 if they revenge sucessfully you loose 25. so this gives you a expected value of -12 points per SOW (assuming 100% success on both sides).
I see that it's good to protect lowranks from being the target of highranks, but this seems too far off for me. BTW the difference that matters is the difference in points. If between Rank 3 and rank 1 is more than 300 points you will also get +25 even if there are only 2 ranks in between.
now you have to focus on higher ranked and higher pointed players, but they are hard to find when you are among top 20. you will have to play
the same players again and again, and they will take revenge again and again. This could eliminate any progress and get boring soon.
But that's only my expectation for now, we need more time to investigate that, but this scenario is very likely. So far the old point system was far better IMO.
2. with 60 minutes for SOW to recover, PVP is getting even more pay to win heavy. You will have to rebuy a lot if you wanna gain some good rewards.
That was better before. In combination with point 1. this could be really bad. OTAH i really enjoy the time extention for SOW to refill. The game feels
less stressfull now. It's definetly better than 30 minutes IMO. But as stated before 45 minutes seem perfect to me.
But anyway i like the trial and error approach you guys seem to have, this could lead to a nice and well rounded PVP package in the end.
The way I see to protect lower players is simple remove the points deduction from pvp and have a system with smaller point gains ie
Lower ranks earns you 1 point
Even ranks earns you 3 points
Higher ranks earns you 5 points
Totally agree with slauki, yesterday night I was in rank 10, so only 9 players to challenge so I could win points, more than 2000 thousand players behind who will challenge me and i will lose points against because I will never get the difference points devs have implemented, it is too much. I have made rank 10 or at least 15 playing almost all the time at work and home without spending ironite. If devs pretend people spend ironite in arena is wrong, I rather spend it on farming.Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki
My final decision is to try to keep in high rank until tomorrow and see if I earn a reward, then I will quit playing PVP.
I hope they change this very soon.
You will have 19 players on the same rank Rick like I do and 1 above the rest as you stated are belowQuote:
Originally Posted by R1ck
I don't like the endless revenge, but with the current setup it makes more sense to revenge higher ranked players than going after lower ones. I'll sit on my SoW and wait I guess. Sorry guys, it's not personal. Limiting revenge to once and lowering the opponents point loss would make a big difference I think. but what do I know, hire Slauki. He's got good ideas.
3 hours before the reset everything is quiet...shouldn't there be fireworks all over the rankings?
everyone seems to be afraid to attack someone now. exactly what shouldn't happend for a healthy PVP environment.
the point system is the worst so far, it's not motivating to attack someone when you will actually loosing points by doing so.
i'm afraid that my considerations turned true. anyone similar or opposite observations?
EDIT: to summarize it: this system punishes you when you attack most players, this cannot be successfull.
I agree. I have to be waaaaay too selective about who I attack. I can't imagine this system will remain. Or at least I hope not.Quote:
Originally Posted by slauki